*HP EliteBook 8740w Owners Lounge - PART 1*

Well, it isn't magical. You have to code for it, but the idea of these APIs is to make it as easy as possible to do so, and there are libraries of common things that one might want to do using them.

CPUs *can* parallel process, and technology for making that happen more easily / semi-automatically already exists - if programs are "multi-threaded" the OS can farm them out to free cores to run side-by-side, and one can even write explicit instructions regarding division of labor. Intel's HyperThreading (that makes every physical core look like 2 cores) is to a large degree a clever way of sorting incoming instructions so that one core [which has a lot of specialized subunits] can get more done "at once". It doesn't actually double performance, and it requires extra work from both the OS (splitting workloads optimally between the virtual processors) and the processor (handling the two instruction streams); some of the processor die area is dedicated just to making HT happen, but the gains generally outweigh the costs (particularly because any modern OS is running a LOT of processes at once, and many applications are complex enough to be threaded effectively).

The obvious and easy use for the small number of parallel cores on a CPU is to let several programs execute simultaneously - the OS can trivially do this separation (no need to do anything special to make sure instructions don't happen in the wrong order, etc), and this is [loosely] one reason that on multicore machine, a hanging program does not lock up the whole system as frequently as on a single core machine. It also improves performance when multitasking because the CPU doesn't have to keep changing jobs between all the programs (each change costs some time).

The thing is, the architecture of CPUs and GPUs is fundamentally different. CPUs are *way* faster at many kinds of computation, but one machine generally has no more than 16-24 virtual cores (on a 2-processor machine with quads or hexes), whereas a GPU is very good at certain types of [particularly repetitive] manipulation of large streams of data, and can have hundreds of shaders/stream processors (recent ATI cards have 1600 unified shaders) to do those manipulations in parallel.

If you're doing image or video processing, you can send small blocks down those pipes in parallel to get a locally simple job done on a large image/frame quickly. A lot of data processing requires moving tons of data through simple changes, and that's what GPUs are really good at; they are also optimized for certain types of mathematical operations, but worse at others than a CPU.

That's a really general, glossed-over look at the difference. There *is* a reason that CPUs are not built like GPUs - they're doing a different job. In a simple example, certain programs will perform better on a dual-core than a quad-core CPU of the same generation simply because the dual can have a faster clock and if the instructions all have to happen in order, speed wins. Most computation is not suited to significant parallelization, so you want to have a powerful, general-purpose chip to handle that stuff (CPU), and a separate GPU with a huge set of weaker processors to do most of the work for things like graphics (or physics simulation, etc.).

 

a hah, this is so cool .

So from what I've read CPU can parallel process using the HT technology. CPU can compute in serial and parallel and can do almost any algorithm (multi-tasking and all purpose processor) while a GPU has many cores (there weaker) and there better at vast data manipulations and such and are able to do some specialized algorithms

 

Haha, that clevo is a monster in every aspect. Very clunky looking.
They actually use desktop CPUs for that.

The M18X.....looks like wishful thinking for now. Unless you want to keep playing the waiting game.
Alienware computers definitely offer great specs. Although the main advantage seems to be the SLI configuration options. Again, mainly for gamers.
Those childish, gamer-oriented designs are not my cup of tea.
I would look silly with that thing in the middle of a meeting while trying to discuss an important project.

Now, now, I want everybody to take me serious...pay no attention to the alien head with glowing eyes. LMAO :laugh:

 

LMAO :laugh: the alien head with the glowing eyes is the unknown :confused2:

 

I'm getting ready to reinstall the OS in what will likely be a massive waste of time. Wish me luck.

 

goodluck

 

I'm messing around on my old Sony, I now hate 1280x800 resolution, bleh. I do have to give props to the colors of this old faded CFFL screen, the gloss finish does help when the lighting is just right. There's not much I miss about this machine.

 

If you're surrounded by complete snobs and square-thinkers at work - turn off the lights.

I made quite a few strong business connections just by being myself regardless of the cliche/norms/etc.
What could be more pathetic than a bunch people in 100% formal dress, making serious faces and talking like educated zombies about things they don't even understand - C'mon.

 

Aikimox read this (sorry if its crazY)

Alright hear is the dealio with my problem yah know.

So i need a multipurpose laptop for my 4 years in university. Im doing a major in Aerospace engineering, i might specialize in jet propulsion and HE physics/Astrophysics. I don't remember correctly but as a kid i have an aspiration/inspiration/dream of the unknown (hard to explain, mind consuming :errr: , it even confuses me). So i decided to take aerospace for the research. That was the background information. Now i need a laptop that can also be a desktop replacement, as I can't take my desktop with me because i'll be at the dorm. SO now what I plan to do with the laptop is to do word processing, labs, internet research. I would also download and play the latest games such as the mmorpg's, rpg's fps and such. I will also be watching high quality movies through youtube and from DVDrip, blueray rip avi files. I will be listening to music, i will be testing out alot of tools, some crazy mods and such. I will be trying to make mods. For school purposes and for fun to i will be using 3DS MAX, MAYA and such. I will also use CAD I believe. So the whole Auto desk entourage. I will also for fun use ADOBE CS5 (some tools like aftereffects, photo shop and sound booth). Now for my personal gain, fun and for school, I will be doing internet research and maybe even data manipulation, or authenticity check of say some videos or such. (now the whole authenticity check won't be used all the time). I would also do research and collect data and create a database of sort (of the unknown) full of videos, audios, charts and files. I will also be writing simulations and such as well, part of my computational sciences and for physics courses. I will also be exploring with this laptop. So I will be carrying it around everywhere. Now i believe that I will be (at one time or the other) doing programing of some sort (FORTRAN or C most probably) so idk OpenCL or CUDA might help. And I believe that's what I would be doing, as on my desktop i do most of those things. By most i mean i don't do any engineering/scientific computation as of yet, because i need learn it first

Im now confused as because im kinda a lil scared buying online, i never bought online ever in my life

 

Generally right. Any multi-core CPUs does work in parallel [that simply means running more than one stream of instructions at once]. HT is a way to increase parallelism on a fixed number of cores (including single-core P4 chips). The CPU's parallel processing is generally used (by the OS) to run different programs at the same time, and sometimes different parts of a multi-threaded program at the same time. The latter requires careful programming because you have to make sure that you don't get important operations out of order - if you're interested in the mechanics, look up locking and concurrency.

GPUs are generally used by one process at a time - the pipelines are given small programs (in a special language) to tell them what to do, then the application (being run by the CPU) feeds data to them as fast as they can take it.

If you want to really learn what's going on "under the hood", take an Operating Systems course (concurrency, etc) or a Graphics course (shader programming). A Physical Simulation course will likely employ these tools, but not go into how exactly they're working.

 

..............

 

ahh alright. So bro look at the post above you, i wrote down my whole deal so read it and suggest me stuff

 

@ True Sultan, IIRC, I answered your question a long time ago - you have 3 choices to fit your requirements - M6500 (Dell), 8740w(HP) and W70xx(Lenovo). They are almost identical in specs, performance and quality. Choose whichever you like.
I'd advise you to go for a 15" lappy but you also want to game on it, so - 17".

@ RampageII,
Lol, man what do you have against the glowing head, anyway? Childhood memories? Horrible abduction experience?
I almost never even turn it on. On the other hand, this beast has the absolute build quality (but you can only realize it when you touch it), one of the best cooling systems in laptops (and that is very important, don't you think?), divine keyboard (and I've had ThinkPads for many years) and the perfect RGB LED 1200P screen (ok, only 8-bit per color).
Don't like the lights - turn them off. Without those, it's just a nice looking, solid, futuristic, black machine, that looks very appealing in any office (according to many co-workers and friends).

I'm really proud of having this system and after almost a year - the only thing I'd like to change, and the only reason for going HP - glossy -> antiglare. If I could find a proper way of turning my screen into matte without losing the image quality - I wouldn't even think of trying other systems in the nearest future

2 cents, of course.

 

ooh i like thoughs choices...so what about the asus g73 or m17x...i might wanna check those out too

 

Haaah, looks like I struck a nerve. LOL
Look at you getting all defensive about your laptop. :laugh:
You should work for their advertising department.
Hell, even I want to buy one now. Sign me up.


I'm sure it's a good quality machine.
Afterall, it was made with alien technology.

But spending $2.5K on a new laptop just because the screen is glossy....now that's crazy.

 

Those won't be perfect in pro apps (CAD,DCC, etc)
Other than that - G73 has plenty of issues, IMHO, including the overheating problem.

Nah, 2.5k will be back shortly - gonna sell one of them.
Honestly, I'd attempt a crazy mission - putting that DC2 screen into the M17X

 

Ah perfection is a want too, but I mean im not a professional, just a student and independent worker right. but couldn't the gaming cards give me equal amount of graphics to the gfx card on the workstations?

 

They should provide enough performance in all aspects except for a few Nvidia oriented apps using CUDA. (M17X has ATI cards which do not support CUDA)
Other than that - you're fine.
Another "but" - it's heavy, 6kg, and some find it difficult to carry around.

 

Ok, I've got a super long answer for you since I feel I need to save you from the same mistake I made years back.

Imho, if you have a desktop that meets your current needs, then you should wait as long as possible to purchase a new laptop--especially something as expensive as an Elitebook or any other professionally-oriented "portable desktop". Mobile variants of Sandy Bridge will be released in Q1 of next year. You'll also have more options for mobile Ati 5000 series GPUs and the latest Nvidia Fermi stuff.

If you're going into aeronautical engineering then you'll likely be using CATIA v5, circa 1998. It's the industry standard; I'd be surprised if they had you use 3dsMax for anything. CATIA won't require much to run it. They just released v6 in late '08, but it takes a few years for schools and the industry to adopt it. That brings us to programming. Most of what you'll be doing your first year will be "solve the broken program puzzle" sort of stuff, which won't require any processing power. It sounds like you really don't need heavy mobile computing at the moment and at the very least, could wait out until Sandy Bridge. That being said, I honestly think a better solution would be to purchase a 24" monitor and a consumer-grade laptop, such as the HP Envy, or build a desktop. For much of the work you'll be doing, you'll appreciate a large monitor more than you will raw processing power.

This is coming from someone who bought a pricey laptop for school the summer before freshman year and ended up regretting it--99% of the time, I did my work in class or at my apt/dorm, it was much slower at rendering than our school render-farm and was twice as expensive as a home-built comparable desktop. Last year I built a workstation and was much happier with the small-portable-laptop + immobile-powerhouse combination. It was much more cost effective as well.

Powerhouse laptops fill a small niche of what seems like mostly LAN gamers and on-site work in the entertainment industry. They're really meant to do heavy work at a power source and be packed up and brought to another power source. Their short battery life makes them a poor choice as a mostly note-taking laptop for school since they won't survive longer classes, let alone a day of school. No school requires their students to use CATIA/3dsMax, etc. without providing [at least somewhat capable] computers in a lab setting.

You mentioned you already have a laptop you can use for internet, note-taking, etc. This means you should really evaluate how much you'll be doing semi-mobile(!) extracurricular work in 3dsMax/Maya--enough to require a heavy processing. I'm worried that for practical reasons, you'd end up using your existing laptop most of the time and your $3k portable (and unlike a desktop, not upgradable) powerful laptop would end up sitting on your desk being used as a desktop most of the time anyway.



tl;dr version: You probably won't need a super-powerful laptop in school. Get a cheaper laptop + big monitor. Consider waiting until Sandy Bridge processors this winter.


*edit* Oh, and about buying stuff online: welcome to the 21st century. I'm actually surprised that a 17-18 yr old aeronautical engineer to-be hasn't bought anything on the internet. The savings are huge...I almost feel bad for the suckers paying "stupid tax" to retail consumer electronics stores. The convenience of buying it at a retail store often doesn't outweigh the savings. In your case, buy laptops from reputable sources, such as the manufacturer of the laptop or Newegg.com and you'll be fine. Don't forget that you can get a student discount on laptops from nearly every manufacturer either through the manufacturer's website or your student store. 25%+ savings are common.

 

Have you tried reinstalling Windows 7x64 from scratch - using the retail Win7 DVD instead of the ones that HP provides? Sometimes things are a bit cleaner when doing it that way.

-Eric

 

Yep, that's what the GOBI system is for, and the SIM card is needed for GOBI to use AT&T's network (GSM-based systems all use SIM cards). Theoretically if you had a laptop expresscard from AT&T and wanted to do without the express card - just remove the SIM card from the Expresscard dongle, place the SIM inside the HP laptop, then tell the GOBI SW to use AT&T. Boom! Same service - no expresscard to lose.

 

Aww, to much weight. I really don't know...well i guess i'll have to decide, though the workstations are good example's, but from some people, i kinda considered it kinda like a overskill..

hmm..i guess i'l buy online this time around. Also sandybridge architecture looks nice. Nice processing power and the size is good. and really good maximized TDP wow. Yeah, so what consumer grade laptop should i go for? Alienware, Asus, Viao? TBH in Canada we can only ship envy 15 atm and there first gen and they got problems I forgot to correct you, i don't have a laptop..i never wrote that down XD. Also CATIA is a real good program i see, well in my university Carleton Aeronautical engineers have strands so Im going for either jet propulsion or space engineering and such (i believe we can learn astrophysics to). Also what did you study? I heard aerospace engineering is also a science so I can get into the research field (practical and theoretical), is that true? As you read in my previous post, i really want to find the unknown (hard to explain, mind consuming aspiration/inspiration :confused2: ..it even confuses me)..i hope the research can give me that

 

Could you try one of those antiglare filters? They are like privacy filters in that they have tabs that stick to the sides of the screen and then you slide the filter into that. It's a little kludgy, but it gives you what you need.

 

I don't have a retail version of Windows, just the OEM from HP.

I got everything reinstalled and both problems persist. HP is sending a tech to my house for on-site service. I can show the tech the Sleep Mode problem, that is 100% repeatable, but the hard crash thing is going to be tough to create on demand.

 

Ahh, the SIM cards normally go inside the expresscards. Silly me, I didn't think of that.
So the expresscards are nothing more than adaptors/dongles for the SIM card to connect to the laptop?
Interesting, I thought there was more to them than being a simple dongle for the SIM card.

Cool, thanks for the info.

 

On brand, I have a burning hatred for Viaos. This is in part because they (at least historically) made them ridiculously difficult to service - early on, you had to partially disassemble the machine even to get to the hard drive. And some models had what amounted to killswitches, such that service attempts could brick the machine. [Worked in IT in college, saw a fair number of different machines.] They were also overpriced, last I looked.

I think if you're going consumer grade, Alienware and the like are probably gonna be a bad call - you pay the premium to get their top-end stuff because all of your options are premium. If you're going mid-range or high-mid-range, there are much cheaper ways to go about things.

keptin has a very good point - as a student, you won't likely be doing anything requiring that heavy crunch (and if you do, you'll have access to a compute cluster or the like). It would be ideal if you had a machine and could wait on the upgrade to see what you could use. As it is, you might go for an adequate machine now, and upgrade to something nice in a year or two based on what you've gotten into.

As far as being able to use gamer cards for pro apps: no. Workstation cards are essentially the same cards underneath, but with different optimizations, better drivers, and sometimes more features unlocked/enabled. They will do somewhat less well in games, but way better in modeling/sim stuff, particularly in the pro apps for which they're certified. If you want to do both, get the workstation card. But as keptin was saying, you'll either not be needing that, or will have access to a more powerful machine in the school. If you're not going to go whole hog for the premium now, you might as well save a pile of cash by getting a normal gamer GPU, which is what it is likely to be mostly used for anyway.

----

If you're interested in research, approach professors in person early on. Look up their research, learn a bit about it, and go to them - doing research as an undergrad is a lot of fun and can be a very valuable experience. Engineering is not exactly a scientific discipline, but a lot of basic research in the aerospace realm is essentially engineering-driven.

[If you get into research, you may find that the software is rather different than the somewhat fossilized industry standard - I find it amusing to see technologies being advertised as new or upcoming that I was using last year / helped develop / have a better version of. ]

 

Ah, my mistake about thinking you already had a laptop. Not sure about what you should get, but something in the $800-1000 (USD) range should do nicely. I'd do some research on notebookreview and shoot for a 13-15" laptop. It might be a good idea to get something less expensive now and save for later, unless your parents are giving you a one time off "free laptop", which plenty do. If that's the case, you might want to get something with a little more *umph*, but I'd stay away from most of the consumer quad cores. They draw a lot of power and some lack higher level cache, making them sluggish. Also, 90% of the apps you'll run will be single threaded and will run faster on a higher clocked dual-core.

Like lostbuyer, I'm not a fan of Sony Viao laptops. Frankly, I think most of Sony's products are otherwise good, but overpriced and unnecessarily proprietary. After that whole rootkit thing, I decided Sony's just downright evil.

I would recommend an Asus, but you'll find a better deal buying an HP, Apple, Lenovo, Dell, etc. with a student discount. I would compare student prices at the manufacturer's websites to those available through your school (usually at the campus bookstore or something) as well as online through Newegg.ca--the hands down best consumer electronics site on the net. Chances are, the best deal will be at your school bookstore and you will be able to buy in person after all...except with better-than-online savings.

I really recommend doing some of your own research to avoid buyers remorse; you'll be able to evaluate your needs better than anyone you talk to on an online forum.

I have a close friend in aero engineering. I'm actively studying VFX and animation. The best advice I can give anyone is to do as many internships as you can with people doing exactly what you [think] you want to do. It will narrow down what you want to do or you may discover you don't want to do that at all.

Sometimes I like Sony stuff (price withstanding) and other times I wish they'd die in a fire. Also, great academic advice on research.

As for GPUs, people who aren't making money (ergo students) don't need professional "workstation" graphics. The performance:cost ratio isn't nearly high enough to justify paying for one, especially at a point when most of your time is spent learning the software. When time becomes money and downtime is costly (such as that created by buggy drivers or incompatible software), then workstation graphics may be the better option.

Often Nvidia and Ati lock graphics pipelines on otherwise identical hardware and sell the non-crippled one as "professional-grade" with different software at a 300%+ markup. It's frustrating, but people will keep buying them and nothing will change. As for CUDA and OpenCL computing, projects like Folding@home show that the best bang for your buck is a bunch of consumer cards in SLI/Crossfire. Like many things, it comes down to meeting your needs. I'd like to talk to someone who knows more about video hardware pertaining to the VFX industry to better understand the reasoning behind going with workstation cards.

 

I have tried the best filters/shields/films on the market today (3M, PHotodon,etc) and wasted about 300$ on those.
Not even close to be perfect, not to mention the severely decreased image quality, graininess and the rainbow effect.
So the only way to have a good antiglare screen is to get the true one with a built-in polarizer like those in business grade laptops.


@ True Sultan,
Since you no longer need to run Crysis on a laptop and do not really need a big screen - Lenovo will suit your needs. You can get a really good discount on the Canadian site (up to 30% with the right coupon).
So in that case, I'd probably go for T510/W510.
When enrolling into my engineering studies (8 years ago) purchased an IBM ThinkPad, it's still working in perfect condition (read the retro review in the sig) and was sufficient for all the apps and games for a few solid years with 0 issues and 0 replacements.

Whatever you choose, don't go for consumer grade laptops. While certainly cheaper, those will not be as reliable on the long run.

 

wow man...the viao's got actual kill switches? Mind posting pictures
Also oh yeah i will keep an eye out for research, but I believe aerospace is also a science in itself?

Mmm, yeah I gotta admit the Alien ware are over priced. So wait, i mean I really want to get a good laptop that will fit my need's really well and like if i do go for a high end rig, wouldn't that mean I won't have to upgrade often?

Yeah I'll keep an eye out for an internship. I always wonder why do the companies limit the consumer grade cards? Also i think i did post my need, like i will also be doing slef research, gaming, multimedia, writing up rapports, presentations, spreadsheet and stuff. Also I'm an explorer so I'll be trying new programs and trying to modify stuff you know. I believe i wrote this before..i don't wanna be caught repeating myself :laugh:

So what rig comes with SLI or Crosfire? As you said its one of the best option to get bang for the buck.

Yeah thats what I'm affraid of, my parents maybe only financially planning to cover the shortage for my tuition, i do not want to really bother them in buying a new lappy 2 to 3 years down the road, but also workstations are like kinda heavy and maybe for some reason considered an overkill :confused2:

Also who said i don't need to play crysis? I wll be playing the newer games like crysis 2 and such.. :laugh:

 

I'm curious as to your take on screen protectors. Did you have a glossy screen and want to get rid of glare? Which models did you try specifically and on what notebook? Have you tried any companies that will provide an antireflective coating/finish on the screen itself? I am particularly interested in the Photodon MXAR (glossy with antireflective properties - high transmittance) since I know matte (aka antiglare) screens are not optimal for color sensitive applications.

PixelBright LCDs

 

Science vs. Engineering
Very loosely, engineering is a technical discipline, focused on designing and implementing new devices, materials, parts, etc. - engineers apply the knowledge gained from scientific research. The sciences are focused on learning new things about how the world works. One might say that engineers design/build solutions to problems, while scientists seek answers to questions. Those answers then present the opportunity for new types of problems to be raised and solved.

Obviously, there's a bit of blur between the two. Someone designing a spacecraft is doing engineering, someone studying the effects of zero gravity on silicon crystal growth is a scientist, and if the latter discovers something interesting and useful, the experimentation with various methods to replicate the observed effects planetside is likely a mix of the two.

I'm a computer scientist - my entire field is pretty much seated at the intersection of mathematics, science, and engineering. My current research is in collaboration with a neuroscientist; we're developing new techniques for analyzing certain data that we hope will dramatically improve out knowledge of how neurons work.

Graphics Cards
keptin once again put it really well - save the cash, the workstation card's benefits are not going to be worth it, especially given that by the time you start really having a use for it, it'll be out of date. And you'll have access to something better (newer desktops in a lab, also Carleton has supercomputer resources).

SLI and CrossFire are methods of connecting multiple graphics cards. A 2-card system is not twice as powerful as a single, but you can get as much as 80% improvement in some cases. Unless you get a huge laptop, you aren't getting two graphics cards in there.

As far as your requirements go, most of your activities can be dropped from the list, as ANY computer will handle them just fine: writing reports, HD media [seriously, I have a 6-year-old laptop and an 8-year-old desktop that can play HD media, although I tweak a bit], spreadsheets, programming.

As have many others, I suggest getting something that will cover your gaming needs, as that will be the main thing you'll do that requires graphics power. Both CUDA and OpenCL can be run on consumer/gamer cards - workstation ones offer more power but at a fairly ridiculous price premium. The gamer cards will let you do anything you need to. Sorry for my confusing statements earlier, I put it very poorly.

If you get a laptop now, you could consider getting a desktop in a couple years for the more high-power stuff - a desktop can easily have more power than the most powerful laptop, for a lot less money.


On purchasing
Again, several people have hit the nail on the head - look at what is offered through your school. Schools with strong science/engineering programs get *amazing* deals from manufacturers and often get special service contracts too - they want to impress you now so that you'll buy their stuff in the future. I got my Thinkpad 42p for about half off, and it's 6 years old but still usable. I used to unreservedly recommend Thinkpads because my family had used them for a long time, and all were rock-solid long past their expected lifetimes. The quality seems to have fallen since lenovo took over, but they are still a brand focused on a reputation for reliability.

You might be able to order the system online through your school's IT services portal - if you do, note that you might find the best deal on a pre-configured system, which would simplify your choices.

(Finally, if you're using Windows, when your system eventually slows down you should consider backing up your data and reinstalling before you go buying a new one - cleaning out the crap can extend the life of a system by years.)

 

Wow Your helping me so much, thank you

I shall check out my school IT portals, but my university is in Ottawa and my parents want me to buy in toronto XD. Anyway i talked to people who finished aerospace engineering at Carleton, they say that Aerospace engineering is also a science as well, like the example you have put up, a person with an aerospace degree can also do research on that and discover new methods. Aerospace engineering is full of many physics courses, so if one wanted, he can take some physics elective and also graduate as a Physicist i believe. That's the only reason I chose Aerospace, it gives the experience of an engineer and a researcher. Also wow man, that's some amazing research your doing..cutting edge..sounds awesome

Also regarding the graphics card, yeah I was thinking of getting the M17x with the GTX 480m sli or the HD 5850 crossfire (i think it's an HD 5850 or was it a HD 5870). Do you think that will be a overkill?

Edit:

I checked their site, they don't have a store where u can buy laptops, though I believe DELL gives discounts for students

 

All my attempts so far were to get rid of the reflections (Alieanware M17X-R2) without losing the image quality.
I tried 3M privacy/AG filters, ViewGuard anti-glare shields, Photodon anti-glare filters, etc.
In all of the cases the biggest problem was the image sharpness reduction and the rainbow effect.
The problem is that all these filters are applied over the existing screen (edge to edge glass/plastic cover in my case) creating an additional penetration medium.

Honestly, IDK if it's even possible to go glossy->matte without replacing the entire screen (and in my case removing the E2E cover entirely/partially)

 

Let me expand on this so you don't get the wrong idea. I'll start by saying that at this point in time, with the advent of the mobile Ati 5870s and Fermi around the corner, I don't think SLI on a laptop is necessary or even a good idea. This mainly goes for LAN gamers, since it would be pointless to get an SLI laptop otherwise. Given the gaming options at the moment, there really isn't anything that won't run at 1920x1200 at the highest settings on the 5870. The 5870 has a much lower TDP and is more power efficient than any comparable Nvidia card, including Fermi.

The biggest problem with running multiple GPUs stems from the fact that games and immature drivers lead to poor graphics scaling, leading to small performance increases while doubling the price (in the case of two GPUs). Benchmarks show dual-GPU setups to be closer to 20-50% faster frame rates over a single GPU. Some might be using them for their CUDA/OpenCL performance, but the reality is that there's a very small amount of people who would legitimately need heavy mobile CUDA/OpenCL computing. Also, because manufactures can't surpass the maximum rated TDP for any enclosure, SLI/Crossfire setups usually use two lower-tier GPUs as opposed to one flagship GPU. There are some exceptions, such as the Alienware M17x, where dual-5870s are an option, albeit a $375 one.

For most people, SLI/Crossfire in a laptop will just result in a hotter, more expensive and louder laptop with a shorter battery life. Oh, and micro-studdering has been an ongoing issue for multi-GPU gaming. Having a single faster GPU simplifies things.

Now, when I was saying SLI is the biggest bang for the buck, I was referring to using high-tier consumer graphics cards for GPU computing, such as Folding@home in a desktop/workstation form-factor. Unlike in gaming, GPU computing scales very well, where by doubling the GPUs, you'll double (or nearly double) your processing power. With quad-SLI motherboards, people are able to fit more GPUs on a single board. Without having to purchase multiple motherboards, processors, hard drives, etc, the GPU processing power per machine is very high. That's why it's the most bang for the buck for GPU computing. Because SLI in laptops is expensive and comparatively slow, it's a bad choice for GPU computing in terms of performance:cost.

If you're looking for someone to tell you outright what you should be looking for, I'd say find a laptop with a mobile Ati 5000 series card, as they're currently more efficient than any of Nvidia's offerings and support DX11. If you wait a month, mobile versions of Fermi should be available, but I doubt they'll be as power efficient or cost effective as Ati's (given the desktop Fermi variants aren't), so unless you need CUDA, it might not be worth the additional cost.

At the very least, wait until the end of summer to buy a laptop. It will give you more GPU options. If you can hold out until Q1 2011, you'll have a new series of Ati GPUs and Sandy Bridge. As Lostbuyer wrote, you really just have to focus on meeting your need for gaming. If you needed to get a laptop tomorrow, I'd get something that was 13-15" with a single mobile Ati HD 5870 or 5850 that had a great student discount and then build a desktop down the road if you have a need for a power platform. There really aren't any games being released in the next 6-8 months that will take advantage of dual-flagship 5870/Fermi cards regardless. Crysis 2 might be the only exception, but since it's also being released on consoles, it has to be able to run with acceptable frame rates and quality on a then four year old GPU in the Xbox 360. It will definitely run well on a single 5870.

 

I would definitely look for a compatible screen first.
Have you even tried removing the cover just to see what part# they use?
I'd imagine that since they're owned by Dell, they probably use similar screens.
If so, then you'll probably want to look for a part# that ends with (TL)(A2) since those are Dell screens. Perhaps even A1, but I can't confirm.

It's just a matter of figuring out what's compatible and has a matte finish.
Most of these can be easily found on ebay for $130-$200.

Sure beats the hell out of replacing an entire laptop just because you don't like the screen's finish. I'm sorry but that's just silly and a complete waste of money.

 

oh my god thanks for the clarification, so sli helps in GPGPU computing but only help on desktops and mobile workstations (well not alot on mobile but yeah). Also thanks so a single HD 5870 is a good choice. Wait doesn't the HD 5870 crossfire on the m17x suck batter life quicker and heat up the laptop? Also to be honest, i don't really think at an undergrad level CUDA will help me, and for research well they got there own rig. For personal research well if its really mandatory...I'll use Open CL or Direct Compute, but as you said, if I need a power station I can make a desktop with the Nvidia for CUDA. I'll be leaving around end of august for uni, so idk if i can hold on, and I'll be buying around july august so yeah. What do you mean by Q1 2011? Also yeah I'll concentrate on my gaming and self research and testing needs. That's all i guess. Did u check out the convo between LostBuyer and me? He clarified some stuff too

Do you think a clevo or an alienware is an overkill if i buy it? or is the elitebook an overkill?

 

Saying consumer grade laptops aren't worth buying because they "aren't as reliable" is really generalizing it. I suppose you'd also recommend soccer moms buy HMMWVs because normal SUVs aren't as reliable. Point being, many won't benefit from having a shock-mounted hard drive and magnesium frame for the added cost. Like any product you purchase, you have to find what closely meets your needs for your fixed budget or vice-versa.

First off, the hardware quality is more or less the same between consumer and business laptops. The biggest differences come down to the quality of the keyboard, enclosure, screen hinge, etc. If you didn't need to game on it, a Thinkpad would be a great option. I had an x61T and I loved it up until the day it was stolen. That's not to say it didn't have its flaws. If you're into gaming, consumer laptops will have better GPUs for the same price.

I know plenty of people with run of the mill HPs that were half the price of my Thinkpad and beat them to hell in school; they had better hardware and are still using them years later without any problems. Suffice it to say that if you're the type who treats their electronics well, you're probably fine getting any laptop.

What games were you playing, Tetris? Sarcasm aside, modern Intel integrated graphics are a far cry from what is required to run modern games. My x61T bogged down in HL2, released in 2004. It was fine playing great classic games; Diablo II, RA2, HL1, Age of Empires, etc, but nothing new, not a chance.

The bigger and heavier Thinkpads have GPUs similar in performance to the common GT 330M. Most use dated Nvidia architecture to have CUDA support. I think what I'm getting at is that people expecting to play any new and upcoming graphic intensive games for less than $1500 should be looking at consumer-grade laptops.

 

wow aside all that bable between you to :laugh:

I am entitled to receive 5% discount from alien ware...might be small but hey at least its a discount. Anyway i was wonder whats the difference between M15x vs, M17x vs. Area 51 M9750?

 

Yeah as I stated in my previous post, anti-glare screens aren't great for images. Check out the link above and Google the MXAR from Photodon. They're both glossy solutions with antireflection coating which should be a lot better than any of those matte/anti-glare protectors. Privacy screens really just limit viewing angles and I always take them off when I'm at home and working on images.

I haven't been following the rest True Sultan's threads that closely but is there a reason why you can't use a desktop or even need this much computing power? I graduated from University of Toronto in Electrical Engineering and I honestly don't believe you need to go all out on a notebook for school or gaming. The only reason why I'm even using a notebook now is because I'm studying (medicine) on an island 5,000km away from Toronto and couldn't bring a desktop.

 

Well for one, the current desktop im on right now is my family's desktop so I cannot take it with me, and secondly its heavy and might get stolen. I really want a notebook as i can keep it with me all the times, even when i go out of my dorm

 

Given the game market and the little benefit SLI/Crossfire would provide, I think it's cost prohibitive for gaming. You're better off saving the money for a laptop down the road.

If you happen to be one of few that would benefit from heavy mobile GPGPU, then by all means, buy it.

To my knowledge, the Evergreen family of Ati GPUs are the most power efficient mainstream terascale mobile GPUs available. The default (and least power consuming) GPU option I see for the M17x is a single 5870.

Q1 2010 is the first quarter (Jan-Mar) of 2011, it's by then that Sandy Bridge will be available in consumer products. The Evergreen GPUs may also receive a die shrink by then; it's almost certain that Fermi will. I don't see how Fermi can be competitive without receiving a die shrink since it's currently so power hungry, hot and expensive, it's hardly practical for desktops let alone mobile products.

I'm trying to make the point that you should probably get something that cost around $1000 (USD), so...none of the above. Given the above options, I'd personally go with an Elitebook since I think Alienware computers are ostentatious and have frigidity touchpads.

I don't think Clevo has a student discount program and I frankly don't trust them to be around in the next five years for that matter. Apparently, they're big outside of the US, but I've never seen one in person and they aren't readily available, which makes me think it might be a major PITA if I had problems with it.

This is what you should do in order:

1) Wait a month.

2) Call your school, see if they sell laptops through their bookstore, etc. Browse what they have, note hardware and prices.

3) Go to every major manufacturer's website (HP, Dell, Apple, etc.) and find the student discount prices. Compare prices and hardware to that of your school's offerings.

4) Buy a laptop you like or repeat 1-4.

5% is pitiful. I bet you could get a better discount by calling. You should expect to get anywhere between a 25-50% student discount on the laptop you end up with.

 

If you had a need for a mobile computing (and I mean it, moving between multiple offices, and extremely lit conditions at times) you wouldn't think it's silly.
It's silly to buy an external monitor for every place you go.
Plus, because I'm too mobile and like to game, I simply don't want to get 2 systems.
So no consoles, no monitors, no desktops...
Most business grade laptops have some issues when it comes to gaming (pro GPU's, single Gpu only, cooling in extreme conditions, etc)
I'd definitely follow your advise and swap the screen, but the Edge to Edge type of assembly is tricky. It's the plastic E2E cover what makes the screen so crazily reflective. Plus, Dell managed to make the lid assembly final - in order to remove the screen, you need to cut 2 metal pieces on the lid itself.

I'm gonna answer this post, but this would be it , since am not in a mood to argue. You can stay with your opinions and that's not my goal to sway them.
Others would have to decide by themselves using their own knowledge, skills, intuition etc.

I allow myself to generalize because there's a reason.
I can give you dozens of examples from almost 15 years in IT field, where cheap consumer lappies would last longer than expensive business brothers. But I have dealt with
hundreds of notebooks both business and consumer grade and the average statistics so far is -> about 80% of business notebooks go past 3 years of basic warranty unserviced, whereas only about 20% of the consumer lappies could boast the same. But that's my observation based on my experience in the companies I worked for, was partner of, was owner of, etc.
To make a 100% accurate claim is simply impossible and you should know this as even in Aerospace Engineering there's a strong emphasize on statistics.
Too many factors affect the quality and durability on the long run. Generally, consumer grade notebooks have some cheaper components, but that's not the iron law in every situation. Same for business notebooks. They do not always perform better. But generally, more money is spent on QA, R&D,etc and generally, better quality components are used. Things change within each and every company making lappies , every day and (especially today) you can't have a solid grip on any new tech and label it - 100%. Like in quantum physics it's all about probability and statistics.
So what I offered True Sultan, is my own statistics and probability.

As for my loyal friend TP R40: if you pay attention to details, that system is from 2003 and yes, games like Diablo2, Baldur's Gate, Warcraft3 and some others, were fresh back then. Also NWN and their addons. I played all the major titles of that time (that could run on 32MB Radeon 7500) all the way to America's Army 2.8.
Anyway, if you read the review in my sig, you might get an idea of what the system had to go through with me
But never mind, that's just 1 extreme example and nothing else.

No offense, but if you have some advice to give - give it to those who ask for it and not to me. I'm on the other hand will be happy to share my opinion with those who really need it.
For battles I have a good friend - RampageII,
:yes:

 

Hmm interesting, well I'm going with the ATI cards, i don't really care of Nvidia no more. As you said Fermi isn't as goood. Also ins't Sandy Bridge a CPU architecture, a successor to Nelham C? I really don't need a Sandy Bridge, i guess the CPU out right now are fine with me, as you said, one does not need hexacore cpu to get the job done, look at the military, there drones and stuff are fine, there even running i386 processors.

Hmm yeah I'm gonna call Dell after exams (they start in less then a week, i should study :laugh to check out there discounts. Also Carleton Bookstores don't sell laptops (link: College Apparel, College Merchandise, School Spirit Merchandise : www.carleton.bkstr.com)

I'll follow the steps. The only reason I asked here is because there are so many laptops to choose from, thats why

 

wow wow wow, no arguments please. I just want to get a good laptop
As I can't take my desktop with me (not mine) and I don't want the laptop too break during exams or during labs and such. So Aikimox, im entitled to 5% discount on an alienware (not much) but yeah, I may call them to see if i can get more discount, but would any of the alienware Area 51 laptops be good? Also aren't alienware laptops built to last and take on any challenges? There site boast that :laugh:

 

Regarding the screen. Have you tried those yet?
I've seen the link but honestly, don't think I'll follow the glue-it-over-your-existing-screen methods again any time soon. For the past 3 months I tried several filters and all of them were equal in their quality.

As for why a gaming system:
1) extreme mobility (for the past 3 years I lived on 3 continents and changed apartments and offices (due to the nature of my work) multiple times.
There's simply no way for me to have desktops, external monitors, consoles, TV. Everything is done on a laptop:
work, gaming, video, music,etc.
That requires a system with an extremely high level quality, durability, good screen, good sound, and perfect NBD Travel warranty.

2) One of my hobbies is gaming. That alone would require a very good cooling, very good performance (CF/SLI graphics) and decent upgradeability. Plus, a decent internal storage capacity (min 2HDD's).

That's more or less about "why"
Suggestions are welcome.

 

You can get up to 20% discount following a simple guide, all credits to the author
Also, if you decide on the AW route - go for the All Powerful line : M15X is probably the best choice in your case. Not too heavy, same quality as the M17X, good performance, good screen, etc.
The TP isn't crappy - drivers are. Dell is aware and working on a new driver.
Still the cheapest steal would be a W510 with a 25-30%. You could endup getting it for 1k CAD shipped
By I totally understand the spirit for AW - if they were present back when I enrolled - would grab one instead, I like revolutions and extremes

 

Here are the benchmarks I've run so far. See config in sig.

PCMark05: 7,683
3DMark06: 12,376
wPrime 32M: 17.47 s
wPrime 1024M: 550.63 s
Cinebench 11.5 64-bit
OpenGL: 24.32 fps
CPU: 2.79 pts
CPU (single core): 0.87 pts
CPU MP Ratio: 3.19x

 

Nice!
How's the overall stability? Any changes?

 

....................

 

Thanks for clarifying, there's no need to be defensive. My intention wasn't to argue, but to point out that you were quick to dismiss consumer laptops without stating your reasoning. I wasn't advising you, I was providing a counter-point to your matter-of-fact advice for the sake of True Sultan.

Back to the topic, I can believe that business laptops on average last longer. Currently they have integrated or light-dedicated graphics in the same price range as more capable consumer laptops. I support your opinion in that, for most people, a business laptop is a better choice, but do you really think that a business laptop is the best choice for a student that wants to game and use Maya, etc? I'm not being sarcastic; it's a legitimate question.

My thoughts exactly when it comes to anyone interested in mobile gaming.