Envy/Mac

Man, they updated the Macs. Just got through a review over at laptopmag.com about the Mac Pro 15 with i7. It got 8 hours on their battery test. With an i7.
How? Seriously. How? A bloody DM3 with SU7300/4500MHD barely gets 8 hours. I mean, I honestly do not understand. The Envy 15 with 15-cells (15!) can't even begin to sniff 8 hours.

What do these fools at Cupertino know that apparently nobody else does? FFS a netbook with an ATOM CPU can't get 8 hours. We are talking about a bloody i7 here, this guy has a 45watt TDP, and it's getting 8 hours.

Man, it's truly a superior machine.

Laptopmag summed it up pretty well...
"But if you want a big screen, excellent battery life, and plenty of muscle in a compact package, no other system comes close."

If only it didn't cost so bloody much.

It's the little touches that really annoy me. Like...the backlit keyboard. Is it really that bloody hard to figure out ppl like backlit keyboards? Why do no bloody pc manufacturers incorporate this? I mean...why? Edge to Edge glass....it's beautiful. Switchable graphics (HELLO ENVY staff). The tiny power connector. Have you seen HPs connector? haha. It juts out about 3 feet out the side of the laptop. This little connector on the mac is so tiny and small and points backwards. I know price. But man, how much does it cost to change the power connector? Really. Heck, if anything, you would be saving money by not using 5 pounds of plastic. How much does a backlit kb cost? $20? Put it as an option fools on the website. Akhhhhhhhhh.

 

it's not magic. MBP will run longer on battery because it can use integrated gfx while Envy has ATi 5830 on all the time which is +24W/hr. i'd take the better GPU over longer battery life.

 

that 8 hour life you got was with the integrated graphics. if envy had switchable graphics like the mbp did, i'd estimate around 5 hours of battery life too, so 8 hours is no biggie considering they crammed as much battery as they could in there (not removable, all the latches and connectors and battery casing that would be present on a normal removable battery is now.... battery).

 

All that you just listed is why it costs $800 more.

 

Not really. Let's see, pcmag got 3 hours 21 minutes on their MBP refresh. Doesn't sound like 8 hours to me. Actually that sounds like what an Envy i5 with a downclocked GPU might be able to muster.

And the OLD envy already wiped the floor with the MBP in performance if you look at their comparison chart:

http://www.pcmag.com/image_popup/0,1871,iid=257284,00.asp

Performance is significantly improved with the 2nd gen envy (which came out 3 months ago) and battery life is better.

 

It got 5 hours on Engadget with everything normal (not super power saving). Envy is only 2.

 

My goodness. This is turning into a mac/apple ppl already not thinking properly.

OK. First of.. those benchmarks are comparing an i5 Mac to an i7 Envy. I'm not surprised the Envy won. Laptopmag compared i7 to i7, and the Mac beat it by 500 points on pcmark vantage...all the while not in it's native OS.

Regarding the 5 hours on Engadget... that was watching a movie the entire time. Laptopmag got 8 casual browsing. Anandtech got 8 casual browsing.

Telling me the Mac has a bigger battery life...lolz. The i7 with the additional NINE..... NINE cells glued to the bottome can't get 6 hours of battery life. We are talking about bloody FIFTEEN cells of battery power. Then comes the IGPU, well, why don't the fools at HP then use the GPU that's already built in to the system. Heck, they use the IGPU on the DM3 with switching to the 105m, so don't tell me cost.

I know the Mac is $800 more....I understand that. But some of the little things, HP could easily do. Some of it is just plain stupidity on their part.

People see Apple and just have to bash it. Anyway this is going to become something of a political debate. PPL saying the Envy outperforms the Mac when they are comparing i5 to i7. lolz. Then saying the Mac only gets 4 hours of battery life when it's being benchmarked and run it full tilt, then compare it to the battery life of the Envy playing minesweeper. Ridiculous. Compare i7 to i7. Mac actually gets 500 points higher on Pcmarkvantage. If anything, they will be just about even. No advantage to either, they have the same components. Think. Regarding battery life.... man, the Mac i7 gets bloody 8 hours of battery life doing "casual work" such as browsing. Alright? The Envy i7, WITH the EXTRA NINE cells.....is rated at 6 hours by HP, and everyone knows HP's battery figures are wayyy overblown.

And I just read the PCmag article, it gets 3 hours and 20 min in some bapco benchmark running in Windows....ok. In OS X, playing a movie thus having the DISCRETE GPU RUNNING, it ran for FOUR hours. So throw out the "ooo envy with igp da da da crap." I wanna see an Envy hit 4 hours playing a movie. Actually, I don't even want to see 4, let it hit 2...2 hours playing a movie.

Again, doing casual browsing, a bloody netbook with a 6-cell battery with an ATOM bloody cpu, barely gets 8 hours or so. This bloody machine has an i7 and is getting 8 doing casual browsing. I'm sorry, but that's something else.

My point was simple, HP should look at Apple and realize in many cases it's the little things that cost. Forget about the stupid laser etching and give me a proper power connector. Forget about the fancy boxing and give me a backlit kb. Use the bloody IGPU that comes with every i5. And was expressing awe that a laptop with an i7 can get 8 hours of battery life doing casual browsing/web processing. If a DM3T with SU7300/4500MHD has trouble hitting 8 hours, than an i7 hitting it is a bloody achievement.

Anyway. I'm done here.

 

So, go get the Macbook. If everyone in this world buys a Macbook, it will send a strong signal to the PC makers that they need to improve their products. See what happens after the iPhone is launched? Now, everyone's making cool mobile devices (yes, everything else before it were just plain bricks).

 

nu_D

Can I ask question? Please don't jump on me. A genuine question.

How inferior do you think the new Mac's GPU is compared to the Envy?

 

The GT 330 is essentially a rebadged GT 240, which was a 16 pixel pipeline add-on to the 9600M GT. The Envy's HD 5830 is a high end card that was made on a whole new architecture. The GT 330 is just a rebadged mid-range card and it is a shame Apple didn't go for at least a 5730 or GT 335.

 

@ Nu_D

Some of those things can't be done because of patent infringement issues. And Apple is quick to pounce on such perceived violations. Naturally, considering.

 

I would go with the envy.

 

1. The Macbook uses an i7 620M 35W TDP same as an i5 540M 35W TDP. Basicly its just a really high end Dual Core not like the quad core i7 720QM 45W TDP.

2. You do realized that in order to use the integrate graphics of the CPU requires a HM55 motherboard? The Envy 15 got a refresh what in early January? Even now not a lot of notebooks have that chipset yet. Maybe thats why Apple waited so long to refresh their Macbooks.

3. Since i7 720QM are Clarksfield CPU they don't have the built in integrated graphics so it would have been a waste for HP to use the HM55 when the more readily available and cheaper PM55 were already out. It's probably why you don't see the i7 620M CPU option on the HP site anymore.

4. The GT 330M 256mb is less power hungry


Iono why people are so surprised it gets such long battery life. Give HP time and they will refresh the Envy with the a new chipset and all it it's features. Hopefully they still keep the powerful 5800 series graphics along with a new all glass bezel or backlit keyboard...

 

Yeah my biggest beef with the Envy is the lack of backlit on the keyboard. Many Dells have it since last year, even the little M11x "netbook" has it. The Envy's keyboard feels so good to type on, it's really too bad HP had to add an extra column of useless keys. If the keyboard was backlit it wouldn't be that bad. The ironic thing is the Dells have backlit, but I never have to look at the keyboard to adjust brightness - fn-down to dim, fn-up to brighten. They should all be the same way.

That magsafe plug on the Mac notebooks is the best thing ever. Apple probably has multiple patents on it so I don't expect to see it on anything else. And before anyone says this ingenious design is all Apple's, some appliances like hot water dispenser and rice cookers have had a magnetic power plug eons ago.

 

Mac OS X is ridiculously optimized for battery life. If you run a MBP on Windows 7, it'll drop by a few hours in battery life. This is from personal experience.

And Atom netbooks have batteries like 1/4 the size of a MBP.

Envy15 has way more "muscle" in a similarly compact package as a MBP, and actually comparable batterylife in Win7. I get 6.5 hrs browsing with office and AIM open on my Envy15 + slice battery, Yes that means I have a big battery, but I also have a much more powerful processor than the i7 620 and my gfx card eats up power more than intel integrated graphics.

 

The fact that the Mac battery is sealed in the case means users are limited to the 5 or 6 hours or however long the MBP lasts on reduced performance setting, with no possible way to extend it for long international flights, travel, etc.

I bought 2 extra slice batteries, for a total of three including the one that came in the box. I will be testing them out on a trip to Europe soon, but by extrapolating from how long it lasts with one slice battery, I imagine the Envy 15 will last around 10-12 hours with 2 slice batteries and 16-18 hours with three of them.

 

If you're fine with carrying 13 pounds of weight with you, more power to you.

 

Meh. I carry 5 times that when I go hiking / camping.

Also, sounds like he's travelling. Just put the battery(s) in the carry on bag which can roll nicely on wheels. Weight's not much of a concern, while the Envy's compact (particularly depth, i.e., height of screen) will make it perfect for use on a plane in coach - maximizing screen size you can fit on that tray in front with the passengers seat back. But I have a feeling this guy will be in first class anyways...

 

I think the main reason MBPs get poor battery life under Windows is that the discrete graphics card is always used, with no support for switchable graphics. That, rather than OSX, seems to be the main reason.

 

I agree - the "main" reason. I do believe it's a combination of other issues, though, in addition. Like PCI-e link power states, USB selective suspend, proper support for CPU low power states & south-bridge. Probably more. All these things need proper drivers to be correct and in agreement with the hardware to function properly in the many low power modes available from APCI standards Intel and ATI specific stuff. It all adds up. I say this must be the case 'cause the MBP's batt life in Win7 really is that poor. I mean the Envy's battery is only like 60% of the capacity of the MBP's, has a much better GPU, twice to FOUR times the video memory, yet the Envy still gets like 65% (or more) of the MBP's battery life with the right tweaks (disable un-needed things in BIOS, underclock GPU, run a Core i5, proper updated drivers, clean install, etc.)

It could be that if apple actually made some decent drivers available things would improve a lot in Win7. I really feel they intentionally cripple Win7 to make OSX look that much better. Oddly enough, that's enough to get me to NOT consider the MBP, otherwise I would seriously consider it myself for a windows machine for the build quality, etc. I have no use for OSX.

 

Considering Acer is claiming around 8 hours of battery life with their 15" TimelineX models, and that's with a 66Wh battery instead of the 77.5Wh in the 15" MBP, I don't think the gap between Windows and OSX is that significant.

I think it's just that Apple were for some time the only ones to put any effort into optimizing battery life with drivers and hardware, but they never really bothered to do the same for Windows, so it looked like OSX was superior for battery life.

 

Absolutely agree with you. I had a 13" MBP for a little while. Absolutely love the build quality, but (flame suit on) totally hated OSX. Win7 ran like crap on it, especially the touchpad. It really felt like it was deliberately crippled.

 

My MBP does not have discrete graphics and I get much lower battery life in windows.

 

Fair enough, but it would be far worse with discrete graphics nonetheless.
Besides, my point about the TimelineX still suggests that the battery life has more to do with driver/hardware optimization than the operating system itself.

 

i used osx on my HP ( don't ask how ) , i got like 10 min more when browsing , its not the OS....... its the switchable graphics and the under clocked components


performance / price : ENVY
Battery / price : = envy + 12cell battery
U like MAC : go buy one , if u r not a hardcore user u ll like it , u like to tweak alot and find a lot of compatable programs whenever u think of one don't buy em , u listen to music /surf / use Adobe/ableton/logic studio / final cut --- u need the mac

 

Are you suggesting that the under clocked components on a MBP become normally clocked in Windows?

 

can't assure so , but i am sure that switchable graphics macs makes a huge difference , OSX on HP 2.10hr AVG (9600 always on because its the only card ), on windows 2hr AVG (9600 always on )

 

but i noticed something when running cpu intensive programs like when using Ableton live studio ( music production and mixing program ) , the HP gets hotter on windows than on mac ------ i mean ALOT hotter like 15c -25c more than osx

EDIT: also i think the 10 min diffrence on windows is due programs running in background , i have like 7 programs including antivirus

To some up my Vote is for the switchable graphics not the OS , the switchable graphics makes the battery life

 

How? ;-)

Was it worth it? I would like to run Final Cut on my Envy, do you think it's possible if I create a hackintosh partition? Or not worth the trouble.

 

I'm not so sure that's true. I suspect that what you really have to do is look at a couple of different scenarios. Sitting at Idle, the i7 MBP (which, btw, is the i7 620, and NOT the quad core i7-720 available in the Envy 15) can get very good battery life. I have no reason to doubt Anandtech's claimed ~8 hours of battery life. Now, start running some benchmarks that really stress the entire system, and re-measure battery life. The only benchmark I've seen is the "heavier usage" scenario on Anandtech's site (I didn't read any others, so I can't comment) and battery life is now just under 3 hours. Looking at some other benchmarks of laptops with similar capabilities of the MBP, the same kinds of things fall in line with reasonably close numbers. It's not uncommon to see 2-3 hours of battery life with a laptop with an i5 processor and integrated graphics (that have similar battery capacity) while surfing flash heavy sites on the intertubes and doing other things too (like watching 720p movies).

I think that Apple has gone all out with the OSX software to super-optimize for battery life when it can. I'd like to measure what the power draw just sitting idle at the desktop is (using Kill-A-Watt, for example) vs the Envy.

I think that the Envy is at a disadvantage due to its (significantly) more powerful GPU over the integrated unit on the MBP (which is being used most of the time). Based on the heat output of the MBP while doing GPU demanding things, however, it seems that the GT330m GPU also can also consume a lot of power (but it's still quite a bit less powerful than the GPU in the Envy 15).

All in all, if you don't play any games (or play casual ones at most), the MBP is a very nice (but expensive) machine. If you, however, enjoy playing games on a 15" laptop, the Envy is clearly the better machine. Plus, it's significantly cheaper.

Oh, and I forgot to mention - you can't get the MBP with an excellent SSD for a reasonable price, at least, not from the Apple store.

 

shut-up (sorry for that ) , or topic will get closed

 

I see another reason to avoid the mac. Do the users all type like that in the apple forums?

 

i bought the mac cause i like it , and i like the battery life AND because i already have a PC , i am just saying for the people like me who like to tinker alot with computers a mac is not a good choice for ur main laptop , but if u already have a good laptop u should consider a laptop that is stable with good battery life and good appearance , for sound/video/image editing software i think mac would be the best choice , u just do ur work , browse internet and listen to music , and the next time u open ur mac its like a very little percentage there is something wrong with it ( like a driver program , or a program u downloaded that messed with ur registry file )...... IT JUST WORKS

N.B: I am MAC... I am PC

 

You guys do realize its a dual core i7 not a quad core i7? And yes the GPU on the Envy is far better and pulls more power. The MBP has integrated graphics as well. Throw in the lower res screen and it better get better battery life! There's enough battery in there to take up half the laptop.

 

the i7s on ENVYs are quad core, the i7s on MBPs are dual core.

 

PERFORMANCE & gaming -----> ENVY
BATTERY LIFE -------> mac
/end of story

 

Except ENVY + Slice in Win7 > MBP in Win7 in battery life.

 

So if you want to buy 2 laptops, then get a mac. That is a hell of a slogan.

 

95% of people won't need to tinker with their laptops like Audio and video professionals , and normal users , a mac is like a perfect choice for them if they can afford it , easy interface and stable for them

 

Well, many of these professionals need to run software that simply isn't available in OSX. For those professionals who run software which works with OSX, they also have to consider the possibility of the need to run a program in Windows in the furture, perhaps out of a need for a new client. Yes, I know, dual booting. But sometimes (many times) that is not the best solution.

 

parallels is the solution , windows inside osx

 

Parallels won't run everything, and what it runs is slow.

 

Well yah Koshinn I was talking about the Dual Core i7 on the MBP. Just wanted to make the point that the dual core i7 would pull less power than the quad core i7.

 

My problem is I need to use Final Cut for work, so I've been using a MacPro for a while, but honestly, if the MBP refresh delivered USB 3.0 and HDMI ports, I would probably have gone with the MBP instead of the Envy.

 

And ultimately, the software is what will drive the purchase, for consumers and for business. If the applications you have to run are only available on OSX, then your choice is clear. If they're only available on Windows, well, you get the picture (oh, and you can make far more choices, but that's for another topic). For my business, the software costs significantly more than the cost of the hardware itself (thanks, Oracle, for increasing my costs when you bought out BEA...), so that makes the actual cost of the hardware relatively unimportant. Also, for my work, a simple integrated GPU is more than enough to do what I need it to do (at least, until more OpenCL applications arrive...)

BTW, I think that Apple's move to DisplayPort is actually a good thing. HDMI has a couple of problems with it (namely, royalty fees, and "limited" bandwidth compared with DisplayPort). I think that it will, in general, be a good thing in the long run.

 

Why do you keep repeating this mantra of easy interface and stability for macs? I honestly cannot remember the last stability issue I had with my XP tower or my current windows 7 laptop. I don't really get the easy interface comment either. You click the start button in windows to bring up your programs or you have a desktop icon. Is that really so much harder than the mac dock?

 

its easy for u , its easy for me i get it , we are people who good with computer stuff , we are NBR members , other people just get viruses from random download and ads from internet , i didn't get infected by any virus during the last 3 years , but i know alot of people who got infected cause they are not into computer stuff ( antivirus , updates , avoiding scam adds ) , got my point??

 

Oh, yes, I also support Apples move to DP and their driving of a few other key emerging technologies.

 

Exactly. I've run Vista and Win7 for 2+ years now with never an AV program and I've download everything from torrent's, to p-orn , to pretty much anything you can think of that people associated with infected sites... and I have never had an issue with a Virus.

 

Even though you're safe and smart about your computer usage, there are some viruses out that can, for example, infect your computer by plugging in a usb drive that was plugged into another infected computer (even though no files were copied by the user).

Even though I've never had a virus in a decade of heavy computer usage, I still use anti-virus software because from time to time, there are some pretty nasty viruses that can mess you up.