Envy 17-1011nr (Amazon model), heat and throttling issue like SB models

Hey guys. Been a long time since I posted in this forum.

Anyway, I have the Envy 17-1011nr, which I bought last August from Amazon. I went through 4 other units before finally getting an Envy 17 that had no major issues, or so I thought at that time.

I recently sent in my Envy 17 for an RMA to take care of 8 dead pixels, abnormal heating, and a popping (maybe dead) subwoofer. HP took care of the dead pixels and and subwoofer, but my Envy 17 still gets quite hot. The i7-720QM gets up to 87C when running 8 worker threads in Prime95. When running just Furmark, the GPU gets up to 84C. These are the temperatures at which the CPU and GPU hover around. According to the repair report, the entire bottom casing and keyboard area casing was replaced. The fan and heatsink were also replaced.

Now, it seems that compared to when I got my Envy 17, the CPU now runs a bit hotter and the GPU runs slightly cooler. I have tested again with the extended 9 cell battery which elevates the laptop and have seen about a 1-2C drop across the board, but still the temperatures are quite high.

Now, when I ran Prime95 and Furmark at the same time, immediately my processor throttles down to 1.2-1.3 GHz. According to Intel, the i7-720QM should only throttle down when there is very little load or when the junction temperature of 90C is hit. According to HWinfo32, the processor is nowhere near 90C. Infact, during the test it is in the low 70C. Turn off Furmark and the processor clocks back up to 1.6 GHz within 5 seconds. Turn on Furmark while Prime95 is running and the processor throttles down to 1.2-1.3 GHz.

Now, this throttling issue is similar to what others have experienced with the new Sandy Bridge Envys. I noticed this throttling issue in the past, but I didn't make much of it because I thought I would never push my laptop to such extremes. But, it seems like this is what has been causing my sudden framerate drops and random mouse lag in some games.

I believe that this throttling issue has been present since the launch of the Envy 17. The recent resolution for the SB Envy 17 has made me revisit this and has made me rethink this whole throttling thing.

I ask members of the community with the non Sandy Bridge Envy 17 laptops to do the throttling test as described in the thread linked below and report back.

I spoke with a representative today (got my Envy back from RMA today) and have gotten my case elevated and should be contacted by a case manager in the next 24-36 hours.

Thank you.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/hp-envy-hdx/575817-hp-envy-17-sb-throttling-test.html

Added PDF files.

 

I really doubt the temperatures are low 70cs. Please post a pic of the entire HWinfo32.

 

So, I tested some more. My previous tests were done when the system had been off for a while, thus it took some time for temperatures to climb.

I redid the tests and with both the CPU and GPU loaded 100%, the CPU speed drops to 1.1 GHz and core temperatures are around 82C. GPU temperature is around 89C.

When only the CPU is loaded 100%, core temperatures are around 86C. CPU clock is around 2.2 GHz.

When only the GPU is loaded 100%, GPU temperatures are around 87C. CPU temperatures are around 70C and CPU clock is at 1.6 GHz.

Clearly, when utilizing the full extent of the CPU and GPU, the processor is immediately downclocking. According to Intel's spec sheets for the i7-720QM, throttling down should only occur when the critical junction temperature of 100C is hit by any of the 4 cores. Hence, my processor is not working as it should.

I spoke to a case manager today. She had no idea why I was assigned a case manager for a technical issue and did not understand anything I told her. She said the only thing she could do was to initiate another RMA, which I will be do and I will be requesting that the receiving technician call me upon diagnosing my Envy 17.


By the way, I have made sure that my power profile is in "High Performance" and that the minimum and maximum processor states are set correctly.

 

I see not sure what to say, as I said can you post pic of hwinfo32?

 

Delete this post.

 

I'm pretty sure all the Envy models show throttling when the GPU is stressed.

Just use throttlestop to prevent this.

 

The throttling issue has been recently fixed on the SB Envy 17 through a BIOS update. There is something wrong with mine because even though the temperature of the CPU is nowhere near the critical junction temperature, the CPU throttles down when the GPU is running near max. It is not supposed to do this.

When only the CPU is running fully loaded, CPU temperatures are higher than CPU temperatures for when CPU and GPU are both fully loaded. This translates to a laggy screen and decreased performance in games as well as when I do my work (CAD and simulations).

It is not my responsibility to try and fix the issue. My notebook is still under warranty. Using Throttlestop will disable a critical safety mechanism of the CPU. If it is indeed a thermal issue, then using Throttlestop will do more harm than good. According to my research, the throttling down could also be due to overheating voltage regulators on the motherboard. Hence, this could mean my motherboard is defective.

 

I have attached a document detailing the throttling down issue of my processor. I have included the tests conducted to confirm this issue, my research, as well as my hypothesis as to the source of this issue.

I was unable to upload the pictures online since whenever I do, it reduces the image resolution and makes the numbers very hard to read. So, I ended up posting a PDF (split into 3 parts for size) that should provide enough information, yet still be concise enough to understand the problem at hand.

PDF files can be found in the main post.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/7574429-post1.html

 

I know, that's exactly what is happening. HP is causing CPU throttling on the Envy 14 (i7 only AFAIK, i5 users haven't tested yet), pre-F15 SB 17, and apparently pre-SB 17's as well. It looks like HP has not designed the cooling solution to be sufficient for both the GPU and CPU to be fully stressed at the same time. It watches the combined output of the 2 chips and throttles accordingly.


If the temps haven't reached the level where throttling would normally occur, then disabling the throttling should be okay, as long as you monitor temps and cool the computer off in the case that temps go too high. I have not seen temps above 85 when using throttlestop while gaming or using other intensive apps, mainly because games aren't too dependent on the CPU.

I know running the 5650 (~20W chip) and the i7-720QM (45W chip) together triggers throttling on the 14. Stressing both with FurMark and Prime95 will cause temps to raise to 90-95C, which is pretty hot.

Because you have an Envy 17, temps are likely to be much higher than what I have. I think the only solution here is to complain and get your Envy swapped out with a newer SB model. I know someone here has already had that happen due to extremely high temperatures. His pre-SB envy was swapped for an SB envy. I'm pretty sure HP is not going to put out a fix for all of the Envies, because of the inadequate cooling systems they have in them. The 17 only has one fan, right? That's not nearly enough air being pushed around...

 

Intel builds thermal protection into their processors at the hardware level. There isn't anything that ThrottleStop or any software can do to disable these features. Whether you are using ThrottleStop or not, if the CPU reaches the thermal throttling point at 100C, the CPU will throttle and if it ever reaches the thermal shutdown temperature at 125C, the CPU will shutdown to protect itself from damage. Any requests that ThrottleStop sends to the CPU during a thermal emergency are ignored by the CPU. Intel builds some incredible technology into their CPUs so no worries.

A ThrottleStop log file is the most accurate way to detect a thermal throttling problem. You can run ThrottleStop in monitoring mode to do this. A 720QM should never go under 1600 MHz when fully loaded. That is the rated default speed.

The throttling you are seeing is likely power consumption related and not thermal. This is what was happening in the Dell XPS 1645. Dell did an adapter recall and anyone that knew about this and complained got upgraded to a 130W power adapter. For most users, this still wasn't enough power to run the CPU and GPU at full speed while testing with Prime95 and Furmark. There was still some CPU throttling with this fix but usually the CPU would only throttle between the 11 and 12 multipliers.

metril: On the bottom of page 2 of your testing, did you look at what HWiNFO32 is reporting? It's showing a BCLK of 227.3 MHz which is wrong. Did you know that neither HWiNFO32 or CPU-Z follow the Intel recommended monitoring method for Core i CPUs as outlined in their November 2008 Turbo White Paper?

http://download.intel.com/design/processor/applnots/320354.pdf?iid=tech_tb+paper

ThrottleStop uses the Intel approved monitoring method so you can trust what it is telling you.

 

I updated the PDFs.

@unclewebb

Thanks for the info. I checked my results again. The BCLK was wrong the Uncore and QPI in the GPU 100% load case. However, the BCLK was correct for each of the cores. I was unable to reproduce this BCLK issue when I reran this case. The behavior of the CPU and GPU and the results pretty much stay the same. To be on the safe side, I updated to the latest version of HWiNFO32 and reran all my tests. I am getting almost dead on same exact results. Any variation was within 1C. Also, it appears that the latest version of HWiNFO32 does follow Intel's recommendations.

 

It doesn't appear to. Your screen shot shows one core using the full 21.00 multiplier while the other 3 are locked on 7.00. That confirms that HWiNFO32 does not follow the Intel recommended method. Windows always has background tasks running on the other cores so they don't sit continuously at 7.00. When these background tasks are activated, it is impossible for one core to continue to use the full 21.0 turbo boost multiplier.

Anyway, it looks like a power consumption issue. Running the CPU and GPU at full steam probably consumes more power than this laptop was designed to deliver. It took quite a while for Dell to own up to a similar problem.

If you have access to a Kill-a-Watt meter, you can do some testing with that and you will probably see a direct relationship between power consumption and when the CPU throttling begins. In the XPS 1645, as soon as power consumption reached a preset level, the CPU would start to throttle to keep the overall power consumption from getting too high.

Now all you have to do is get HP to admit to this and offer to do something about it. They might have a long list of excuses why the laptop they sold you can not run at its advertised specs.

 

That one screen shot shows one core at 21x multiplier. When I was watching it, all the cores were fluctuating and core 0 wasn't always using 21x.

 

So, my RMA status changed today. Seems that HP is trying to contact me now. I called HP back, but my case manager had left the office. Another case manager looked into my status.

Basically, the RMA center was unable to duplicate my issue using their default diagnostics and found nothing wrong with the notebook. They are now going to stress test it. The RMA center wants to contact me to find out how exactly I experienced the issue so that they can duplicate it. I was told that that I should be contact sometime tomorrow afternoon.

 

Another update.

I called in the morning and spoke with a different case manager. I was told that someone from the repair center may contact me and that my case manager would be asked to contact me once she arrived. I called two more times throughout the day hoping that someone either had more information or that the service log had been updated.

My case manager returned my call. According to what she saw, my issue had been elevated to a higher technical team. Since I had not been contacted yet, she said to assume that the repair center had been able to duplicate my issue.

 

Update:

Got a call from my case manager today. HP is saying that they could find nothing wrong with my unit. I was never contacted by the repair center. I was told that they ran a bunch of "tests" and when I questioned what tests, I was told that the repair center ran tests to determine if there was something wrong with the laptop. Since my case manager was unable to provide me with details on the tests and how HP determined there was nothing wrong with the laptop, I again asked to speak to someone who worked on my laptop. I was told it was a company policy not to have customers talk to the repair center.

I then said that I will test the laptop myself when I receive it back. If I uncovered the same issue, I asked what can I do then and was told that HP had determined on their end that nothing was wrong with it. So I ended the call saying that I would take whatever necessary steps on my end and requested a number to which I could forward a legal complaint and was provided with one.

It just amazes me that customers are just supposed to take HP's word that nothing is wrong and when further questioned, are either told things like, "I am only a case manager. I am not a technician." When asked for more information, the least HP can do is provide that more information. I simply asked for what stress tests were run so that I could run a similar test on my end. And then, I am given a bunch of bs about company policy about not talking directly with the repair center. Basically, I am left in the dark as to what HP did.

I will retest my Envy 17 once I receive it. If I am able to uncover the same issue, I cannot ever recommend HP again. Others have not had any issues and those people, best of luck and I hope that you continue to have no issues.

To those of us that have had issues or are currently having issues with HP, JUMP SHIP!

2 hours later...

To make matters worse, my Envy 17 no long appears in HP's system. I am unable to access my Customer Service Order Status. When I talk to chat support, I am told that the estimated delivery date is next week. What the heck is going on?

 

Got the notebook back today. Lo and behold, I redid my tests and the processor still clocks below 1.6 GHz when the processor and GPU are both loaded. Processor speed hits 1.2 GHz every single time and sometimes goes low as 1 GHz.

I asked my case manager for more information as to how HP stress tested my system. I want to know what programs they used so that I can test it similar to how it was tested at the repair facility. My case manager keeps telling me that I cannot talk to the repair facility and that she cannot ask the repair facility for more information. I told her that when I contacted HP regarding the HOLD placed on my laptop, I was told that someone from the repair facility would contact me if they were unable to duplicate my issue. No one ever contacted me. The best she could do was send an email and maybe the repair facility would respond back.

I keep getting the excuses, "I'm only a case manager" or that "HP has other customers and cannot spend time on just one customer". I could care less about other customers. As long as I am on the phone with you and you are looking at my case, your responsibility is to resolve my issue and my concerns to the best of your ability and not give excuses about having other customers.

To make things even worse, the laptop came back with dirt and dust and grim stuck to the screen. I wiped it off using a lense wipe and a microfiber cloth, but it seems that the repair facility managed to nick the glass. I now have a nice abrasion almost in the middle of the screen. It looks like a dead pixel, but it's about the size of 3-4 pixels grouped together. Open a document and it looks like a slightly oversized comma.

 

Another update:

I sent an email to HP and within 2 hours or so, was contacted by Executive Customer Relations. I did this because I had exhausted all other channels. No one was able to provide me with more information. The processor throttling was not the only issue I had with my Envy 17. I've had several other parts replaced.

The guy from Executive Customer Relations was forwarded my email and told me that he would have a high level technician contact me tomorrow so that we could organize some time to discuss the issue and hopefully get it resolved.

 

Update again:

So, it took more than 2 days after the call from Executive Customer Relations to speak to an engineer, but HP kept its word.

I spoke to an engineer yesterday and basically gave him all the information he needed. Luckily, I had already composed a document (see original post). I spoke with the same person again today and reached a resolution.

According to HP, the Envy 17 is more of a multimedia machine and not a gaming machine. This I can agree with since gaming machines tend to have much heavier and beefier heat sinks. I originally bought my Envy 17 to aid with my research. I wanted a machine that looked good while performing great. I wanted to be able to utilize the full potential of the CPU and GPU so that I could use the machine at conferences to quickly post-process data and serve up extensive and detailed figures/plots. Perhaps this was expecting a bit too much since something of this caliber would require a gaming grade machine, AKA an ugly looking and too expensive Alienware.

My throttling issue seems to be different from the SB throttling issue in the sense that my processor is not stuck at the lowest frequency, but instead drops down 2-3 multipliers from the default speed of 1.6 GHz. This, according to HP, is due to the processor fail-safes. There is no way to override this in the BIOS or anyway through software. I agree that it is a fail-safe, but I think that perhaps the mechanism responsible for this is overreacting.

Well, what HP offered astonished me. I was given two options. One, HP would buy back the notebook for the same price I paid for it. Two, HP would create a notebook of comparable specs to the Envy 17-1011nr I have now.

At the moment, I am opting for option two since it is very hard to find a notebook that looks as good as the Envy and has comparable performance. The new notebook would be overall better than the current one, but without the 3D screen. Also, it would carry the standard 1-year warranty.

I am going to ask about upgrading the screen because I had an idea of how to improve the presentations I give to clients. It would be a post-processing effect, but it would be cool if I could get 3d plots to actually show up in 3D. It would take visualizing data to the next level, but of course it would be a lot of work to get the groundwork laid. Definitely not a deal breaker for me, but perhaps HP will let me pay a bit extra.

I was quite impressed with the engineer I spoke with. For a long time, my impression of HP has been tainted by the technical prowess of front line customer and technical support. There'd be the occasional outcast who knew quite a bit, but was hindered by his/her support position. Well, I must say I enjoyed discussing the inner workings of processors and really enjoyed talking about the tech industry itself. And of course, what PC user in the right mind doesn't enjoy trashing Macs?

After all was said and done, my impression of HP has changed. Maybe I expected too much? Oh well. I think HP went beyond my expectations. Now all that is left is to finalize my choice.

And one more thing, CoolSense is more than just the software. The Envy 17 motherboard layout was actually changed between the 1000 and 2000 series.