HORRIBLE Repair Serice!!!!!!!!

How is it an unorthodox request to ask for expenses when the computer was damaged by HP's repair service in the course of a covered repair, especially when HP denied their obvious responsibility in the matter for over two months afterwards; and the expenses were incurred in the course of trying to get them to own up to it?

And HP's 21 day policy as I understand it, had lapsed by the time the laptop was returned, damaged by their repair techs.

Why is Small Claims a waste of time? HP demonstrated very bad faith in the entire matter. A judge is going to recognize that and take it into consideration when considering damages. His state provides triple the damages in these type of cases. In a worse case scenario he would just win HP's initial offer plus his expenses anyway. He would only be risking his time.

 

Because they are giving him his money back on the unit. He didn't have to incur the $50. There are others who have had similar problems with scratch & dent with HP repair and didn't spend a proverbial or actual dime to get it resolved.

It's a waste because of the economics. (asking $50 for expenses minus court filing fee, service to HP, gas, etc). And he may risk losing HP's offer to refund him his purchase price altogether. In court, it's his word versus theirs. They can always claim that he sent it to them that way and what inconvertible proof is there to the contrary?

Like I said, before, just giving the straight dope rather than cheerleading him on to an uncertain and possibly more disappointing end. With HP's offer to refund him, here we have a bird in the hand rather than 1000 in flight.

 

I believe this issue of laptops being scratched during depot repair should be highlighted to the media, i.e. places like Engadget, etc. so they can be brought to light.

It is a constantly recurring theme with HP's consumer repair services and it is unacceptable. When this has put considerable dent in HP's image, only can we expect them to own up and reign in their outsourced service centre techs. I mentioned that this is a common issue because it has not only occurred in the US, but I've seen similar cases reported in other countries, particularly AP markets (not sure if any in Europe).

A recent tech I spoke to agreed that the new Pavillions are not designed to be easily-serviced, hence a lot of prodding and prying around parts by inexperienced techs. They are meant to look beautiful, but not necessarily practical. The same applies to Apple's MBPs which are also a pain to service. By contrast, the business notebooks like the 8510p or the Thinkpads are far easier to repair.

I've dealt with many techs over the years, and only 2 have actually looked at HP's service manual to discover the right screws and spots to disassemble the notebook. The others just do it "based on experience", and it is very disconcerting when they have never serviced a new model and assumed it to be "standard" HP/Compaq and start hacking away. It just doesn't work that way!

 

The $50.00 was already incurred in expenses trying to get HP to own up to their responsibility, there was no way to avoid it.

There is no such thing as inconvertible proof in any court case. He has good documentation. HP has demonstrated bad faith in their dealings with him and they have admitted fault for the damage done to his laptop by making an offer to refund his money.

 

Actually, no they haven't admitted fault by offering a refund. That's not how the law works, especially tort law in the US. That's like saying a settlement is admitting fault.

And as I said before, there are others who did not incur those expenses in trying to get HP to own up to the scratch and dent during repair. Their outcomes vary from getting an entirely new and/or upgraded unit to getting a refund. And in some cases a bonus or two. So there was a way to avoid these alleged expenses. Bad faith dealing is subjective and would in all probability be ignored in court since they (HP) offered a full refund.

What Chrixx says above is the way to go. Bring public awareness to this tech repair issue. But do it for free or inexpensively. Forums, blogs, etc. Use the power of the internet. Write a letter to Mark Hurd and other execs. Small claims court isn't the way to go for $50. It's practically senseless when you add up all the costs, variables, and situation.

Why encourage the OP to take an unnecessary risk for ego and soul satisfying sake? He should take the money and run. Then learn a lesson that there are more practical and inexpensive ways of dealing with companies when things go belly up. Principle - sminciple. End the angst and worry now. A little mourning for the loss of time and money, then comes relief. And perhaps a better perspective.

 

Of course they are. Why would they offer to pay for the laptop unless they thought that thay were at fault. They know vertical2010's evidence was good enough to prove they had damaged it and they could no longer get away with denying it? Do you think they are suddenly making an offer out of the kindness of their hearts? Trying to muddy the water by making a "legal" distinction about fault is pointless. The common sense view of fault is clear.

What do other HP customers' experiences have to do with his particular one? All of the HP reps vertical2101 dealt with gave him the run around. Are you suggusting that this is a proper business practice and that HP's dealings with him were fair and reasonable? He had no choice in the matter.

What lesson do you suggust he learn? That corporations can conduct atrocious business practices because they know they can get away with them?

It is unlikely that this case would ever end up in court. A lawsuit raises the stakes and will probably garner a much better offer from HP. But if it did, it is again unlikely that HP would show up as the costs are prohibitive. This would favor vertical2010 and the judge may decide to award him much more for the bad faith dealings of HP.

You may not care for principles but others do. HP shouldn't get away with how they treated him. And unless more people are willing to go through the hassle of taking legal actions nothing will ever change.

 

Ok whatever. He'll make his own choice. I hope he makes the wise one based on actual experiences, how the law actually works, calculated probabilities and economic reality rather than one based on an activist's musings and desire to use him as a proxy for the sake of their own worldview.

I for one would like to see him at a minimum, cut his losses and end his angst rather than prolong them into an uncertain and less likely outcome. There are those who know how to deal with companies to their own or mutual advantage without ever having to resort to incurring expenses which have little chance of being recouped or inducing hostility with a company with threats that may have little to no legal merit.

Last word's yours if you wish to take it.

 

I agree, Vertical2010 needs to make his own best choice based on his own principles and values.

By the way I am curious, do you work for HP?

 

Good question Canyon. We know HP reads these posts so it's very reasonable to assume that some of those going out of their way to defend HP might have some connection. We know HP has experience with "pretexting." Thanks again for your support and excellent posts in this and the other thread.

I have read all the pros & cons offered here (thanks!) and still plan on filing in small claims court - didn't get to it yesterday but today looks better. I understand there are potential negatives, but the pros win out for me.

I'll put these out in case others are thinking about it also. The main reason I am going ahead is that Canyon is correct: HP has acted unethically and in BAD FAITH throughout this entire matter, much more so than any other company I have ever dealt with. This was not just an honest difference of opinion. It occurred to me that no one at HP ever questioned my initial claims about support denying the problem ("it's probably normal"), followed by blaming others (Microsoft, 3rd party drivers) and then forcing me to run the unit boiling hot - with a defective fan - for hours of troubleshooting before agreeing to accept it for repair. They didn't question it or deny any of this because that's the way HP support normally does business. As for the scratches and solvent damage during repair, they also did not seem surprised or (initially) deny such damage. I'm sure I cannot have been the only one with such complaints. It wasn't until well into this, when it looked like I wasn't going away, that the case manager tried to blame the physical damage on me. (By the way: For those who haven't been reading previous posts, this laptop was a month old and we're not talking a few minor scratches. We're talking a chip and two abrasions, and several long scratches on the cover. And it's a black, dimpled surface - as in not shiny. You have to work at it to scratch it!).

In short, I believe HP's actions indicate they knew from the start that my claims were all very likely true because they were indicative of a widespread pattern of inferior, unacceptable support. It's very likely they've had many similar claims, and have probably known for some time that they've had a serious problem with their warranty support/repair service. It's was rated last by Consumer Reports (June 2008 issue) for a reason - probably due to outsourcing everything to the lowest bidder without ensuring adequate technical competency, training or quality controls (that would have cost $$).

HP should have taken action to resolve the problem and provide competent service under the warranty contract, both in my case and in general. In other words, treat their customers fairly and honor their legal obligations. Instead, HP acted in bad faith by choosing a course of obstruction, deception, denial, harassment and obfuscation, setting up roadblock after roadblock in the hope that most customers would eventually give up and go away.

I think I've spent far too much time and expense on this, and put up with far too much abuse, to simply settle for what I initially asked for over two months ago. Additionally, as Canyon also pointed out, I believe HP only decided to change their tune because of my many posts, and yours, nearly all of which had the painful ring of truth. After I responded to an e-mail from ECR received thru this forum, and they were able to connect my case to my posts, suddenly ECR, previously self-described as "able to do nothing except relay messages to case managers," was miraculously empowered to attempt to settle the matter. Sorry, but too little offered, far too late.

As for trust, I have none left for HP, and therefore want a court-enforceable judgment or settlement. If I were to agree to the current offer, and send in my laptop in exchange for later payment, nothing is to prevent them from reneging. I can envision HP claiming they found indications of "consumer damage" after all, and withholding payment, and I would not have the laptop as evidence to dispute it.

Further, if we do try the case, I believe it very unlikely I would end up worse off. I may not be awarded double or triple damages (I've been told the bar is pretty high for that), but I believe I would at least prevail in the amount of the current offer, plus expenses and court costs, and it would be a court-ordered, enforceable judgment.

Finally, I'm fed up with the way many large companies treat their customers after the sale and get away with it (although HP has by far been the worst I've experienced). I think bringing suit would send more of a message that they cannot continue to do business in such an unethical and illegal fashion and expect consumers to continue to trust them and buy their products. Not just my suit, by the way, but hopefully the numerous other ones it encourages - maybe even a few state AGs piling on for good measure.

Thanks again to all for your advise. I'll keep you posted.

 

Work for HP? What would lead to that conclusion? Weird.

Anyway, thing is Vertical, and I'm going to give it to you very honestly, your experience is not at all common. So don't have delusions of grandeur that you're sending some message. In the grand scheme of things, considering that companies like HP and Dell sell millions of units per quarter, you don't really show up on the radar. Do you honestly think a small claims suit is going be a catalyst for change? Get real. Be sensible. The grand majority of people who have CS experiences with HP, Dell, Lenovo, and Toshiba actually fair well enough. All of these companies could stand for improvement. I've had my harrowing experiences but always came out ahead because I understand what's at stake and how to navigate the CS minefields.

I honestly hope this ends well for you. I really do. But should HP actually respond to your claim, the odds escalate considerably that it won't go in your favor. They don't have to show up on court day, they can simply respond to your claim in writing. And they have transcripts and logs of what they offered you and their version of what happened. And companies usually do respond to small claims suits unless they're cleverly served with notice at a location that delays their legal department's receipt. But courts are more inclined these days to make certain that you obtained the correct address for service when it comes to corporations. They don't like handing out default judgments (a judgment in which the plaintiff [you] wins due to failure of defendant [corp] to respond) in these kinds of cases because of the potential for abuse of the system via default judgements and the fact that many judges are elected and such things don't bode well for their careers.

Just go in with your eyes wide open regardless of the supportive grassroots cheerleading and proxy support you may find on the forum. Plaintiffs always think they have a case worth pursuing. But the truth is, most don't because they don't understand tort law and are disappointed with the outcomes. And that's a fact. Others here warned against it beside myself. You should really consider what we're saying with an open mind.

In any event, I wish you well. May the force be with you.

 

When it comes to sending in a notebook for repairs it is a scary ordeal no matter who your dealing with. The only thing one can hope for is that if its going to break, then hopefully its breaks in the first 21 days. My first notebook was a Toshiba satellite and it had issues. After sending it in the third time Toshiba finally replaced it and all was well. My second, a dell, had a crack in the case so I sent it back. The replacement had a crap screen so I send that back too for refund. My third, my current HP dv6500 was "a good one" After a year I have no issues to report. Its just luck IMO. Although I believe that HP's build quality is better then Dells and you are more likely to get a good one the first time around. I hope I never have to send this in.

Unfortunately I think the odds of getting a dud is fairly high with notebooks. They are such the commodity and mass produced with so many cheap electronic components that its amazing that any of them work. Certain things really have higher failure rates like optical drives and LCD panels. They can't seem to make those reliable enough. But its always easier to assemble these machines them reworking them and taking them apart. Thats when its fairly easy to scratch them up and if you have some inexperienced tech making near nothing wages its has a good chance coming back in worse shape. I think I would take a crap load of pictures of it before sending my notebook back.. maybe include them with the notebook.. just to make them think twice about how they would handle it.

The best way is to do your own repairs if you know how and just have them send the part. I know some people on the Dell forums do that.

 

Great idea. Also, send in a few pages from the service manual section on disassmbly and reassembly with your unit. Tech might even appreciate it.

That's they way I've done it with Dell and Sager using the cross ship method. That's when they send you the part, charge (put a hold on the card in the amount of the part), then return the bad part in the package the new one came in on their dime.

 

Thanks for the well wishes 2.0, and your well-thought-out concerns. But i have been to court many times in business matters, just not small claims court, and generally know the routine. I have already gotten the proper address for service from the Sec of State's office. I don't think MY suit will be a catalyst for change, but perhaps several thousand similar suits will be. Especially if state AGs pick up on it and sue for their constituents, or some aggressive C.A. attorney thinks it might be worth a try. I do know for a fact that nothing will ever change if everbody sits back and lets themselves be abused, figuring it's not worth it to sue.

And I have no delusions of grandeur, just delusions of some form of fair treatment. I hope HP does respond and show up. They can fly an attorney here over a relatively small claim, or hire a local attorney who really couldn't care less who wins (as long as he gets enough billable hours) and who probably read the case file 3 minutes before things kick off. Or HP could cite their considered response to my CH93A consumer protection act letter, to which they had 30 days to respond (except there was no response). Or their contempt for the CH93A process and Massachusetts law. Or their two months of abuse, lies and deception. So I still think I will prevail.

And I don't think my case is by any means isolated. What makes you say that? Got any evidence? If it is, one might think SOMEONE at HP would have pointed that out and happily remedied such an anomoly in an otherwise stellar support program. And surely they will bring documentation to show how incredibly rare such complaints are at HP, as well as instruction manuals for case managers & support personnel that don't tell them to deny, delay, deceive and obstruct. Of course, maybe that's just the wonderful informal culture that's developed at HP support.

Oh, by the way, judges aren't elected here. Don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing. But again, thanks for the warnings. I will definitely keep them in mind.

 

Thanks HI DesertNM. I'm jealous, it's absolutely beautiful up there! Anyway, I definitely got a dud, in terms of the unit itself and the repair tech. The heatsink fan failed after several HOURS of use. Unfortunately, I had waited 3 weeks to start transferring my data so I was past the return period. I took photos before shipment, but didn't think to include them in the box. Good idea. And they really butchered this thing (probably should be happy i can't see the inside). Large scratches, a chip & two abbrasionsons on the case. Also a large solvent stain on the case and solvent fingerprints ALL OVER the screen. Who could possibly imagine anyone would not be upset to get a notebook back like that. They flipped this thing upside down on a workbench, unprotected, and looks like at some point they grabbed a hold of the LCD screen for leverage (without gloves on). And it actually looks like it was spun around or slid on its cover as well. Maybe they shorted this techie on his pay. Or maybe he needed a drug test.

 

2.0 you are very definitive in your statement that Vertical's experience with HP is very unusual.

How are you so sure?

The only recent definitive source I have found was Consumer Reports June 2008 Issue. It contained several articles on different computer manufactures' consumer relaibility and satisfaction ratings. They rated HP last.

I am sure a lot of us reading the forum would greatly appreciate knowing the source of what you have read to support your conclusion. Especially those still in the market for new laptops who haven't yet decided what manufacturer to purchase from.

Thanks in advance for providing any data you may have.

 

Anybody notice the recently resurrected old threads on the main page of this forum somehow bracketing the latest update on this thread? Maybe an attempt to mask the large numbers of those who have read it. Or maybe I'm just paranoid..but think I'll keep an eye on it.

 

Ugh! Whenever I get tempted to buy an HP computer I see something like this.
$500 coupon or not, it doesn't look like it's worth the headache.

 

HP, Dell, Acer, etc, sell millions of PCs every 3 months. One shouldn't use a forum as a guide as the grand majority of people not only do not have a problem with nay of these companies, but aren't going to go about sending praise all over the web. It's when things go wrong, you'll find people vocal about it.

Hence the preponderance of complaints you find on forums for any manufacturer. If these complaints were the majority, would these companies continue to exist and profit as they do?

Read some of the Mac or Lenovo forums. Generally renowned for their reliabilty, you'd think those machines were seriously overhyped lemons.

 

I've read the Apple and Dell forums. Although there are complaints, I also see posts that praise the customer support to balance the posts with complaints. I don't see that for HP (though the HP forum is not the only forum with that problem).

 

True to a point for Apple. Not so true for Dell. Especially last summer. What a debacle that was. As for HP, you get the occasional praise especially for the product itself rather than for the CS. The horror stories are always horrible. There used to be more but that's come down a lot since last year and the year before. Dell's horror stories seem to have abated somewhat. I've been a loyal Dell customer for years. Never had a problem with their CS. The switch to the Indian CS reps took a little adjusting to but I actually received better CS thereafter. Little perks and free gifts here and there. Dell just doesn't make the kind of hardware I need. I've fallen into a niche they don't cater too. I've own HP products and like Dell, haven 't had any problems with them that I couldn't remedy. Found the CS to be very good. Just have to know how to deal with it. Which isn't all that difficult. a slathering of patience and giving the CS reps slightly more respect than they probably deserve. A little small talk beforehand helps also. Understand, they're human beings with feelings and you're probably buying things they can't afford. Appear to take an interest in them and they'll take interest in you.

 

I can praise HP customer support. They fixed my Tx2110us in less than a week. I mean I sent item Tues. and had it back by Fri.

 

My first laptop was an IBM Thinkpad. Built like a rock and never needed service. #2 was a Dell. A little plasticky (is that a word?) but only needed service once over 3.5 years - nothing serious, and it was actually a pleasant experience. I was treated like they wanted me to buy another Dell (almost did, except I found a great sale on a Gateway). #3, the Gateway I've owned for 2.5 years - never needed service or support, despite heavy use. Decided to try HP in March 2008 and my heat-sink fan failed after several HOURS of use and HP mangles it in repair (then denies it-tries to blame FedEx and, when that didn't work, me). Hence my current HP support / repair NIGHTMARE. Plus HP support/repair was rated dead last in the June 2008 issue of Consumer Reports and described as INFERIOR.

So don't try to tell me all companies are the same with regard to quality and support. I've probably spoken to 15 people at HP now and I've gotten the impression from ALL of them that they couldn't care less if I ever buy from them again. It can't be just a coincidence - they must be following scripts. It's as if they are TRYING to drive personal users away from their brand. Maybe that's their long term plan...just sell to businesses. Good luck getting support for your "personal lines" laptop then.

 

Again Kapblp, thanks for your input. Even the few who have had good experiences with HP repair should be allowed a voice here for balance. But I would not praise HP repair too much for two reasons. First, if you're too vocal, most of us will suspect you work for HP and discount it. Second, if your laptop requires repair again (very likely), the odds are it will NOT be such a pleasant experience, and you will regret your previous praise. But it's your decision..

 

Not for nothing but of course you realize that for each of the companies listed, there are those who have had experiences with them that generated that same reaction you're justifiably having with HP. And for each, there are those who have had good experiences and/or no problems.

Your case is your case. You can't take your experience and extrapolate it out to be representative of some sort of norm or developing trend. I know, you've cited Consumer Report's evaluation as proof of your claim. Yet, there are other evaluations that paint a somewhat different if not an all together different story. Hundreds of thousands and millions of people will continue to do business with all these companies and will have an overall good experience. A minority will have bad ones. Should that paradigm flip on any company, their profits will sink which sounds a call to action. Each of these companies went through it at some point in the lives. Some more than others. Crappy customer service cost more money than good in both the short and long term and they all know it.

You got a bad deal, no doubt. There's no one here, or at least I hope there isn't anyone here, who wishes other than that you come out ahead on this one.

 

Hey 2.0, i agree with much of that. My case IS my case, and may not mean much, EXCEPT when there are many others like it. And I sort of disagree with the statement "crappy customer service costs more money than good in both the short term and the long term AND THEY ALL KNOW IT," but only because it implies they would always be willing to maintain excellent support. I think most execs are more than willing to cut it to the bone in the short term to enhance QUARTERLY profits, thinking it won't come back to bite them until they are too far up the ladder to be touched, or at least be connected with it (it will likely be blamed on support personnel).

You won't find your average up-and-coming Exec in support, but rather sales, operations, maybe manufacturing & design. To them, support is a backwater and they look to make their mark in immediate, quarterly revenue increases or hot new products. When they need to cut expenses, support is a primary candidate for a poorly run company without the top leadership necessary to enforce a longer term focus. Farm out support to the four corners of the earth, cut training, deny liability, intimidate customers until they go away, and support expenses go down. The quarterly numbers will show it to be a hugely successful cost-saving scheme. It may be years before the horrible customer service aggravates enough customers that it is actually quantifiable enough (among many other sales data points) to actually show up in sales declines. But it will, and in the long run it is much more difficult and expensive to win back an alienated customer (like me).

I think the ability to focus on the long term and create a large base of satisfied and repeat long-term customers is what separates a truly excellent company from a mediocre or failing one. From my experience, HP falls into the latter category with regard to personal lines technology. The really sad thing is, after a few minutes on the phone, support personnel should easily be able to identify someone like you or me as a potential long term customer, and adjust their "script" accordingly. But if they don't hire competent people in support, and don't train them properly and pay them adequately, that won't happen. Support really should be an arm of sales, potentially a very lucrative one (you know -a satisfied customer might tell a few people. A really pissed off one will tell hundreds..or, via the Internet, millions). But it is sadly viewed as anything but at HP. Too bad.

 

Anybody know how we can consolidate this thread into a forum for all HP repair complaints? That way maybe HP can just read this thread to see what they need to fix.

 

Yeah well i understand that the tech's are making minimum wage and such, and that they probably dont have the basic computer understanding that a normal user would. But when you call in about your broken laptop and send it in for a graphics card problem, whereas they simply fix your secondary issue whom was sticky buttons. Yes they did exchange the burnt heatsink fan but they overlooked the fact that i was missing a resolution setting in the nvida control panel. So further on to my wonderful story when i got back the laptop from repairs. So when i now got my laptop back after a grueling three weeks of being broken [I was in sweden thats why it was delayed] i was so psyched about playing cod4 and world in conflict, so i start them up and their lagg is worse than a new years eve on horse tranquilisers. But finally something amazing happens It breaks AGAIN! from just playing cod4 but luckily i got one kill into the game before it happened so it wasnt a total waste of time, just a mere 39 seconds of pleasure. So currently its in for another stay at the hp service and im really lucky actually since my original warranty expires within 17 days , so luckily murpheys law didnt affect me this time.

Anybody else have any funny stories about hp service?


//Jacob

 

Just thought I would post a pic of SOME of the damage to the cover (doesn't show the chip) since others have done so in other threads (some with worse damage than mine). Mine was only one month old when i sent it in - no marks of any kind whatsoever. So here's some of the damage HP repair did:

 

And here's a pic of one of the two chips/gouges:

 

Don't forget Fujitsu, Phone service for the life of your laptop, and the tech support speaks english, not sanskrit.
Not to mention, assembled in Japan.

 

i am with you on that...I had this site open and hp's site open in another window....I read this and said to myself, "i hear so much negativity about hp, prob as much as acer/gateway, but that's another story...so I closed Hp's site, and will not buy one...they are one of the nicest looking though, but it sounds like a headache to own one....

 

You know, 2.0, rather than saying that millions are satisfied and those that mention grievous problems are drops in the bucket, I would wager that many keep mum and deal with the problems in different ways when they really should deal with the company. I think many lack the discernment and will-power to deal with corporations and maybe discouraged from dealing with companies by people, like yourself, who would discourage action because of the individual hassle.

Though I agree with you that this does have a certain "worldview" type of smell, there is something to be said for people who "take one for the team". If more people actually stood up for their consumer rights and just stood up for right practices versus wrong in general, there might be some headway in these matters. I hope his problem encourages those with the same difficulties to take real action, do real research, and make their voice and energy count. Every company has these problems - and I don't think they are few and far between - few go on forums to talk about the calls to tech support, but there are more than "just a few" who deal with poor service. Some just lay down and take it - I think there are a lot of people out there. Why would companies have there own, in-house service people on staff if problems were not widespread? There is an entire service industry dedicated to poor products - you have to go through several menus to get to real people. Seems like they field more than a few calls, no?

Though it is tough to win against a large corporation, vertical, I hope many more will win or lose, though it is at a cost. Negative rulings and positive rulings are still rulings, and people take notice of volume. Haven't we heard that negative attention is still attention? Somebody still sees it if you lose - but 2.0 is right in that if you are looking out for just you, you may have better luck taking the option they gave you. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I hope that somehow I never get so cynical to believe that one small claims court CAN'T make a difference. Chances are slim for widespread change, but eventually, droplets can equal a bucket. Passivity is what has allowed consumers to get weaker and walked all-over. Speak up: squeaky wheels get oil and companies don't want the hassle of this mess. Thanks for not being lazy. Complaining and doing something about this junk is what helps everyone in the long run. If you are in MA, you may get a liberal judge that hates corporations. I'm a conservative, but I believe in doing what is right, whether your a corporation or an individual. HP should do right by you and all customers who have had to deal with troubleshooting issues.

 

Too bad you didn't read my post on 1-16-2008 BEFORE you bought yours!
Got my Notebook back from HP Good/Bad/Ugly!
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=209219

 

All good thoughts. Let's recall that Vertical did get very far! So far that HP decided to override their 21 day money back guarantee policy and offered him his money back after two months of ownership. Well done. I don't think we should lose sight of that. Who knows what other types of outcomes others may have had given the same scenario before them.

Squeaky wheel got the grease.

You'll read on this forum and others, while having had to deal with some HP CS hassles and horrors, most were made whole without having to resort to legal remediation. Persistence is what paid off most. And most customers when unsatisfied, are persistent until they reach some sort of satisfaction. Given HP's and other manufacturer's free pick up and return, plus toll free CS numbers, the thing they lose most is time and confidence.

Here with Vertical, we have a case where money, time and confidence was lost. Money spent is the new variable added to the equation that could have been avoided. And the thing is, a judge will take note of that and may see that as an unnecessary and avoidable expense. Worse still, may also determine that since HP offered a full refund, the case itself is unnecessary allowing HP to simply settle without costs. (A judge may not look at the money spent in getting HP to satisfy the plaintiff's complaint as the motivation that lead to the refund offer. I forget the legal term for that offhand). Then Vertical would be out the claimed expenses plus the expense of having brought suit. I've seen it before. It's quite a common ruling. That's what worries me. Judges tend to be far more rational and impartial than the parties in contention.

While some were "Frickka-frackka firecracka zip-boom ba! Go team consumer! Rah! Rah! Rah!" I was actually looking out for Vertical's best personal interest. He may be compounding expense, lost time, frustration and disappointment, and for what? So the "team" can get some vicarious thrill at his expense? And heaven forbid if he should lose the case and report that on here, what'll be the response? "Awh, dude, that sucks man. HP sucks man! Damn." While they go about their lives having lost nothing in any of this. I can't do that in good conscious to a fellow consumer.

And in all this, it appears that Vertical's methodology used to arrive at the point in which HP decided to give him a full refund was overlooked. He engaged in a swift campaign of using consumer protection tools that many do not even know exist. That should be brought to the forefront as well. As that offers practical advice for all.

In any event, just bringing public awareness of this issue has cost HP sales. Ok so maybe not many sales. But the more complaints logged in review sites, the more weary consumers will be. HP will have to ante up and clean up their act if they wish their tenure as #1 to not be short lived. And that's the true power of the internet.

 

I have a Lenovo desktop and the one time I needed tech support was a good experience. They require hard drive rails if you want to add a second drive. They do not come in the box. So I had to call and they sent it free of charge over night. One might say they should have included it, but I can understand why they didn't.

That's not the same as laptop support, but could be similar.

 

Hey, great comments Techno Techie. And another great response from 2.0, but i hate to make you keep typing so much. But I think you might be missing that I don't really consider HP's offer a "good faith" offer. I told you I sent a demand notice under MA consumer protection act (Chapter 93A demand) to which they had 30 days to respond. They ignored it. The offer they did make was well after the 30 day period and only because they wanted to shut down these postings. AND they refused to put the offer in writing, AND it was contingent upon me returning the laptop first. Quite frankly, I DON'T TRUST THEM! I really can see them saying there will be no payment because I returned it damaged (you know, the damage THEY did in repair) and their warranty doesn't cover physical damage (would probably make me pay to have it shipped back). And they wouldn't even cover the small amount of expense included in the demand notice, as a matter of good faith. So anyway, too little, too late, and still jerking me around. I think any lawyer would tell us that, once you've started a legal process and your formal notice has been ignored, not to discontinue that process based on a promise in a phone call - from a party that had so far acted totally in bad faith (any lawyers out there care to chime in?). Anyway, think I'll forget HP for the rest of the weekend (unless somebody asks me what laptop they should buy). Have a good weekend everybody.

 

In any event, just bringing public awareness of this issue has cost HP sales. Ok so maybe not many sales. But the more complaints logged in review sites, the more weary consumers will be. HP will have to ante up and clean up their act if they wish their tenure as #1 to not be short lived. And that's the true power of the internet.[/QUOTE]

#1 in sales means nothing. What it means is that they give the biggest rebates, their models are sold everywhere, and because of this, the price can be very competetive. I read that their sales were/are#1, I'd rather be #1 in reliability and/or service.

 

Vertical,

The facts that HP never responded to your Chapter 93A Demand Notice and refused to make their refund offer in writing are key points. IMO this cements the justification and neccesity of your case in the law's eyes.

Furthermore it goes a long way in proving that HP has acted and is continuing to act in a very unethical and bad faith manner and is not to be trusted. These salient facts contribute significantly in raising you upwards towards that high bar standard in the damages determination aspect of your case.

I agree with you that HP has left you no choice but to proceed down the Small Claims Court legal avenue with them and that you will prevail well.

Enjoy the remainder of your weekend!

 

I agree with you 2.0 that you were looking out for vertical's personal interest, and that is why I said that if that was the option vertical wanted to take, there it is. I am trying to delineate the difference between why the long-haul would matter, and this is not entertaining, though I would love to see HP deal with the problems they have caused for once.

In reality, in dealing with Lenovo, I took the offer because, though upset about "general injustice and poor quality" I knew what would make me happy would be to fix the problem and remove some of the very deep buyer's remorse I was experiencing. I did not go on a crusade because their offer had been reasonable on paper though the hassle to me was frustrating and aggravating.

What doesn't sit well for me with just taking the money and running is the way that vertical was treated - as if nothing could be done, patronizing the customer, and not admitting wrong-doing. But when has a company EVER admitted wrong-doing? Never. But they may give the many voices of other customers in the future options because they had to pay a price. I'd love to not be patronized myself for admiring some honest hard work - I used the word "team" in figures, you know, like consumers should stick together? If the offer had been better to vertical, even a coupon that would equal the additional amount requested, that would be worth something - but they didn't even feel sorry - it was just an "okay, okay, fine, we'll do just THIS" response. I don't know if there are nearly as many fraudulent customers out there for them to treat everyone like they're lying about their problems or depot damages. I just hate the way they treated vertical, with no written apology or written offer or anything - are we so used to getting the bad end of the deal that we should be happy that after two months of badgering they make us an offer without any apology or any incentive to return to them with business?

 

But than comes the question about the written apology, what could be the legal reprimands if they actually issued one of them? could there be a backdraft of people actually suing them for bad service or what could happen if they would have done something like that? Well my computer is scheduled to come back from its second stay at the repairs tomorrow. So than ill check if theres any additional bumps and scratches to it, as well as actually check if they fixed what i put in my claim. Any ideas what i should check for and stuff?



P.s Ok, im getting it back now monday the 23, but strangely enough i sent it in the 17th 18th, thus it took them one to two buisness days to actually fix a broken Hard drive, cd drive as well as the original problem with the graphics card, Though in their claim they only stated that they fixed the graphics card.

 

Check everything closely, especially if it went to Georgia for repairs (check the address on the FedEx label). I would also run it through your own diagnostic checks.

 

Icenova: Did you get your laptop back. And is it fixed? And not damaged? I hope your are one of the lucky ones..

 

Well i was at work today when fedex came so i have to drive to springfield after work today to pick it up so ill keep you guys updated, the first thing im going to do is to check if i have all the resolution options since last time i had lost 1440 x 900 i think hahah, and i seriously i have no idea how you can actually loose a resolution setting in the nvida control.


Ok. the computers back now, i have the 1440 x 900 resoltion, and im installing cod 4 so now its just time to let it run and than weill c if they actually fixed my computer...

Ok so far so good, i put it through some basic cod4 and thankfully the 1440 x 900 is there now, so weill c what happens to the weekend i gotta go to bed now im **** tired from work sorry, ill keep u guys updated

 

Hey, do you have an 8600M GS? Could you possibly check the temperature of your GPU (and perhaps your CPUs) while you play CoD 4 for like, what, 45-60 minutes? You can use something like Hardware Monitor. I have an HP laptop with an 8600M GS myself, and I'm getting like 100 degrees Celsius after 30 minutes or so...and HP is telling me to send in my laptop. I was hoping to see what others get while they play CoD4.

 

Yeah will do, since in my first two claims i said that this problem is easily diverted by the help of some extra internal memory for the graphics card since i have the 8600M GS with 256 mb internal,.

They do make good computers to a reasonable price hp, but the thing is that some basic things the designers and developers should know is that we consumers are looking for more bang for the buck and they could probably sell this as a gaming laptop if they would have had the 8800 or a 8600 with 512 mb internal as a minimum, but i guess that they dont see the broad perspective of the gaming nation whom is underway of becoming a major consumer on the market.

Ok a first problem has risen, while playing cod4 for a short period fo time the driver shuts off, but is not borken simply fixed thus i cant play cod 4 without the driver malfunctioning, so ive installed new drivers and ill hope for the best now...

 

Sorry, super busy this past week. Whoever asked asked about the HP Case Manager (CM) yes, they will tell you they are the end of the line and there is "no one higher" you can speak with (FALSE). And Executive Customer Relations (ECR) will tell you that "they can do nothing" except forward your concerns to the CM (FALSE). Both statements are part of the deception, obfuscation and intimidation process to make you go away. And BOTH statements are false. DO NOT hesitate to tell them you know they are false, and reference this forum (even this post if need be. And feel free to contact me.) ECR can in fact step in to take action to attempt to resolve matters. They simply won't do it until it looks like you're not going to give up and go away. They did it in my case (too little, too late, however). After 2 + months of saying there was "nothing" they can do, they made an offer to attempt to resolve things, based primarily on my posts in this forum.

The CM will also often repeat "we don't comment on internal HP policy" when you ask them a reasonable question they do not want to answer. Ask them to put that in writing via e-mail (the fact that you asked and they refused to answer.) If they refuse to do so, send them an e-mail or letter asking again, and noting that on X previous occasions they have refused to answer.

Rather than try to create repeat customers, HP has taken the short-term view when it comes to personal computers - i.e., cut it to the bone to enhance the next few quarter's earnings. They have set up NUMEROUS roadblocks when it comes to providing acceptable repair and try to intimidate you into going away if it isn't an easy fix (or they make things worse, as in my case). But don't buy it, and don't give up.

 

I agree vertical.

 

I had a couple of experiences with HP Repair Service. I had a HP Pavilion DV8310US and a HP/Compaq NX9420 both of them needed to be replaced due to poor quality service. HP really needs to step up their repair staff.

 

dude, what a mess. glad i stopped looking at hp's, sorry for all your troubles.
Vert, let us know how your case is coming along...

 

Hey all, appreciate support and comments. Please feel free to put DETAILS here of your poor customer support experiences, especially if it involves HP's deception/diversion/intimmidation tactics - you know, the run-around routine. I think if their specific tactics are posted here, customers will be more likely to recognize them and they can reference this forum to their case manager. It will be more difficult for CMs to continue such tactics if they are exposed.

The goal is not to just bash HP, but to get them to change and provide the support they should be providing. Until this happens, I can't recommend buying an HP computer product for personal use, since you will likely need support during the warranty period and they have made it a NIGHTMARE to obtain the support you are legally entitled to. Hopefully things will change soon and they will widely publicize their plan to improve support for personal lines products.