Problems? See this thread at archive.org.
Can't u change the gfx then? Would having nvidia make any difference?
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Weird...no problems on the 8510p with external HDMI or VGA monitor. Hopefully it's a single-unit issue (fixable!) and not across the whole line
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Well, people, I have *baffling* news
I called HP business support yet again, i described the hdmi problem and assured them that this is a "feature" present on many 8710w's and also told about the nw9440 problem.
After a long explanation and some elevator jazz, the support person said that he had consulted a fellow technician who explained that the problem was caused *solely by pin9 of hdmi connector*. So, this is HP's official stand on the issue.
As i'm using 1680x1050 EIZO Coloredge CE210W via HDMI->DVI-D cable as my second monitor, i looked up the HDMI and DVI specs and noticed something: pin9 is TMDC Data0 - and on HDMI it's TMDC Data0 - for blue channel. From the HW9440 posts I read the main problem was with blue channel and shades of blue. HP advised me to go buy a HDMI cable with a cut pin9 - so practically they're advising "go buy a nonstandard cable to fix our design flaw"
I pried out the pin9 from the HDMI connector and for the first 2-3 minutes it really DID seem to help, but after that the TZ5 temps rose back up to 70C... So I wonder if HP's next going to suggest prying out "pin8 and then pin16 and all the remaining pins" until the problem is solved......
The laptop will be picked up at the beginning of next week for changing all the internal parts (for some reason the service person mocked the HP service at Poland saying the guys there are "sh*theads that can't do stuff right" and told he was going to send it to the nearby Fixforum at Espoo next to Helsinki). If replacing all the parts on this second 8710W don't help, they'll jump over the "2nd stage" of service (which i have no idea what it is) and jump right to "3rd stage" which means sending the laptop to "the indian guys" where they are supposed to isolate the problem. -
LOL
I always thought it was India that was the worse place to talk to or to send the laptop to? Especially that when my old HP died it was send for full refurbishment to Poland LOL
Anyway, we all want to know the outcome
BTW. I never understood why they do not want to give new laptop if they are changing all parts inside. LOL. Craziest thing ever
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Perhaps... but I'm kinda reluctant to call them because my impression is that there's near zero chance of getting them to do anything useful. They'll just take this in for a long time and return it with the same problem (perhaps with my LG screen switched to a Samsung for no specific reason too...). And for me, the main problem isn't really the external monitor because I can live without one. Although it would be nice to have it. Also as I mentioned earlier, I actually used a VGA cable instead of a DVI or HDMI and had the same problem, so I'm not sure if it has anything to do with that. Personally I'm most annoyed by the fact that the vacuum cleaner mode is activated after some semi-intense viewport working in 3D software or after a few minutes of watching videos, and it slows down only much later.
My theory at this point is that the problem is simply caused by a somewhat poor cooling system (either by build or design) combined with badly chosen fan speeds and thresholds. It's not that far fetched that the GPU temps would rise a few degrees when using an external screen, and unfortunately that's enough to put it into the vacuum cleaner mode which is programmed to last really long. I'm no too sure about this though, but it kind of makes sense. I'd definitely like to see the ACPI disassembly, if only for curiousity.
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Ok, finally took some time to get the DSDT dump. It's incredibly difficult to export binary keys as raw binary from the Windows registry, by the way. Other than that, it disassembled pretty nicely. Not sure if this has any practical use, but it's attached here just in case anyone cares. For some reason, its name is "nc65xx", not "8710w" or something logical like that. There's also some error in the first lnie, not sure if that's important.
As you can see, it's rather convoluted. What I could determine with some inspection:
- Lines 15528 to 15533 are fan speeds at different levels. In hex of course, in the range of 0 to 100 %
- Lines 15379 to 15523 are fan speed thresholds for various TZ:s. Specifically, lines 15478 to 15497 are GPU thersholds (two almost identical sets, I guess it switches between them based on whatever criteria). All thresholds are in tenths of degrees celcius, added with 0xAAC. So e.g. the entry 0x0CD2 means temperature 0x0CD2 - 0xAAC = 0x226 = 550 = 55 degrees. Don't ask me how I found out, I don't even remember.
- TZ:s and their properties are defined starting with lines ThermalZone (TZx). For example, TZ2 starts at line 15865. The functions are very messy and not very human readable in general. _ACx:s basically define the thresholds, and apparently get them from the above mentioned locations via bunch of indirections.
I'm tempted to tweak some of those numbers just to solve some of the annoying problems, but I'm not sure how risky that would be. Anyway, this is probably not very useful or important to anyone, but I couldn't resist the nerd challenge.
Also TZ5 definitely looks like the fan speed percentage. I think it's TZ2 that we should be interested in.Attached Files:
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Well, I patched the DSDT and everything seems to run fine - that is, no bluescreens or exploding components (so far).
The only change I made was setting the GPU 55C threshold to 60C instead. This seems to work nicely: after stressing the GPU to 65C triggering the 70% fan, the temps came down to 60C pretty quickly and the fan slowed down again. No more holding the laptop in the air pointing a tabletop fan at it, trying to get the temps to 55C for the noise to stop.
I think I'm going to do something else for some time now and see how well this works in practice, and whether I need some additional tweaks.
If anyone wants, I can write step by step instructions for doing this, like in the link I pasted a couple of posts above. I'm somewhat hesitant to give any ready made files because I suspect that there's a lot of variation in the problems people are having and this solution may not help everyone (or might even be harmful). Also I've heard that reports that different units of the same model may have completely different ACPI programs, so this one may not be compatible at all.
About the external monitors, mine is not currently around here and won't be for a week, so I can't experiment with that right now.
I suspect the reason is TZ2, at least it is that for me in similar situations. Watch the 65C limit, crossing it even briefly tends to fire the fan up to 70% and keep it there until you get back down to 55C. And using the external monitor apparently puts the temps up a few degrees, so it may be bordering around 65C and sometimes crossing it for no specific reason. Although it is certainly possible that different people are having different kinds of problems with this, it's hard to tell. -
Ok, here it is... sorry if it's a bit complicated, but I hope it helps someone - and perhaps someone will come up with some smarter and more useful adjustments and post them as well. At least I'll remember what to do if I have to repeat this at some point.
The basic principles might apply to most other laptops too.
If something isn't working or there's an error, tell me so I can fix it. Ask if there's a part you fail to follow.
Patching the HP 8710w DSDT tables
First of all, anything you do is completely at your own responsibility. This is certainly not something that is intended to be done by end users, so there's a real chance of killing your computer if something goes wrong and I'm sure HP won't be very symphatetic. These instructions are what worked for me, but I can't guarantee that they work in case of other units or versions.
Also don't expect this to magically solve all problems - I think that fundamentally the problems are about too hot hardware. For example, switching the thermal pads may be a much better solution because it actually addresses the heat generation issues. However, tweaking the DSDT tables can provide some help for certain specific problems. I urge you to track down your specific problems using tools like Notebook Hardware Control (which shows not only temperatures and fan speeds, but also the thresholds where the fan speeds are changed). The problems seem to be related to the thermal zone TZ2, aka the GPU. Discussion about the specifics can be found earlier in this thread.
This is largely based on Eddie Tse's write-up on a similar hack for 8510p, which can be found at http://eddietse.blogspot.com/2008/03/patching-dsdt-table-for-8510p-to-reduce.html . So thanks Eddie.
So, let's begin:
1. Get the MS ASL Compiler at http://download.microsoft.com/downl...5-81fc-3e4bf7b65496/MS_ASL-Compiler_3.0.1.msi and install it.
2. Create some working directory, say, C:\dsdtpatch\
3. Copy asl.exe to C:\dsdtpatch\ from the installed compiler program files.
4. Open a command line window. You may need to run it with admin privileges (right-click it on vista and choose "Run as administrator")
5. You need to extract the AML data from the Windows registry as raw binary. This is somewhat difficult, because regedit doesn't offer a feature to export keys as binary, only hex. The key is 00000000 in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\HARDWARE\ACPI\DSDT\HP____\nc65xx\00010000 . Tse has provided a simple .Net program for this purpose, but unfortunately it only works with 8510p. I can't help you much with this - here's a really clumsy way that also requires an unix shell. Who knows, perhaps there's some improved version of regedit or something that would do this automatically, but this is the way I did it because I was too lazy to look for one. Anyway:
- export the key to C:\dsdtpatch\dsdt.reg
- make a backup copy, just in case
- move to unix shell (sorry )
- here's a simple and understandable command that converts it to binary:
cat dsdt.reg | perl -pe 's/\n//g' | perl -pe 's/^.*://;s/[^a-f0-9]//g;s/(..)/pack("C",hex($1))/ge' > nc65xx.aml
- whew, if it worked, nc65xx.aml should now contain the registry key as raw binary (you may want to check that it seems reasonable - for me it is about 82kB and starts with letters "DSDT")
- get the file back to windows and make a backup copy
6. Disassemble the file we just created in command line: asl /u nc65xx.aml
7. You should end up with a file called nc65xx.ASL which is the ACPI source code. Make a backup copy.
8. Finally, we have the file we actually need to modify. Somewhere in the file you should find a few lines looking like this:
Name(C364, Package(0x6)
{
0x64,
0x55,
0x46,
0x32,
0x1e,
0x0
}
The name might vary but I guess the hex numbers should be the same for others. These are the fan speeds in the range of 0 to 100 (0x64). This is a great chance to use the fancy calculator touch button on the top right corner of your 8710w - it's useful for the hex conversions and calculations. The above numbers correspond to the values TZ5 (fan speed) gets.
Above these numbers there should be a similar long list of other numbers. These are the fan temperature thresholds for various temperature zones. You should find a set of numbers that look as follows (there are other similar sets of numbers, but we are looking for these specific ones):
Package(0x8)
{
0x5ac,
0xc3c,
0xc6e,
0xcd2,
0xd36,
0xda4,
0xe1c,
0xe6c
},
Package(0x8)
{
0xc6e,
0xcd2,
0xd36,
0xda4,
0xe1c,
0xe80,
0xec6,
0xfa3
}
These are the GPU fan thresholds. They aren't plain numbers though - they're expressed in tenths of degrees celcius, added with 0xAAC. So for example, 0xD36 there is 0xD36 - 0xAAC = 0x28A = 650 = 65 degrees. For convinience, here are the above numbers converted to degrees in this way: the first set is [some negative number (don't know what this means)], 40, 45, 55, 65, 76, 88 and 96. The second set is 45, 55, 65, 75, 88, 98, 105 and 127.1. If you compare these numbers to what you see in Notebook Hardware Control or other program that shows this extra data, you can see the similarity with the TZ2 thresholds (and this is what I base my observations on, too - I have no idea why things are done in whatever way they are). I think the first set is the thresholds "below" current temperature and the second set is the ones "above". So if the current temp is 57C and the fan is spinning at 30%, the combined list of thresholds will be something like 40, 55, 65, 75, 88, 98 (notice that 45 is skipped) - i.e. this is what makes it move the threshold when one is crossed. Not sure about that one though.
Now, what to do with these numbers? You can use your own imagination and make tweaks based on your own observations - just don't get too adventurous so you won't break anything. I think there may be several different problems people are having, so what I'm about to describe may not apply for you. Especially if your problems are with external monitor, this is probably not very optimal.
Personally I found the biggest problem with my 8710w to be the GPU temps. After the GPU crosses 65C, it fires the fan up to 70% and keeps it there until the temps get down all the way to 55C. This takes really long or doesn't happen at all. So I decided to change the 55C threshold to 60C. This makes the fan stop within reasonable time. On the other hand, it might cause a pulsating cycle where the fan goes on and of repeatedly, swinging the temperature between 60 and 65C. But I guess that would be less annoying than the constant vacuum cleaning.
So what I did now was to change the numbers corresponding to 55C to numbers corresponding to 60C. The 55C number in the above list is 0xcd2 (55 degrees = 550 = 0x226 and 0x226 + 0xAAC = 0xCD2). I changed this to 0xd04 (60 degrees = 600 = 0x258 and 0x258+0xAAC = 0xD04). Note that there are two instances of it, replace them both. And that's it, save the file.
I haven't experimented with this much yet. Other tweaks might be much better. Some ideas could be:
- Just lowering the fan speeds, like people often do with these DSDT hacks. This would make the noise more tolerable, but could risk overheating.
- Making the transition more gradual. Right now, the fan often goes straight from 30% to 70%. There is a 50% entry in the speed table and it's activated at times, but for some reason it is also often skipped. Going through this intermediate stage could prevent the temps from getting to the 70% range that often.
8. Time to compile the modified source code. In your command line window: asl nc65xx.ASL
9. You'll likely get some warnings and errors. It appears that the warnings can be ignored, but the errors do prevent it from compiling. If you didn't break anything else, the errors you get are a few syntax errors which can be fixed as follows:
- Go to the line of the error. For example if you get "nc65xx.ASL(14084): error: expecting Symbol '('" then go to line 14084 in your editor and you may find something like this:
If(LEqual(Arg0, 0x0))
{
C381
} <------- (note: this is the line 14084)
- Add () to the function call in the previous line, so that you get something like this:
If(LEqual(Arg0, 0x0))
{
C381()
}
- Try to recompile. When you get a new error, repeat this procedure. You may need to repeat this for a few times.
10. After the errors are fixed, the file should compile and overwrite the nc65xx.aml. Check that the file timestamp has updated.
11. Install the thing. Make sure you have admin privileges, otherwise it will fail. Installation is done in console: asl /loadtable nc65xx.aml
12. That's it. Reboot your computer and hope that everything worked. If it boots up with no problems, verify that your changes have taken effect using some program that shows the fan speeds and thresholds. Be sure to test it thoroughly if you have made any risky modifications (e.g. significantly dropping fan speeds which could cause excessive heating). If your machine fails to boot, apparently pressing F8 at boot and choosing "use last known good" option should boot it with the old settings. In that case you should perhaps load the original backuped aml file back to registry. -
It's great, i will try this on my 8710p, thank You.
Do You think they could figure it out?
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The registry editor here would do the trick, but the function we want (raw bin export) works only in the pro version($).
Extract the AML data like this (carefully...) :
1. Export the '00000000' key under 'HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\HARDWARE\ACPI\DSDT\HP____\nc65xx\00010000'
(as miika said)
2. Now open the .reg file (for editing) you have just exported and search for 'nc65xx' in the path. Overwrite it with '8510x'. Save the file then import the key back to the registry by only double clicking on the .reg file itself.
3. Run the program found on this page (by Eddie Tse):
http://eddietse.blogspot.com/2008/03/patching-dsdt-table-for-8510p-to-reduce.html
Now you have the file 8510x.orig what is your aml data in binary. Rename it to anything you want with the extension of .aml
4. Delete the '8510x' key (you have created in step 2.) in the registry.
5. Follow miika's guide from step 6.
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kaRRer, I doubt they'd notice unless they were specifically looking for it for some reason. Anyway, clever thinking with the registry extraction.
Stumo, could be somethin like that, sure. Be sure to post your findings here if you're researching it further. -
Woah, I set the PowerMizerLevelAC from 1 to 3 (but left the PerfLevelSrc at 3333) and it feels like the entire problem has just vanished. I really hope this isn't just some fluke or bring out some different set of problems... I've been using this thing now for couple of hours with an external screen in dualview and the temps have been stable at around 55C.
I had recently updated the driver to 185.20 to do some CUDA programming. Until now I hadn't even been able to use the external screen at single-view without the noise on these drivers. There aren't probably very well supported though, the driver tends to crash and restart every now and then.
But good thing I happened to check out this thread by accident after a long while. Kind of ridiculous if it turns out that after all this hassle the solution is something that simple.
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Hello all,
Well, there's been a long time that I used this solution, and it was working GOOD on my XPx64.
Yea, well, time has come that we try win7, is'nt it ?
Well i installed Windows 7 Ultimate x64 (RTM) and all went fine, some drivers remain uninstaled, but they are all covered up with Vista x64 drivers so finaly all went fine.
Oh, yea, and then, I realise, damn what's with all the noise, and blimp, I rememberd, the damn fan control, yea.
I found my last setings, with registry modifications on PowerMizer levels and huh ?
Something have changed in the registry. Can't find PerfLevelSrc string or any other, there is now CurrentControlSet ControlSet 001 ControlSet 002, all is a bit confusing in W7.
So am I wrong or not ?
I applyed registry tweeking on all and every place I come up like logical place to aply so. And bope, no luck
Anyone tryed W7 yet ? Any solution ?
Chrixx, help mate -
Here is same problem, my 8710w's fan is always on. This happeded when I moved to use Windows 7 64-bit (in Vista 32-bit fan speed is ok). CPU's idle temperature is OK - around 42-45 degrees. But GPU's tempreture in idle is 62-65 degrees!!
I have tried enabling PowerMizer feature in manufacture's drivers (186.24) and the newest Nvidia's drivers (195.62), neither worked. I made new DWORD values in registery:
PowerMizerEnable 1
PerfLevelSrc 3333
"\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\{**nvidia driver id**}\0000\"
I red somewhere that in these settings, PowerMizer is working on battery and AC. But nothings happens! GPU clock speed remains the same and temperature also. What I'm doing wrong? Is there other way to enable PowerMizer? Or does I have get rid of 7 (and back to as far as to XP ? )
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8710w - fan works all the time
Discussion in 'HP' started by wojwoda, May 24, 2008.
