Envy 17 3D SB Throttling fix.

Issue

There's been quite a few Envy 17 SB that have signs and behaviors of throttling when the processor and graphics core are put under heavy loads. This seems to affect many, most, or maybe all Envy 17 SB laptops and maybe other Sandy Bridge laptops (some Asus have reported).
General Behaviors outlined
1. Processor remains near or at 798 mhz while both the processor and GPU are at 100% usage using Prime95 and Furmark.
2. Processor remains at higher speeds while the GPU/ CPU are not at 100% usage in games however every few minutes produces momentary drops in FPS during games. Typically lasting less then 10 seconds.
3. Very very few units exhibit major signs of throttling to the point of unresponsiveness. My contact at HP Research Team confirmed that there were a very small amount of units showing this behavior.

Issue:
1. Processor is throttled while GPU and CPU both are in use. This causes hindrances in performance. This is present in some, most, or if not all Envy 17 SB's laptops.

How to find out if your are affected: Please visit my testing thread.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/hp-envy-hdx/575817-hp-envy-17-sb-throttling-test.html

Temporary Fix

I found a fix thanks to a forum member, dkillone whom recommended using Throttlestop by just running it to help minimize the throttling. While the software did indeed better then the throttling 798 mhz to 1.4 ghz it showed the potential to perhaps stop the throttling.
I began to test with several configurations and found 1 that helped to remove throttling in all but the heaviest of usages (Prime95+Furmark, and even then the results were more then passable).

However this throttle removal came at a price. Very high temperatures with both GPU and CPU hitting 97c~.

WARNING THE FOLLOWING FIX ALLOWS FOR HIGH TEMPERATURES TO APPEAR, I WAS HITTING 97C for the CPU and GPU. This test was done using the 9 cell battery which provides optimum air flow without the use of a laptop cooler.
These are very high temperatures and while they may be safe we are unsure of their effect in the long term. Please use judgement, and stop if you see the temperatures going to 100c. Seek to remedy temperature issues with additional safe cooling supplements.


Downloading of necessary files for performing, and confirming the fix.

Confirming software (testing software).

CPU Stress:
Prime95 Large FFT
32 bit: Prime95 (32bit) - 25.11 Download - EXTREME Overclocking
64 bit: Prime95 (64bit) - 25.11 Download - EXTREME Overclocking

CPU monitoring:
CPU-Z
32 and 64 bit: CPUID - System & hardware benchmark, monitoring, reporting

Furmark, please scroll down and select the location (Europe or America):
FurMark v1.6.5 download from Guru3D.com

HwInfo32, for monitoring temperatures:
HWiNFO32 Download
Scroll down and select Self Installing Exe.

Necessary software for applying the fix. This must be done every time you restart, however you can always go to "options" and check the box "start minimized" to have it start up automatically. If you are going with the start up option, also check the "AC Adapter On Battery Off" box this will turn off throttle stop when your on battery that way your battery life will not suffer.

Throttlestop
ThrottleStop - Performance Adjustment Tool for Core 2 / Core i CPUs - XtremeSystems Forums


How to apply the temporary fix:
1. Open Throttlestop- check to make sure Prochot is unchecked before proceeding.
2. Hit the "Turn On" button.
3. Under "Set Multiplier" please check the box and set the box besides it to "Turbo".
4. Hit "Save".
5. Minimize Throttlestop, and leaving it running for whatever activity you do not want throttling to occur in (typically games or high CPU/GPU intensive activities)

To confirm the fix:
1. Open Prime 95 and get it ready to run (see my testing guide linked above).
2. Open Furmark and ready it to run (see my testing guide linked above on how)
3. Open Hwinfo32 under "Sensors Only" then hit run.
4. Open CPU-Z

Lastly run Prime95 and Furmark both and check CPU-Z for the results.

Enjoy!

 

Crimsoned I think you should also mention my results using a core i7 2630qm vs your 2820qm. My temps after 30mins topped out at 87-88C for the CPU and 82C for the GPU, a little on the safer side.

Thank you for all your time and research, hopefully your contacts can get the right people involved and get us a permanent solution.

 

Big THANK YOU to Crimsoned! Bios fix or not...this can certainly help if you need heavy CPU / GPU use at the same time.

 

Crimsoned, what was the power draw from the PSU during your test? Do you have a Killa-watt?

Kill A Watt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Amazon.com: P3 International P4400 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor: Home Improvement

This would be a good way to tell if you are overtaxing the power supply which may cause it to fail prematurely.

 

Nope I don't have a kill a watt however I put an order for my own multimeter (been borrowing the company's Multimeter XD), I should be able to pull loads there.

That actually won't be a good way to test it. Power adapters will often draw more then the rated spec because their rated spec is not power from the wall but power supplied to the laptop.
Due to inefficiencies between AC to DC conversion, there is typically a 20%~ loss of power. This efficiency is what we don't know. It could be 70%-90% you see.
For example for the PSU to provide 120w it would require approximately 143 watts from the wall at 80%~ efficiency.

Bleh.

 

Thanks a lot Crimsoned for ur extraordinary efforts in this cause.HP ought to pay u coz u prevented so many returns.

 

Woww.....seems like that is still better news for 2630 users like me.That means I can use this fix without any risk.

 

I recommend still using Hwinfo32 and testing the fix to ensure stability/safety as well as the efficacy of the fix.

I wish HP would pay me, usually I charge for this type of labor lol.

 

Crimsoned, a very well made thread indeed. Ok, a couple of things.

1. You mentioned in the previous thread that you would share your configuration..... this it? 3. Under "Set Multiplier" please check the box and set the box besides it to "Turbo".
4. Hit "Save". Aren't there special tweaks or all you did was check the set multiplier box and turbo box?

2. After we are done using throttlestop with our game....we just close the throttlestop program and that is it? Go on our merry way, and turn it back on whenever we play intensive games?

3. If we don't play hard, or use the CPU/GPU to their fullest, therefore there is no need to turn on throttlestop, or can throttlestop be left on the laptop as long as its powered on? If we don't have GPU/CPU intesive programs it won't necessarily heat up the computer just because throttlestop is on right?

Thanks again.


KJ

 

Nope that's it, no tweaking or anything else. I am still experimenting with other settings which do require special tweaking, however they are not yielding other results even if they did I would likely not publish them as the current fix is already hitting very high temps on the i7-2820QM.

You minimize throttlestop, everything you restart you will have to do the same or having throttlestop start minimized (see my OP- I've revised it already). I will revise my OP.

3. Nope there is no reason to use throttlestop if you don't use the CPU or GPU much. Most of Intels power saving modes are completely enabled (you will notice the processor will work at higher frequencies even when idle) even after my fix, of that I am pretty sure so there will be no overheating by doing this fix if there is no massive load on the GPU/CPU.

It's perfectly safe for those who will not be using their laptops for heavy CPU/GPU activities, namely gaming.

 

Crimsoned, sounds simple enough. I will just use throttlestop for gaming...and will monitor temps very closely. Then I'll shut it off when done.
Like others, I hope HP comes with a BIOS fix, if not, oh well. I can live with activating throttlestop just for gaming once in a while for the next 4 years or so. Now to get my Envy...arrrrggghhhhh....

KJ

 

Throttle jockeys:

Have throttling tests been run on power option settings for high performance? This must have come up before but I can't find record of it.

Drilling deep into the ADVANCED settings in the taskbar power options we may find the min power sertings are at other than 100%. There are separate categories for graphics and primary power......

Example setting: Processor power management when PLUGGED IN:

Minimum is set to 5% on "HP recommended" by default. BBUUUTTT:
Minimum is set to 100% on HIGH POWER power setting


Can throttling be solved by simply adjusting the advanced settings? Or has someone eluded to trying this already? Bobmitch or someone may have mentioned this before. If not, weigh in......

 

No it cannot be solved by messing with advanced power settings through Windows. This has already come up who knows how long ago.
All settings can be set however you wish but the throttling will continue.
So far the fix I provided is the only temporary fix I've yet been able to produce.

 

Will anyone please test this when running on batteries? My Envy 17 shuts off when I do.

 

There is absolutely no way the battery can even supply the power necessary to run both CPU and GPU at the same time.

This would cause an emergency shut off no doubt about it. The GPU and CPU would become unstable if the power was suddenly cut off.

I would not recommend attempting this test on batteries.

 

It's not going to break anything.... I've done it at least 5 times already??? It could just be an isolated issue with mine...

I guess they should include a warning stating no strenuous computing unless plugged in....

 

Does throttling also appear while gaming, or is it only while running Prime95 and Furmark? I know those two programs stress the components more than any game, so if a game doeant cause throttling then its fine. (I'm asking from a gaming perspective)

I know the previous version of the ENVY also had throttling issues (according to a few reviews), but only after running Prime95 and Furmark, but not while gaming.

 

I've noticed it during gaming, so have a few people.

@phiser

Eh actually it could, massive undervolting to a processor is dangerous and could kill the processor. Now realistically speaking, everything should be fine, but you never know if your part of that minority percentage that gets unlucky.
On top of that you could always corrupt your windows install, and will need to reinstall windows.

 

@Crimsoned

Out of interest... have you tried passing on these results we obtained with throttlestop to HP again?

 

Yup, definitely see it during gaming, I posted a log that proves it downclocks during GTA4, in which after running throttlestop it's so smooth and clocks dont fluctuate anymore.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/7487250-post150.html

Granted, I do have a G73, but I'm more than confident all Envy owners will get same results. I've passed this on to an Asus employee, and he said they would look into it. Just gotta keep testing, and logging so we can possibly help an official fix come out sooner.

 

I'm not stupid. I have never had a CPU break on me for any reason. I have been reinstalling Windows yearly since Windows 3.0. And I have had my computers freeze on me at least 100 times. I never needed to reinstall Windows either, just do occasionally to fix minor bugs which appear. Windows corrupts itself.....

 

VonCrisp, great question.

I am still wondering Crimsoned, did your HP contact ever call or email you last week? And if not, is there an email they gave you that you could submit the info about Throttlestop to them? That is the only we will potentially ever get a fix from HP is if Research dept. actually invests some time/money into fixing this thing. Thanks again.

KJ

 

? Okay. Then you should know a battery will never supply enough power to the CPU/GPU. Anyways, I don't think your shut downs on battery are anything out of the ordinary.

@ Killa Joe

No unfortunately my contact has not contacted me, nor have I been able to contact him. To be honest they probably spotted me on these forums. I know they frequent them.

 

Well, in a way HP did include a STRONG suggestion in the manual regading playing Blurays.... They state always have it plugged into a power outlet when viewing Bluerays, or viewing any 3D content especially..... So I'd say the warning is there. You have to read the full manual, even the fine print and you might even find further warnings.

Crimsoned knows his stuff...

KJ

 

Well, in that case, we know they are most likely reading this post. So HP Research Team, we all hope you guys come up with a permenant fix for the throttling soon. Much appreciated.

KJ

 

Honestly I am in doubt that they will do anything, and that this throttling is induced by the BIOS on purpose.

As you see in my thread my temperatures were hitting 97c on CPU and 97c on GPU. More then likely this throttling was to combat the overheating going on in the Envy 17 line. 2 days ago, my laptop shut off out of no where while playing Bad Company 2.

I would recommend everyone who's going to be using both CPU/GPU at the same time send back their Envy 17's, let them feel it with their wallet at this point is what I am saying.

 

I've owned the Envy 17 before so I know how much heat can come out of the tiny exhaust vent on the left side of the laptop. The M17xR3 has 2 vents that are each considerably larger than the Envy's vent. And, when I push the M17xR3, both vents are pumping out considerable heat. There is no way the Envy 17 can handle the combined heat output from both CPU and GPU from a single exhaust vent.

Running throttlestop is not a solution IMHO because it will shorten the lifespan of the laptop.

 

I agree, and suggest people use it very very minimally and with careful temp observation. Only use it when playing intensive games, and only for short periods, then turn off throttlestop. This is what I plan on doing very briefly. In fact, try playing with out throttlestop, and maybe only turn it on with short sections of the game to play it smoothly and turn it off and continue with the game. I suppose it sounds tedious and crazy to do that, but its an idea to prolong the life of the laptop, until or if ever HP will present us with the BIOS fix.

KJ

 

The Intel datasheet for these Sandy Bridge mobile CPUs shows that the PROCHOT (processor hot) signal goes active at a core temperature of 100C. The documentation also says that is the "maximum safe operating temperature".

What testing is that statement based on? ThrottleStop is not capable of overclocking these Sandy Bridge CPUs and it can't make them run outside the Intel thermal or power design spec. All ThrottleStop is doing is telling the CPU to run at the default Intel specifications.

If HP has sold a laptop that slows down to 40% or less of its rated performance when playing a simple game then that's a problem that needs to be fixed. If they can't fix this then they need to warn consumers up front about this design defect or limitation.

Imagine buying a new Corvette and discovering that GM put a governor on it so you can't do more than 60 mph so you don't hurt yourself. Consumers would be screaming mad and there would be an instant class action lawsuit. Computer consumers put up with similar nonsense and some even feel bad that they are doing something wrong by trying to use their new computer at its rated speed.

If you are scared to use your new laptop within it's safe 100C limit then you can also use ThrottleStop to slow your computer down when it gets close to this limit. Just go into the Options window and set an Alarm and create a user profile that uses a lower speed. You could use a DTS value of 10 which would set an alarm at a CPU core temperature of 90C (100-10). You could then get ThrottleStop to automatically switch to Profile 2 which could be used to slow down your CPU until the core temperature got back under 90C. Automatic profile switching based on core temperature is a great feature of ThrottleStop but seems to be rarely used.

The new Sandy Bridge CPUs have a high default multiplier so your Profile #2 could be the same as Profile #1 except that Profile #2 in ThrottleStop would have Disable Turbo selected. This would probably be enough to keep your CPU well within its safe limit without killing performance and would barely be noticeable. I have no idea why manufacturers don't do something like this before doing something drastic like instantly reducing performance all the way down to 800 MHz in one shot.

 

Thank you very much for your post, unclewebb

The temporary fix will not shorten the lifespan of the processor nor GPU, that much is certain. The max safety temperature of 100c is referring to the silicon, not the heatspreader or outside of the core temp diode.

Generally speaking Intel's 100c max safety temperature is approximately 110c on the temperature diode inside the processor. Or at least that's the only temperature where I have personally seen processors crap out in, or begin to show signs of instability.

However the processor will automatically throttle at about 104c on the temperature diode, the few ways to reach 110c is to use a hacked bios+no heatsink, or to use a heat source to heat up the processor.

I've measure temps, so far as long as the motherboard can handle such heat, you will be fine. No other components gets hot enough to cause issues.

 

I would rather know and not think about it anymore...

Honestly, I have no idea how power is converted from batteries, and able to supply any laptop. But it seems to me if the battery cannot supply the amount of power needed for the components inside. HP should have built in some sort of fail safe mechanism to prevent this issue.

-unclewebb: Thank you for all your excellent work on this! I feel honored to have the author of such a great program right here!

HP!!!!!!

 

My thoughts exactly. I'm pretty pissed that I actually paid a $350 premium to get the fastest CPU, which basically is money out the window, as they all run at 800Mhz anyway when load is put on the GPU. That some people in this boards is OK with this scares me. They can try to blame Intel or whatever, but it was HP that sold me this laptop, and it's HP's responsibility to have it working up to it's specs.

 

You can't blame this on Intel. The new Sandy Bridge CPUs are very efficient and work great. It's up to HP to include a sufficient power adapter and an adequate cooling solution so the CPU can run at its rated speed. Intel publishes plenty of data and test procedures for computer manufacturers to follow but it looks like someone dropped the ball. Adding some throttling to a laptop after the fact to cover up a problem and then hope that hardly anyone notices is not a good way to do business.

I spent months hounding Dell about their throttling laptops. They got so fed up with me that they banned me from their forums without ever telling me why. I guess the truth hurts. In the long run, it paid off because it forced Dell to go through their entire laptop line up and to solve these problems. A year ago the NBR Dell forums were full of angry users with one throttling issue or another but with recent Dell laptops, you rarely hear about any throttling problems. The same kind of pressure needs to be applied to HP and Asus so throttling is not being used as a crutch for an inadequate cooling solution or other design defect.

Phisherman: You're welcome. It's always fun when my software can clearly document and prove what the problem is. It's more fun when ThrottleStop can also be used to fix the problem. HP needs to update the bios but they might not ever do that if the heatsink and fan they are using is not adequate.

 

unclewebb, thank you for being a pioneer on this matter. It really is too bad HP manufactured such a beautiful laptop and neglected the power and cooling aspects. Now that you mentioned the heatsink issue and fan issue, I don't see HP fixing the BIOS unless they recall all the Envy 17s back, not going to happen.

Its one of those, gonna have to live with it for now issues. I wonder if HP will address these matters in the upcoming Ivy Bridge edition.
For now, at least we shall enjoy the Envy as is, with throttlestop, and a careful eye. Thanks.

KJ

 

Thanks for your post and pioneering, as well as providing Throttlestop free of charge to the community.


I don't think anyone should hold their breath for a solution from HP.
I mentioned it already, return the Envy 17 if you are using it for anything GPU/CPU intensive. The temperatures obtained by freeing the CPU are very very high.

 

Do I have the rights to demand a refund or fix under the laptop warranty?

 

If you demand a fix, they'll probably just keep replacing it with refurbished units until you get frustrated and give up with a laptop that has more problems than you started with...

If you are within your 21 days, definitely get a refund!

 

Nope, discovered it after 22 days.
I'll have them send me refurbished units until they give up then.

 

So what laptops that are out now are not having these problems. Alienware which is ugly and what else, gaming wise atleast? I keep tabs on alot of forums an I see the same thing popping up. So why not be happy with envy. They all have their flaws...

 

Because the new HP Envy 17 in its present state is defective. Many countries have laws about selling products that can not run at their advertised speed. You can't sell a 2000 MHz processor if you deliberately throttle it and it really only runs at 800 MHz. You can't charge extra for an upgraded processor if it also runs at that same 800 MHz. That's fraud and leaves a company wide open to a class action lawsuit.

Here's a nice coincidence.



If you have contacted HP and they are not willing to come up with a solution then consider contacting the Better Business Bureau or whoever is in charge of consumer protection where you live and file a complaint. Dell became more motivated after the BBB got involved.

What new Dell laptop that has been released since last fall has significant throttling issues like this? None that I've heard about it.

 

Why did they drop that much? Did something happen the last few days?

 

HP reported lower forecast for the future. And...

"Mr. Apotheker blamed the sluggish PC sales on inadequate investment in the unit, a thinly veiled critique of his predecessor, Mark V. Hurd, who was known as a cost-cutter."

 

unclewebb, you do make it very clear indeed. Well, I ordered the 2820 as did many here. I think all of us who did pay extra for the higher/faster processor should contact HP and DEMAND a REFUND for the extra price paid for the laptop!!! It makes total sense...otherwise I think I may DEMAND HP build me one with the 2630 since I won't be getting faster speeds.

I will wait to get mine first, test it out, then once I confirmed my results, I will call HP and hope they will work with me.

Again, all you guys should call HP and DEMAND a fix or a refund!!! ARGH! I won't give up on the Envy, but I do expect a fair price now that the truth is out! Thanks unclewebb, Crimsoned, and all who contributed to this issue and opened our eyes.

HP, if you are reading this, please respond as to your planned corrective actions.

KJ

 

By demanding a refund you mean to return it and get your money back? or just get the refund for the difference with a slower processor but keeping the envy?

I also saw the same problems on my envy (dropping to 789 mhz under throttling test) and has obtained a RMA (but not actually return it yet, still have 2 more days).

If i return it, which other laptops i can purchase with similar specs that don't have this problem? How about Dell XPS 17 non-3D or 3D version? how about Asus, sager, etc?

I really don't want to return it and then find nothing to replace with.

Thanks

 

Personally I'm looking at the newest Dell Precision. It has a way better GPU, better cooling system, and a larger power adapter, so hopefully throttling aint an issue there. It also looks more discrete than an Alienware, which is a plus for me.

Doesn't have 3D though, but I'm far from impressed by the Envy 3D capabilities, so I can easily live without it.

Dell Precision M6600 Mobile Workstation | Dell

 

I don't think I've heard of any since then.

The Precision line up has some really hard core cooling solutions.

 

What I meant was HP should either let me keep the 2820 and give me the difference back to my credit card as to what the price of the 2630 costs. If they won't refund me several hundred dollars, I will want HP to build me a new 2630 and then give me the difference. There is no point of me paying more for a laptop that can't deliver as to its promised speed. As someone posted earlier, its like taking good cash and flushing it down the toilet. Not many of us can afford to do that in this lousy economy.

KJ

 

I'm gonna wait until I get the Precision before I start complaining to HP though, since I don't wanna be without a PC until then, throttling or not.
But once I get it, HP beware.

 

Got it. That is a legitimate request if more owners make enough noises. But i doubt what HP can do. I truely hope it works for you.

When i explains to the HP rep. for the throttling problem, she does not understand the issue, and thus only offer an exchange to the same model since i am still within the 21 day period. But if i change anything i will lose the 25% discount i had before.

 

The M6600 is very nice and I had a few moments of buyers remorse until I priced it and it came out to well over $4k for the config I wanted. Given that my M17xR3 is mostly connected to an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse, I guess I really don't need the Ultrasharp display, touchscreen, pen input, and Quadro 4000M.