ENVY 15t-j000 mSATA SSD + HDD fresh install, with mSATA as boot drive

Beware of the new HP BIOS which is dated 29th November 2013, and is F.36

I says in the notes - Fixes an intermittent issue where the system does not power on properly when an mSATA drive is connected to the system.

Sound like a good thing, so I installed it. This BIOS completely breaks mSATA as boot and SATA as empty storage. Which was the setup I had.

BIOS F.36 force the first boot from SATA, even if the drive is blank and has no OS on it and you have a valid mSATA drive with OS.

HP has lock us out from continuing to boot from the mSATA drive with a SATA drive installed. I don't really see the need to go this far, not happy with HP for this.

You can still boot from mSATA, but you now have to completely remove the normal SATA drive from the system (physically detach it)

If you install F.36 BIOS and have an OS on your mSATA drive, you will now see this message:

Boot Device Not Found
Please install an operating system on your hard disk.
Hard Disk (3F0)

btw. Rolling back to F.35 will not fix the issue. Warning, don't roll back to F.24, this will brick the system, and you will have to run a BIOS recovery from a UBS drive.

 

I am disappointed by this development. I just bought a 15-j078ca after reading this thread and I was excited at the prospect of using mSATA as a boot.

Also seeing the BIOS update I thought that our friends at HP updated to reflect the use of mSATA as a drive (per the update).

Now with this news I am seriously considering returning it even before trying it out.

 

Try using refind boot manager. It works for me on F.34. I think it might work on any BIOS version because it reads all disks and searches for bootable EFI partitions. You can put it on a USB stick and try it before permanently installing on an internal disk.

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Here is the link: The rEFInd Boot Manager

Can someone with F.36 confirm that this works? I do believe this should work since it finds all the connected storage devices and presents you with a boot menu after the BIOS POST and before the Windows 8 boot manager.

In the downloads section, there is instructions to install it on a USB drive. So boot to the USB drive with refind on it, it will give you a boot menu, test all your bootable drives. If it works you can install it permanently.

I still just plug in the USB stick to select my secondary OS because I haven't had the time to install it permanently.

 

Just to clear this up, I was already on an perfectly good operating mSATA (UEFI OS) and SATA (single partition for Data), fully working and setup for over a month. Then I did the BIOS update, and bang, say no OS found. Therefore The system is now defaulting to searching for an OS only from the SATA drive. It will not cheak the mSATA drive, and nor will you get a option to boot from it if you press the F9 key.

I know my mSATA drive is fine, as you can complete remove the mechanical drive and it will boot fine.

I have already tried very BIOS setting under the sun to get this working with both drives working.

USB drive will not fix it or make it boot from F.36, I spent all of last night trying to work around this.

 

Yikes - HP is clamping down on this by modifying the BIOS to the point where you can't even use it for a non-Windows install.

It's a shame - I wanted the mSATA/HDD combo that this model presents. I didn't want a 17" version which has two HDD/SSD bays nor did I want to go with other brands. I think I'll be returning this computer and I'll try out Lenovo or Toshiba.

 

I could not get both drives bootable through the BIOS. Just the mSATA alone or the SATA alone works fine. The BIOS prefers the SATA over the mSATA on my version.

I have Linux on my mSATA and Windows 8 on SATA. Both using UEFI boot partitions.

Why do you say the USB stick method will not work? Also how do you know they are preventing non Windows installs?

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I meant that using Linux installed on the mSATA with the HDD as storage still results in the problem - the BIOS has been neutered to restrict usage of the SSD to act only as a cache.

My theoretical solution would be one of the following:

1) use a bootloader or some other form of OS selector to direct the computer to access the SSD - that way the BIOS finds the OS if it looks at the HDD first. This may add some delay but I would presume that it would be much faster than a standalone HDD.
2) use the 250GB mSATA SSD as a cache which would greatly increase speeds as the computer used regularly.

Thus, I have added two more questions to the debate:

1) will a bootloader or OS selector work with the mSATA being used as a drive; and
2) will the BIOS accept and make use of a massive drive cache of 250GB?

Alternatively, would a hybrid drive that has a 7,200 spin speed work better and be cheaper than the above two solutions?

 

I purchased my Envy 15 this Thanksgiving. It came with BIOS version F.3x (can't remember the last digit and don't have the laptop with me right now to check). It did not allow me to use the mSATA as a boot drive if the SATA was also connected. So I faced the same issue since day one of ownership

rEFInd is the piece you need to get solution 1 working.

BIOS -> rEFINd -> Boot drive/partition selection

This would be the flow for my dual boot scenario. The trick here is rEFInd will have to sit on the SATA disk since the BIOS will only scan that drive for booting. So for a single OS on mSATA, I think you will still need to have a small portion of the SATA drive dedicated to boot rEFInd.

This was the only way I managed to boot into the mSATA drive when both drives are connected. If I couldn't dual boot with separate drives I would have sent the laptop back. But lo! It worked

For me the 24GB cache SSD which came with my configuration is currently enough for Linux. And I have a 500GB SSD for Windows + shared data.

I think you can use the 250GB as cache I just am not sure if would utilize all the space available.

For me the noise and heat of mechanical was unacceptable.

 

If anyone is unsure about my findings being incorrect, then please go ahead flash F.36 and see for yourself. Otherwise there is no point guessing what might happen. All I am doing is warning people not to upgrade if you want to keep you already working configuration. Lesson has been learn by me, and letting you all know before you suffer the same hardship.

I am uncertain if a redirect will work on the SATA drive on port 0 and then go to port 1, it may work as it could bypass the HP boot at that stage. What I do know, HP has locked this BIOS down not to display any of the UEFI system of mSATA on port 1 at the BIOS level during boot, basically cannot see it's structure or existents.

As I have said before, downgrading to a pervious BIOS does not allow you to get your boot to mSATA back. I am suspecting that HP have written this to the embedded controller during the BIOS flash of F.36, would be my best guess why a downgrade does resolve the issue.

btw. Not sure about the question of caching. I am assuming you me like SSD caching, if so in that case 64GB is the maximum amount allowed by Windows.

 

Got home for work today and having a go with rEFInd, trying to setup a UBS drive was to much work, was way easier to create a USB CD ISO and boot from that.

First off if you have secure boot enabled it will not boot from the EFI CD, and throw up a message at the BIOS level, "Failed to authenticate Image" or something like that anyway. At that stage you can change to legacy boot (which sucks) and it will boot the CD loading Windows from the mSATA.

Finally you can boot with the BIOS set to UEFI mode, but the catch is you must disable secure boot, otherwise you will get the message above.

Creating a partition on the standard disk SATA for UEFI looks rather complicated and not so straight forward. Although I see it can be bypassed, so just a matter of time to work out what/how to do it now. Will post later if I bother to spend the time with it. Likely may not have this laptop much longer, so don't want to waste my time on it.

 

Found a way to boot without having to use any external EFI boot loader like rEFInd. It a bit of a hassle and a manual task, but requires no special tools or loaders. This is what you will need to do:

1. Enable Legacy Boot in the BIOS
2. When power on each time, press the F9 key for boot menu
3. Select "Boot From EFI File"
4. Select "No Volume Label [Acpi..."
5. Select "EFI"
6. Select "Boot'
7. Select "bootx64.efi"

The computer will then boot your OS on you mSATA drive. Basically you are enabling legacy boot in the BIOS one time, having to press F9 everytime the computer starts, and then browsing to the actual EFI boot loader file on your mSATA drive

I tried for some time to make a small automatically bootable 100MB partition on the standard disk just using diskpart, but was not able to get it boot from there. I think it needs a EFI partition of some sort and it will work. Need to figure that out later.

btw. sorry for the multiple posts, its better this way as is logging each step closer, and findings separately.

 

Ok I have got this thing solved as good as possible, before going into the advance stuff to turn on secure boot.

Here is what you do to get rEFInd to auto boot from the standard SATA disk with EFI mode enabled

In a nutshell, you must create the SATA disk as a GPT disk, path boot EFI\BOOT\ with the key file named "bootx64.efi". When this is done the disk will be present to the system, and the BIOS will find its way to the loader.

I did mine like this (I had already wiped my drive, but you could use diskpart to convert it) :

1. Manage Computer, go to the Disk Management
2. Right click on the SATA disk and Covert to GPT
3. Create a small 100MB partition and format it to FAT32
4. Create folder "EFI"
5. Create folder "BOOT
6. Download rEFInd ISO
7. Mount ISO
8. Extract contents the folder "refind" in to the ISO folder that was created earlier
9. Rename file "refind_x64.efi" to "bootx64.efi"

Done Boots right into rEFInd at the press of the power on button, then it just a single tap of the enter button to load OS from mSATA drive

Make sure you disable secure boot in the BIOS, otherwise it will not load anything and give you a can not authenticate message.

You maybe able to simply add the path and files if you disk is all ready a GPT disk. The 100MB partition is just so I can manage it, you could make it smaller if you want to.

btw. If you go for the 100MB partition, you can remove the drive letter afterward, keeps it hidden from view, like its not there.

 

Thanks for sharing!
I'm going to take some time tonight to install my SSD and a fresh copy if windows + Linux. Will be using rEFInd as the boot manager.

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Thanks, this is very good news. I realized that 64GB is the max cache size so having a bigger SSD is pointless.

Now it's a matter of having a boot manager with the OS installed on an SSD or using a 64GB SSD as a cache and evaluating performance that way.

Can rEFInd work with a single OS? If so, can it be customized to boot directly to Windows with no delay? I might set it up to run Linux as well but I may not go that route for simplicity.

 

So I threw down the gauntlet - my Envy 15 arrived today and I ordered a Plextor M5M 256GB drive to try out the very same thing that T2050 explained.

I'll let you know what happens.

 

Yes rEFInd can work with a single OS. It's essentially scanning for bootable EFI files but it's looking at all available devices unlike someone's BIOS (looking at HP and frowning).

They have a conf file which makes me think you can tweak it to the way you want it.

I'll update later tonight.

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Hi bwillet,

Thank you very much. this really helped in me setting up 128gig SSD onto my K015dx M6 Model.

For all, a tip.
1. remove the HDD from the slot.
2.Install only msata SSD and install the OS onto it.
3. Connect the HDD as Slave onto a PC or External USB drive (using USB shell) and use this free tool "HDD Low Level Format" for formatting and removing the MBR from the HDD.
4. then connect the hDD onto the laptop. it will not create any issues.

Note: Point 3 is very important. No matter how we format a primary HDD, Boot MBR does not get erased. hence we get issues when HDD installed as " No boot device found" even though SSD would have OS on it.

This tool "HDD Low Level Format" is a free tool which can delete the Boot MBR from both Slave as well as from USB external drive. this is the only way i know of to remove the existing MBR from this HDD so that it does not create any issues thus MBR from SSD get recognized even though HDD is connected.

Reagrds,
Senthilprakash Selvaraj

 

The disk comes out of the HP box with GPT, therefore it in theory should not have any MBR on the disk. Although I personally formatted to MBR later on, that could be an issue.

Although I am getting the feeling HP has coded their new BIOS to look at both ports, and say if disk exists in port 0 and 1, then only boot from port 0 even if there is a boot loader on port 1.
Otherwise if no disk exist on port 0 then boot from port 1, and then if no disk exists on port 1 then boot from port 0.

The configuration files can be modified to reduce the timeout for rEFInd, or to continue to boot the first EFI loader it see, then you will should not even see it with it being fully automatic without delay.

 

I upgraded my bios to F.36 and it booted up just fine this time unlike it did with F.35 which gave that same error message. After I got my laptop back still with F.35, I deleted everything off the HDD except the "Recovery" Partition and one of the EFI Partitions. Then added my own mSata Card and installed windows and it all booted up just fine and I have no problems what-so-ever this time thankfully!

Someone mentioned earlier you have to have something on the hdd or it wont work. Said when you delete everything off both msata and hdd, you need to format "BOTH" of them so it adds all those partitions to both hard drives you could try that to see if it works.

Good Luck!

 

What I know for sure is I was on F.35 from and working fine with mSATA OS (EFI) and SATA Storage (single partition), then after installing F.36 it broke booting with everything on the disks not changed

 

Interesting, I couldn't boot from the mSATA with BIOS F.35

 

Not sure what HP has done with F.35, as I cannot no longer find it on their website.

Pretty sure I upgraded to F.35 before I created a mSATA OS drive with SATA storage. As F.35 mentioned that is fixed the touch screen not responding issue by upgrading the touch screen firmware, so was a important update to get.

Did this around 5th of November, and since then F.35 has gone totally from the same place I downloaded it from. Now it goes F.36 newest under Windows 8.1 drivers, and next newest is F.24 which is under Windows 8 drivers, for my model anyway.

 

I just got my 256GB SSD and I am getting ready to make the move to getting my 15-j078ca to boot from it but I am currently with Windows 8 and bios ver. F. 35

Should I upgrade the BIOS and upgrade to Windows 8.1 first before making the move?

 

I'm too haha .i don't know why? And if you boot from USB (UEFI) you'll also not boot to OS . Hic,pls hlep me .I upgrade bios to f36 ,it's terrible ,if you press f10 to save bios ,it's crash

 

Please read the thread, I have posted work arounds.

 

Hi,

I ordered my HP envy 15 j-033 laptop with the intention to upgrade it with the msata ssd disk for OS. Now I am not sure if this is the best option. Some of you have experience problems, doesn´t matter the BIOS version. It´s extrange because with the same BIOS some of you have been successfull and others not...
Do you believe that HP will add the option to boot from msata disk in future BIOS?
Do you know if HP has other laptops with the possibility to configure the boot from msata or HDD?
If yes, why not in envy 15? Can be a hardware problem (feasibility) or are we speaking only about a BIOS software problem?

My second option is to change the 1TB HD for a SSD Samsung 840 Evo (500 or 750gb). Obviously I prefer to use the msata and not loose the 1TB capacity but according to last experiences looks like it is not a secure mod. According to your experience, do you recomend now to try the msata fresh install or you will go direct for HDD change to SSD?

Thanks in advance.

 

We can't answer questions on HP's future strategy, unless they have some lurker here that can help (I doubt it).
The problem is they're using a BIOS that is not very user-friendly. My Envy 15 wanted to update to F.36 the other day and I definitely made sure it didn't do so...

Swapping out the HDD for a regular SSD is obviously the safe option. If you don't mind keeping the HDD as a USB 3.0 external drive that will work for sure.

Suggestion: buy the laptop and SSD with a good return policy. try the msata option, if it doesn't work then try the SSD swap out option. if you still don't like it, return the laptop.

 

I under the impression HP want this to be like how it is from F.36, and I would be surprised if the decision was made to push this across their entire line of consumer notebooks with their future BIOS updates and notebook releases. Kind of like whitelisting but in a different kind of way.

At this point as the RAID is full functional still within the BIOS. I am highly considering grabbing a Intel 530 2.5" drive and placing in a RAID0 with my Intel 525 mSATA, for even better performance. Seems to have the same controller, although the NAND is bit different

Lose the extra space of the mechanical hard drive, but will be way faster that a single SSD. I my case I will have 240GB total space, I would otherwise run a single 240GB but have the mSATA now.

 

I tried installing the msata with the HDD and I managed to wipe my HDD and dete partitions still getting issuing OS error.

Going to try rEFInd and Shim to see if I can get a dual boot so to speak.

 

Windows always takes preference over rEFInd when installed on the SATA disk.
Also if I installed the SATA disk after installing Fedora on the mSATA I couldn't boot into Windows on the SATA.

Right now I'm using F9 one time boot menu to select the Fedora EFI on the mSATA when needed.

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Thanks for your comments and recomendations ricemanhk and T2050.

T2050 I am surprise you want to swap your sata disk because I had understood that you was able to manage the way to boot from msata whit F36 BIOS with the partition of 100mb in Sata disk. For other side you speak about delays. Are there a significant delay booting throught the SATA disk partition?.

 

It's a very cynical move on their part if this is the case. Even if that is true though, I can't see how it would be good business for them. Surely it would not likely be anyone other than enthusiasts who would be setting up the mSATA SSD as their bootable drive? I can't see it ending up as a mainstream option.

I will probably just bite the bullet like you and get a large 2.5 inch SSD for everything, but it would've been nice to be able to get the best bang for my buck with a mSATA SSD OS drive and a data HDD.

Oh well.

Just on another note, is anyone else still experiencing graphics issues since the upgrade to 8.1?

 

I've installed 8.1. What issues you facing?

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Only because I actual don't want to deal with HP's bundler of a updated BIOS, which bothers the heck out of me having to work around it.
Putting 2 SSD in a RAID0 will beat this, but at a cost, if not a effective or cheap cost either.

Bottom line is I do not want to swap the SATA disk, as is good storage, and why should we. I almost refuse to do this, as its forced BIOS update that cannot be reversed, even is you use a back dated BIOS.

If anyone installs rEFInd, then to cut the delay down to auto boot to windows, then edit the file refind.conf.sample:

1. Open file "refind.conf.sample"
2. Change value of "timeout 20" to "timeout 1"
3. Take out the #
4. Save as "refind.conf"

When you next reboot or startup, to boot automatically to windows from the rEFInd menu is only 1 second.

 

When I plug the HDMI cable into the TV, sound doesn't divert to the TV system and instead I have to plug an aux cable directly into the speakers.

Also, when playing Civ V, the game is quite a bit slower and there's lag in terms of moving the map in comparison with windows 8.

I also find the wireless card to be a bit troublesome.

 

HDMI output is OK for me. Not yet had trouble with WiFi.
Haven't tried Civ 5 on my laptop. But I managed to get Borderlands 2 running smooth enough.

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So I made an attempt at installing the mSATA with the HDD and found some success. I will note that I have BIOS v. f35 and judging by the poor results from those who went to F. 36 I am not taking a chance at upgrading just yet. Also, I am using an Envy 15-j078CA (should be the equivalent of other 15-j***'s out there.

Here's my process:

1) Installed the mSATA and kept the HDD installed.
2) Downloaded a Windows 8 AIO RTM ISO (which I think was an Enterprise version)
3) Created a USB boot disk using a "ISO to USB" program
4) Added the HP mSATA drivers to the USB which you can download from the support website (I used the Win 8) version.
5) Booted the computer and hit ESC
6) Selected F9 (Boot Options) and selected the USB key
7) When the installation screen came up I selected "Custom" install
8) Selected "Load Drivers" option and loaded in the HP/Intel RST drivers that were on the USB
9) Deleted all partitions on the mSATA and SATA, created a new partition on the SATA which produced 2 partitions (one 100MB "System" or "Service" type and one 939GB storage parition).
10) Selected the mSATA SSD and selected install
11) Proceeded to set up Windows as usual and proceeded to upgrade to Windows 8.1

Everything installed as smoothly as could be however I haven't had time to install the appropriate HP drivers. I noticed that my trackpad doesn't work so I will investigate why this is the case.

Reboots are quick and it appears that the mSATA is the boot device with no ill effects on the system.

What appears to be strange are the following:

1) BIOS seems to have Legacy as ENABLED - I don't recall changing this setting so I am not sure if deactivating it will cause problems or not
2) Because Legacy mode is enabled, Secure Boot is disabled
3) Booting is delayed as the Intel BIOS for the RAID set up (which I did not use) gives you the option to change setup.

I still need to figure out if this works if I switch Legacy boot mode off - I am worried as changing it back might mess things up.

Still reviewing the rEFInd installation instructions - I would want to make it work with secure boot and apparently it can work. That said, I am not planning on DUAL booting so I am not sure if this is redundant or not.

I anxiously await your comments...

 

I did my upgrade before/after I was on F.35, which really does not make any difference as F.35 was fine, introduced nothing that broken anything.
No issues with F.35 BIOS with a mSATA and normal SATA drive.

Its F.36 that causes the problem. Install F.36, then you are in for trouble.

 

Don't know if your post is directed at anyone specific so hope you don't mind me chiming in due to me doing similar to what you plan to do....I have a 17t-j000 that I installed a 120gb Samsung 840evo ssd as my boot drive and the 1tb hdd as secondary (the 17t comes with 2 drive slots)...the bios f.36 caused issues for me after running flawlessly for a couple months after drive swap. It semi-bricked my computer and in the end I HAD to reinstall windows off a retail win8 pro disk to recover completely... So be careful in your situation because the msata drive might do the same thing as happened to me with ssd and her setup and then doing bios update...hopefully that helps you in some way...

 

This is exactly what I suggested in my earlier posts. Legacy mode is left as enabled which disables Secure Boot (this is the only way that allows booting from USB stick to install Win 8). I have not seen the need to change this setting afterwards, unless someone can provide guidance on why Secure Boot is needed?

@lerxt73 - yes you need to install the synaptics drivers to get the touch pad working. even my ethernet port wasn't working until I installed the drivers.

@onefastfocus02 - did it work for you after your Win8 reinstall to use F.36 and boot off your SSD with the HDD as secondary data drive?

Although a more fundamental question would be: what does F.36 bring to the table that requires an update? Might as well just stick to F.24/F.35 for now...and make sure if you buy a new Envy 14/15/17 that you check the BIOS version before purchase.

Seems like there's a few active Envy users here, so I'll repost an earlier question that I didn't get any responses for and am still struggling with:

My Envy 15 doesn't adjust volume automatically between speakers and headset.

When I have my laptop speakers on at 80% volume, I'd like it to automatically go down to 30% when I plug in my headphones i.e. volume profiles are attached to the speaker and headphones separately. When I unplug my headphones, the speaker volume should go back to 80%.

This used to be the case on my old laptop running Windows 7, but I can't figure out how to change this on the Envy 15. I'm also not sure if it's an HP driver issue or a Windows 8.1 setting. It seems to be due to the fact that there is only 1 playback device "Speakers / HP" and not separate "Speakers" and "Headphones" as it was on my old laptop.

 

Follow my guide and there is no need to disable UEFI. If you use the original install from HP it will be UEFI, which is what the original installation partitions are.

If you use install media that is not UEFI or don't have it enabled before installation, then you will end up with a legacy installation.

High recommend keeping UEFI enabled for the added start-up speed.

UEFI can be enabled in the BIOS and Secure Boot can be disabled. You will end up with a water mark on the desktop.
It could be possible to erase the secure boot key in the BIOS, and the water mark might go away if you force it. I didn't want to try this although, cause I not ready to push that away.

Tomorrow I have SATA 2.5" SSD coming that I got on sale, and I am going to RAID0 the mSATA SSD and the SATA SSD together, using the UEFI mode is the BIOS.

 

Actually come to think of it I only disabled Secure boot but left legacy mode disabled. I don't have a watermark and I boot into Win8.1 in less than 10 seconds from a cold start.

Anyone else have my speaker vs headset volume issue and have a solution?

 

Just a comment on one of the earlier posts, I was able to boot from USB with UEFI. So it was legacy off and secure boot off. I needed to do this to force my Windows and Linux installations to use EFI boot instead of MBR style.

How did you get EFI boot for your OS when installing from a USB booted through legacy mode? They reverted to MBR style partitioning and boot loaders when I boot my USB drive with legacy mode enabled.

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I thought I did follow the guide. Anyway, I confirm that legacy mode is enabled and secure boot is disabled. Going to legacy off does not work. Despite the slight delay related to the Intel RAID config screen I see a great improvement. Also there is no HP logo at startup.

Based on your experience, I won't go to F36 until we have assurance that it will work with msata boot drives.

 

I never intended to go to BIOS F.36 if I had of known what was about to happen. That why I have not been recommending it to no one after I found the issue.

I put both a mSATA and a SATA drive in a RAID0 and figured that should be good enough to boot. Looks like HP has gone the extra mile to lock this down. Still comes up with no OS.

It makes be feel sad and extremely frustrated that HP have to stoop to this level, there is absolutely no reason to do this to a small amount of customers which such a ridiculous update, they would of known what this was to do.

I have now accidently delete my F.35 BIOS, which I have tried to roll back to, and didn't work.

What I will try now is a recovery from holding windows key plus the b key, and use a recovery USB BIOS of F.35

One problem now, HP and removed F.35 from existence. Can someone (if they have it) please upload a link to F.35, then I can see if a recovery.

 

Can you back up F.35 and then use that to restore your BIOS?

 

Is this something that you can fix in Windows 8? If you plug in your headphones, can you right click on the sound icon and then select "Volume Control Options" and then select Headphones and see if it gives you different volume settings than the Internal Speakers?

 

I reviewed my installation process again and I created a UEFI HSB key with the Win8 ISO on it. I would not boot up with Legacy Off and Secure Boot Off (or On). I did work with Legacy On but I think that's what I did in the first place.

 

I don't have a backup. I had to do a emergency recovery when I went back to F.24, and I don't have a HP tools partition for the BIOS to be saved anywhere. Also I deleted my SATA disk where I had the BIOS's store on.

What I am asking for is for someone to PM me or post up a link of the F.35 software paq BIOS installer. Can someone do this, and then I can find out if a emergency BIOS restore will also restore the old state back.

Anyone? Thanks.