where is my bottleneck?

i use the sager 8690 on my sig for the occasional video edit which i do semiprofessionally for friends and family.
the prgrams i use are power director 8, premiere pro cs5 and sometimes after effects cs5.
i want my renders and on the fly previews to speed up on all programs but i dont know what is causing the bottleneck; if it is my ram or my cpu. of course i could upgrade both but i dont have the budget for that now. when i use resource monitor while the programs are rendering or doing a realtime preview both ram and cpu usage are at the 80-100% area. so how do i figure out what the bottleneck is, and which among the two is should upgrade:
ram: 4gig ddr3 1333mhz> 8gig ddr3 1333mhz
cpu: 720qm > 840qm

thanks

 

So when you are rendering the ram is getting down to less than 20% left? If so you could very well be hitting the Pagefile. That would slow you down. The ram would be a few hundred bucks less to upgrade than the processor. but It seems more than likely that is the problem from your description. Are all the programs you mention using the 4 cores? I know CS5 should be.

 

used physical memory goes higher than 80 usually near the hundred mark, i see the occasional flashing of the hdd lights too.
all the programs use 8 cores. the cs5 programs are at 90plus to 100% on all 8 when rendering and powerdirector ranges from 25-95% but it usually stays in the mid 75% area on all cores.
during realtime previews, powerdirector seems to have less problems since it uses shadow files (to fast render a low quality version of the edit). ppro and ae seem to struggle, even with lowered preview settings. ae in particular does seems to be sluggish, and does seem to waiting on ram with all the hdd activity and high ram usage. but how am i to be sure that it is indeed a ram bottleneck?
i usualy render from/to 720p h264 video in .m2ts and the occasional wmv and mov format

 

Certainly I would look at the RAM first.

But let me ask you this, have you performed the same types of activities on a desktop? The reason I ask is are you comparing your laptop performance to a desktop? It may turn out that even after upgrading your CPU you may garner that "I still need more speed" feeling in your mind.

 

I think it might be the system using page file though, 4GB should be enough. Try disabling page file, and if you dont see a gain upgrade to 8GB

 

i have not compared it to a desktop.
i just want a snappier response on my video renders and previews.
actually that is my fear, that even if i upgrade my ram or cpu or even both i may be 'disappointed' by the performance gain as compared to the price i spent. the problem is there really isnt much room for comparison as i dont see a lot of real world comparisons (and not benchmarks) on high end laptops for these programs.
what do you use your 920xm for if i may ask?

 

Have you thought of just saving up a little bit more dough and building a desktop for this kind of stuff? For the price of a cpu and ram upgrade on your laptop, you are more than half way on building a desktop that would leave it far in the dust. For instance, this spring I built a desktop with an i7 860 overclocked to 4Ghz, 4GB of ram, and an Nvidia 8800GT on a shoestring budget.

 

no i dont want a desktop thank you

 

my page file is at 1024gb. i dont disable it for legacy compatibility.
but ill try to disbale it and see how that affects my renders/previews

 

trvelbug,

When your renders are fully multithreaded, the difference between these two cpu's is a Cinebench R10 score of 9726 (840QM) vs. 8870 (720QM).

See:
Mobile Processors - Benchmarklist - Notebookcheck


For the cost/installation hassle and performance difference I see above (less than 10%) I can confidently say you need the RAM first.

Your conversions may be consistently up to 10% faster with the cpu upgrade - depending on the specific project, file and program used, the RAM can see you gain 60% or more, but more like 30% on average (for what I'm assuming is also a much lower cost.

As usual, with this upgrade stuff... can you buy/borrow the RAM with full return privilege? If you can, this will let you know in less than an hour how much more productive the RAM vs. the CPU upgrade will be.

Also, I didn't find any prices in this thread comparing the two choices? Although I would be surprised if the 840QM is cheaper than 2x4GB sticks of RAM.

You may also want to see this to further ponder your decision:

See:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...ades/441911-8gb-vs-4gb-ram-faster-system.html



Finally, to answer your question directly: your bottleneck is in both your CPU and your RAM - the best solution would be to upgrade both (obviously!), but not in your current notebook; but rather in any new model/platform that supports not only 8GB of RAM, but 16 and 24GB also.

I know this is just for friends and family (and not work), but it still takes away from YOUR time. Which, business setting or not, is not something to dismiss lightly.

Hope some of my ramblings have helped?

BTW, I would not disable the pagefile - instead, I would set it to 8191MB Min/Max. for the type of work you're doing with the computer. You should notice a much smoother system set like this.

Good luck.

 

tiller,

thanks for the suggestion. as noted by others above, i am leaning more towards a ram upgrade.unfortunately i will not be able to buy/borrow ram with full exchange warranties in my country. in fact, i will have to order it (ddr3 1333mhz 2x4gb 240-pin) online and have it shipped here, so testing is out of the question and its also the reason why i want to be sure before i purchase.
in all honesty these programs are really made for desktops as trottel has suggested. but the kind of work and lifestyle i have has me moving around to different places all the time. in fact one of the things i do is part time on site video editing.
and in all fairness, the sager 8690 does handle the programs i use quite well considering it is a portable system. it is only with after effects that it gets bogged down a bit. however we always want to push our systems faster and get as much performance as possible. unfortunately i am not able to overclock my cpu due to incompatible pll transistors with setfsb. i think that would have given me a fairly good boost.
but then again as you and others have suggested, it does seem like a ram issue and ram is indeed cheaper and easier to replace; plus the fact that its easier to sell the replaced ram vis a vis a used mobile cpu.

btw - im using a 5400rpm 500gb hdd so id like my pagefile as small as possible. im thinking that making 8gb will bottleneck my system all the more.

 

trvelbug,

Do not order the 240 pin modules: you need 204 pin modules for notebook use. (Hopefully, it was just a mistype, right?).

Precisely because you're using a slower HD is why you want to pre-allocate the page file to a good working size. With your pagefile set to 1GB, you are waiting for it to grow and shrink - while you're trying to get work done.

I know you don't have an SSD, but you may want to try this and see if your rendering projects are any faster (I have a feeling they might be...) - of course, only try this when you're on A/C power and you have good cooling for your notebook.

See:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/6655521-post143.html


I'm using a 100GB Inferno SSD and my MSE full scan times went from almost 3 hours to just over 90 minutes on 2.5 million items scanned. That is way more than any O/C or CPU upgrade has ever done.

Also, this user's 620M world coresmark score went from 627th to 154th by using the tweak above.

See:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/6658059-post190.html


The next (reasonable) step up after your RAM upgrade is a modern 7200 RPM HD like a Hitachi 7K500 or a Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid. Both will be easily 40% faster than what you currently have and the XT will have more 'snap' too.

Please let us know how this went for you!

 

After doing a quick check on the prices I was surprised at the price drop in 8 Meg RAM kits. They were hovering in the $400 mark last I checked. At Newegg they are running around $200. I also did a quick check on i7 840QM and they are around $600.

With that It’s more obvious try the ram first (if it wasn’t already).
I would say the difference in a CPU upgrade would be more like a 15-16% increase. Even if you could get $100 bucks out of your used i7 720QM, that leaves the cost in $500 range. That’s pretty steep if you are watching your dollars.

Also I agree do not turn off the Pagefile, chances are you will get OOM (out of memory) errors. This could possibly end up corrupting your data.

I was thinking along the same lines as tiller. Maybe down the road a new laptop with Sandy Bridge will be more effective at producing more noticeable gains. I know your laptop is fairly new so you may be thinking that may not be a viable option.

We have laid out your options; let us know what you end up doing.

 

thanks for the warning. i really thought it was 240pin
i have been looking into ssd's for the past month (most notably the crucial c300 128gb) but ill wait for prices to go down still. its a good thing however that they did find a fix for the pm55 issue, at the expense of increased cpu heat however. unfortunately a fix like that wont work for me as it s quite hot here in the philippines.
i also thought of getting a momentus xt but got turned off with all the quality/rma issues. rma can be an absolute nightmare if you have to contend with international shipping and such. i am waiting for some other company (WD) to follow suit and offer an XT clone, or something a lil more robust (8gb NAND).

 

thanks for the heads up. my sis is heading to the u.s. this month and ill see if i can order a the sticks from newegg. would you be so kind as to post a link
im also looking at sandy bridge, but maybe the 2nd iteration at 2h 2011. i also have a feeling that the prices of the 920/940xm's will drop when sandybridge arrives and it may be a good time to upgrade.

 

Here ya go.

Newegg.com - Computer Hardware,Memory,Laptop Memory,204-Pin DDR3 SO-DIMM,8GB (2 x 4GB)

 

thanks
10char

 

Like tilleroftheearth I also thought that the PM55 powersaving may be limiting your performance. Even if you don't use an SSD.

 

are you saying that it affects hdd's also?
fwiw im on performance mode however i saw in the thread that it affects ssd's no matter what mode you are on.

 

It may affect HDDs, I haven't been able to test it.

Your situation reminded me of this:
"I have already noticed a big improvement in my Nikon photo software when scrolling through very large (400+ 20MB) image files, the images now scroll rapidly at full res with no hesitation or pauses which always happened before....."
http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...ow-capped-ssd-performance-15.html#post6655755

 

mate , upgrade RAM.. $200 for 8GB kit is very cheap now.. sell ur old RAM so money spent is minimum. next get a 500GB seagate momentus XT and lastly get a $500 OEM 920XM.. ur sager's complete

 

Glad I pointed the # of pins out to you then!

As to the increased heat by enabling the 'disable idle states' - this is only during idle that they increase. Since you're fully utilizing all the cores when you're rendering, the temperatures at full tilt should stay the same for you, but I'm hoping with greater performance too (shorter rendering times).

I'm going to give this a try on my VAIO, but it has an XT Hybrid inside and this tweak may affect the drive even though the SSD portion is 'hidden' from the O/S.

In your situation, I would not hesitate to try it - at the worst, you simply switch it off if all it does is heat up the room. But the potential for increased performance is greater than getting the 840QM for your notebook.

Example: on my Inferno SSD (I know, I know, it's an SSD ) the full scan time of 2.5 million files was just under 3 hours - with the 'disable idle states' tweak enabled (and selected in the power settings options) the full scan time when to just over 90 minutes - while I was using the computer 'normally'.

Your call of course, but for someone that was considering attempting to upgrade the CPU on their machine, this 'tweak' is much less stressful to evaluate, I think.

Good luck.

 

ill have to read thru that thread again.
i read the first few pages when it came out but havent really read past page 6 or so, since i dont intend on getting an ssd soon.
good to know a 'solution' has been found. however in my case i believe its really a matter of cpu and ram.

 

thats kinda the plan, but ill do it step by step. ill also have ot get a more robust psu for the 920xm.
i was actually looking at the XT before a ram/cpu upgrade but i kinda got turned off by the number of rma's. ill probably wait for the 2nd gen or other companies t come up with similar solutions.

 

ok maybe ill give it a go.
could you give me a summary on how to 'disable idle states'. i dont wanna read thru the pm55 thread...

edit: i just saw othonda's post in the pm55 thread and it seems it had no effect on his hitachi hdd.

 

Travel,

I performed a test to see if this disable idle states effects standard HD and it does not. If you see any change it will be because of the processor.

 

I would tend to think that too. If you could borrow an SSD that would be interesting to try though. Sometimes the bottleneck is in other places then we expect.

 

that is true. and the recommended system for premiere pro and ae is actually 2hhd's one, with the source files and one for output.
unfortunately, ssd's are few and far between here in the philippines, and cutting-edge storage is still 7200rpm hdd's nad 10k hdd's for desktops. although im sure there are a few early adopters, i dont know anyone here who has switched over to ssd's. also the only ssd's for sale here are the intel g2's which i consider vastly overpriced.
although with my specific concerns i really feel its a ram/cpu thing but it wouldve been nice to see just how an ssd would affect rendering and preview performance.

 

which one would you suggest brandwise?

 

Brand wise I have tried out and like Crucial, Corsair and Mushkin. I have no experience with OCZ and Geil but they have good brand reputation. Wintec is probably the most generic and unknown brand. It’s hard to recommend a brand as they all pretty much will perform the same and have lifetime warranty. Maybe the best thing to check into is what would be the easiest brand to deal with locally if you had a warranty issue.

 

thanks for the suggestions.
i think whatever brand i choose wont make much difference warranty wise as im sure they all dont have any local presence in my country. the easiest way to avail of a warranty would probably be to ship them back to the u.s.
i tried to look for some ddr3 1333 4gig ram chips this morning in some computer stores. seems like none of them carry it yet. ill look for another week or so before i decide to get one online (usa).

 

Exactly. Ram is really just a commodity since all the "brands" just repackage chips from a handful of manufacturers and don't stick with any particular manufacturer.

 

are u sure? From what i've read , XT RMA's have been extermely low..

 

yeah thats what i see in newegg and thats also what i read in the xt thread


edit:
have you gotten yours?
i like your combo c300 and xt

 

Comming next week ... Just got the tracking number.. waiting for it to update.