HP Customer Service Horror (HP Pavilion dv9295ea)

http://www.koshyjohn.com/hp - full and ongoing details of my case

As a quick summary of my problem, I am quoting from my letter to Mark Hurd sent on 10th June 2008.

I got a reply stating that the needful will be done but nothing has materialized so far. All calls to customer care, get the same reply: "Your case has been handed over to higher authorities, there is nothing more that we can do."

I know its way beyond the time for me to resort to litigation but I want to be sure I have exhausted all other options before it comes to that.

Any useful advice for me?

 

Thats a well documented case you have. It will really come be useful if you take it to litigation. Its quite shocking to hear such ordeal your in.

Have you contacted India's Consumer affairs? (whatever its called over there)

It seems you have exhausted all your other options and done what you could. I wish you good luck in and hope it goes in your favour along with compensation.

 

Unfortunately, it seems evident to me that if HP was going to do the honorable thing and fix your computer they would have done so by now. If you were in the U.S. I would recomend taking them to Small Claims Court. It is a relatively inexpensive method for the consumer to initiate legal action against HP. I don't know if there is a legal equivalent where you are or for that matter whose legal jurisdiction you are currently under? There are two threads about that topic ongoing now.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=260892

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=249826

I would try to draw as much public attention to your problem as you can. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If a legal avenue is practical and available I would consider it.

Good luck and I hope you get it resolved.

 

I thank you both for the prompt and useful replies. I contacted the National Consumer Forum today (that's what it is called in India). They immediately took down my details and gave me an address and a telephone number for the Hewlett Packard head office. They advised me to detail the personnel at the said number on what the problem was and give them a 10 day deadline to resolve the issue before proceeding to litigation.

You wouldn't believe how responsive the company suddenly became. The person I talked to at HP was extremely polite and put me on a conference call with someone really high up in the service center division in my state. They both noted down my problems. The service division executive gave me his mobile number and told me he would personally be overlooking this and would get back to me by 12 noon tomorrow.

What I found particularly shocking was that according to the records HP has kept at their head office, my laptop's motherboard has been replaced only once and that too on May 7th - the one instance that the service center people actually denied happening (read FRAUD at my website: http://www.koshyjohn.com/hp/fraud.html). I've documentation to prove most of my statements but I've only my observations as backing my claim of a fraud being committed. I'm technically inclined person with a degree in Computer Science and Engineering and I'm struggling with this company - I seriously wonder how an average Joe is being treated.

Now for my point of view - only half my issue has anything to do with the service center. I am not willing to hand my laptop over again since they've done a somewhat shoddy job with reassembly over the months (scratches, screws missing, bushes missing, USB port not working, uneven keys on the keyboard, stuck display locking mechanism). I am apprehensive about what more they will screw up and I don't intend to be left without my primary system any longer than I already have (this is assuming that they fix it properly in a single attempt).

The other half involves actually being stuck with a useless, rapidly depreciating & expensive laptop for 6 months within its warranty period before they even agreed to take it in (and then 3 months of unsatisfactory repairs).

Given that what I've gone through, I've been advised to either seek damages, a full replacement with damages, a full replacement with a model selling at around the cost this one was acquired at OR tell them "see you in court". The reason behind this is that this was one of highest end models (if not the highest - this thing even came with an HD-DVD ROM drive) at the time of purchase (the kind that depreciates very very fast) - and out of it 14 odd months of life, I've only had full use of it for about 5. And remember, I'm writing off losses incurred due to the unavailability of this system.

I am convinced I'm being fair both to myself and to HP given the circumstances. But considering that I am actually involved in this, I would like opinions and advice from people unaffected by this.

Advice on any sort of tricks I should watch out for would be greatly appreciated.

 

It is terrifc to hear that HP has become so apparently cooperative. Your National Consumer Forum in India must have some teeth for their head office to so suddenly change their tune.

Did the Consumer Forum office indicate what type of damages one with a situation like yours is likely to receive if the matter went to court? Will you need to get an attorney and how long and costly is the typical process? What are the risks that a judge might rule against you?

The most expeditious way to go would be to settle out of court. A favorable trial verdict would send a much bigger message to HP. But you would have to be willing and able to afford the time, expense and possible risk that going to court would entail. It would also depend on what is the best and worse case court scenarios possible. The more information you can obtain the better decision you can make.

I would at the very least demand a brand new laptop with a several year warranty that costs at least as much as your initial one. This is assuming of course you still want to continue to utilize HP's products. I wouldn't consider accepting a laptop with the same specs as your initial one. That would return you little. You are entitled to some compensation for the time and hassel that HP's Bad Faith dealings have caused. Getting a new laptop instead of a full refund would be less expensive to HP and would probably be easier to negotiate.

When you make your verbal demand be firm but polite. Explain in detail all that you have endured and that you expect to be compensated fairly by them. If you have evidence of fraud indicate it. Make it clear to them how extensive your compiled documentation is. Elaborate in detail on how their actions have negatively affected your life. Your documentation's detail is impressive and the recounting of your story may move them personally. Make it clear that if you are forced to go to court that you will be able to easily prove your case. If you have determined that a favorable court outcome is likely tell them. The more informed and resolute you come across the more likely you are to receive a better settlement and the less likely they are going to want to continue down a legal road with you. Rightous indignation is good but always be polite.

If you come to an agreement, make sure you get your settlement details in writing, signed by someone in authority. If they want you to return your laptop first, specify in writing the latest when you are to receive your settlement.

Good Luck and please keep us posted!

 

What's with all these HP horror stories? They're freaking me out ><"

 

The consumer forum told me to contact HP then give them 10 days. I was told to get back to the forum at the end of this period with whatever has transpired - good or bad. Legal action will start at the end of this period if I am not satisfied.

I didn't think of asking the NCF then what kind of damages I can apply for and what usually happens - will do that the next time I call. The NCF is a government institution and they are supposed to represent the consumer free of charge. I don't mind paying for legal support though since this is a matter of principle and, like you've mentioned, HP is acting in bad faith. I've go nothing much in particular to do over the next 4-5 months since I just completed my engg a few days ago and so time is not an issue either. And I would even consider going to court a good opportunity to familiarize myself with the legal system.

I am doubly eager to teach HP a lesson since this is not the first time they've screwed with me. I own a HP Compaq nx9010 Business notebook that failed in a lightning storm a month after I got the dv9295ea. I paid to have the motherboard replaced and they put in one from the Presario series. I fought with them and told them this is not the same as the one I had since it was displaying the compaq logo on booting up instead of HP. I didn't take the matter further as I was more than happy with the new machine and didn't use the old one much. Once the new machine failed, I went back to the old one to discover that one of the USB ports had stopped working and the other 2 USB ports were functioning at the old 1.0 specification speed instead of 2.0 - which meant copying files happened at 1 mbps at best. And I later discovered that the VGA port was also not working. But it was too late to do anything about it. I won't make that mistake this time.


Despite my willingness to go to court, like most people, I would prefer an out of court settlement. It will cost HP less too since they'll have to pay for my legal fees, their lawyers, etc. over and above the settlement if we head to court.

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HP FOLLOWUP
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As promised, I was contacted at 12 noon - by the local customer service center though. They asked me to bring the laptop in to diagnose. I asked them what they meant by "diagnosing". They refused to elaborate saying that HP asked them to bring the laptop in, "connect it to diagnostics" and then call the head office. I told them if they just wanted to see that the configuration was indeed wrong, I'd be willing but I am not agreeing to anything beyond that. (I suspect they wanted to just change the motherboard as part of their "diagnosis" to erode my legal standing).

They didn't seem surprised with my refusal and told me they would get back to HP and then call me. They were extraordinarily polite too.

I think HP has a pretty good idea that I'm on solid legal ground after going through my website and is trying different last ditch tactics.

 

I agree letting HP fix the laptop at this point will leave you with a functional year old disfigured laptop and may undermine your legal standing for damages. After your year long nightmare treatment it would be a very cheap way for them to potentially get off the hook.

Stay tough and stick to your guns! Tell them you are fed up and are not willing to waste any more time with them. You don't want any more service on your old laptop. Demand a brand new one with a multi year warranty that costs at least as much as your initial one. They can then have the old one back and do with it as they will.

Again, if you are fed up with HP you could ask for a full refund plus damages instead. You are certainly entiltled, but that will be harder to negotiate and may require going to court. I would also check into the details of the court process and find out what your legal standing is and how long and how much that route would cost you. That knowledge will be invaluable in your negotiations with them.

Good luck and please keep us posted!

 

The service division executive called me and told me that they have acquired a motherboard with the correct specifications and they would "graciously" change the motherboard for me even though my system is now out of warranty. I asked him why HP should sound so benefactorial about it when they were the ones who screwed up in the first place.

He kept trying to push the m/b on me. I kept refusing and told him that I would accept nothing less than a replacement costing the same as the original. He asked me how he could resolve this if I refused to hand the laptop over. I said that it was not my problem and that they could either do the right thing or come to court and have the judge make them do the right thing. I made it absolutely clear that I have utmost confidence that the verdict would be in my favour. It would take a brain-dead lawyer to assume they could actually win this.

I asked him to convey my position to his superiors and he agreed to do so. I made it clear that my issues were with HP and not with him (just in case). He seemed to sympathize with my situation but then if he didn't he wouldn't be doing his job to soothe customers well, would he?

I've updated my sub-site and reorganized things about to take into account legal proceedings: http://www.koshyjohn.com/hp
I've put up details of what I would consider a fair settlement at this page: http://www.koshyjohn.com/hp/7legal.html

Canyon, your comments so far have been extremely helpful in my fight against HP and I would greatly appreciate if you could give my settlement offer a quick look?

To arrive at a laptop that would cost as much as the original would only require me to head over to their dv9700 customize laptop section and spec it out to the most expensive option in each category except software and additional accessories.

HP chose to learn how to treat customers decently the hard way. So be it.

 

I took a look at your site. Your organization and detail is very impressive. Your settlement offer for replacement and extended warranty looks fair to me.

When you talk to the Consumer Union again explain what HP has offered you and that you don't trust them after all you have been through. You don't want to allow them to replace your motherboard because then you would no longer have evidence that they put one in that was below specs for your machine and then lied about it to you. You think it very fair that they replace your machine with a brand new one with comparable high end specs that costs at least as much as yours did. You are also willing to accept an extra 4 year full accidental damage warranty as compensation for your extensive hassle and frustration incurred dealing with HP over the last year plus. See what they say. Ask if they think your offer is reasonable and if HP refuses will the Consumer Union still take it to court and what do they think the likely outcome would be?

Sometimes these government agencies are staffed by individuals that are not that well trained or knowledgeable, at least at the taking of the call level. The person you call may only be there to take consumer phone complaints. Try to determine what the situation is. If this person doesn't come across as experienced, ask politely to speak to someone higher up who has more experience. You want to make sure you are getting good legal information. If you don't feel confident, you may need to find an attorney experienced in these type of cases and pay for a little of their time for a quick evaluation of your case.

IMO, the salient legal point you want to confirm is that HP's offer to only fix the notebook to initial purchase specs doesn't get them off the hook legally with you despite that they took over a year to finally to offer to do so and have committed fraud by lying and replacing your motherboard with one that was below spec for your machine and lied to you about it. I think HP's yearlong bad faith and fraudulent dealings entitle you to much more at this point, but I just want you to talk to a legal expert who can confirm this for sure.

I want to be clear that I am not backtracking on any of my recommendations it is just that I am not an attorney and have no experience in Indian legal matters. It is important that you confirm your legal standing before you make your final decision with them. I think you are on very firm legal ground and HP's offer to only replace the motherboard is woefully inadequate at this juncture in time, given their year long plus history of atrocious service and inept repairs.

It may turn out to be a moot point as HP may come back the next time you talk to them and agree to your replacement offer. But to be on the safe side, please check.

Note: I read your service history a little more carefully and I don't understand why HP refused to service your machine for the first 6 months. If they weren't selling the 9700 series in India why didn't they offer to simply ship it to another country where service was available and fix it there? This fact in itself appears to prove that HP abrogated their contractual warranty obligations.

Good luck and please keep us posted!

 

Thank you for going through the site! I wanted to see if an unbiased person would sympathize with me. If HP is aware of that, they will know that if this ever gets mention in an media, it'll will cost them way more by way of lost sales than if they just agree to the settlement offer (reasonable by itself). And it will hurt them doubly since the high-end segment is where they make their biggest margins (other than, of course, high-end business notebooks - but in my experience business notebooks are way more robust).

HP is now offering me repairs to my satisfaction and an extension to my warranty. And obviously I refused. They asked me if I was hell bent on taking this to court or if I was willing to take an out-of-court settlement. I told them that my demands have been put up online and if they agreed to them, I would be happy to have an out-of-court settlement.

I think it's less about the money now and more about their image since no company would want to be associated with the word 'fraud'. And going to court is certainly one step closer to media attention.

Getting expert legal advice irrespective...
Thank you once again! I'll keep updating this until it's resolved.

 

As a matter of fact, I have extensively analyzed our current dilemma and decided this forum is excellent place to respond. Based on the below comments, I challenge HP to respond.

I hereby challenge HP to defend themselves. I charge HP with NUMEROUS deceptive and fraudulent actions as delineated in these posts and HP has chosen not to respond (disagree HP? Sue me).

Specifically, how many instances of DAMAGE to customer laptops, submitted for repair, has HP experienced in the past 12 months? How many HP/Compaq Laptops under warranty in the past 12 months have been submitted MORE THAN ONCE for warranty repairs? How many of those HP/Compaq in-warranty laptops have been returned for a THIRD time within the warranty period. AND how many laptops have been returned with DAMAGE DONE BY HP REPAIR?

How many times has HP been sued in small claims court (worldwide). How many consumer lawsuits has HP LOST within the last 48 months? THANK YOU FOR YOUR PROMPT RESPONSE. Think any of my comments are inappropriate or irresponsible? Sue me HP. I welcome it.

 

This is the letter I got from them today:

My proposed reply to this e-mail in the next post...

 

Here's my reply to the above e-mail:

 

Great letter, very well written.

 

OK, i should start out by saying that my only relationship is to HP is that I currently have a dv9000t in for repairs (first time). I am sorry to hear that you have gone through this entire affair, it seems unnecessary and to be honest, ridiculous. I imagine that at this point you probably want to draw blood from HP, i know that I would.

With that being said, I don't believe that your demands are realistic. I do believe that you should have a new laptop or its equivalent value out of the deal, minimum, but I think asking for an HP laptop and a 3+ year all inclusive warranty is a joke. To be honest, if they have been that bad, why the hell would you want prolong such an inept warranty, and I believe that you are doing it in order to reduce HP's ability to agree to your demands. HP would obviously not want to agree to that demand seeing as it three more years of you.

I appreciate that you are trying to draw attention to this situation to pressure HP into folding, but looking through your website I honestly believe that your statements of "fraud" are legally questionable (in the US at least). Furthermore, if the court finds against you for those statements, it opens you up to charges of libel. I think that what you need to do is to set a number. Say, $4000 US, and send that off in a letter along the lines of "If you want an out of court settlement, I get $4000, you get my POS laptop, and I never buy from your company again."

I think that you need to be ready to make a fair compromise for BOTH parties and walk away with a new experience under your belt.

Also, I would suggest streamlining your complaint site, it is kind of plain and much too wordy. If you had a single cover page with a brief explanation and the major points, I believe that it would increase traffic and interest in your problem.

I hope that things work out well for you and soon!

 

Hope my dv6700t doesn't need servicing during the warranty period.

 

I had actually written a detailed reply to this but my NBR session timed out and I lost what I had written when I tried to publish it. But here's the gist:

1. I had a reasonable offer - HP didn't accept it and would not even tell me that they wouldn't accept it directly until I approached the consumer forum. Their current best offer is: "yours is a special case for HP and we will replace your motherboard even though the laptop is outside warranty". As if they are doing me some kind of big favour - they are the ones who screwed up many times over.
2. I have more proof of multiple instances of fraud but I'm not putting it online because I don't want to empower HP lawyers with information on how I'm going to hit them in court.
3. A overhaul of the site is too much work at the moment. I agree with what you are saying and I was intending to do it even before you pointed it out but it's simply a question of whether it serves a real purpose for the investment of my time right now.

You advice is very good to enable me to reach an out-of-court settlement. But that's not the path I'm taking any longer - I don't see the need to be reasonable to a party that is very very far from being reasonable.

 

I wanted to comment on a couple of points you made.

I don't agree that offering HP the option to replace his laptop with a new one and asking for a 3 year warranty is unrealistic. To continue utilizing HP's products is his choice. From a financial perspective, it would be cheaper for HP to accept that type of offer than a lump sum payout. If the laptop doesn’t break down, and if HP’s service afterwards is competent and reasonably timely (a big if), he would probably be content. IMO, giving HP several settlement choices is being reasonable.

Putting a motherboard in his computer that was below initial purchase specs and lying about it certainly sounds like fraud to me. However, I do think it would be prudent to consult a legal expert (if he hasn’t already) to confirm that these inept repair actions on HP’s part do meet the Indian legal standards of fraud.

I don't think it is necessary to completely revamp his site. The detail he has employed is very impressive and adds a great deal of credence to his case. I for one, enjoy reading a through presentation.

He may consider adding a single short summary page. It could layout what his laptop problems were, tally his total contacts with HP (both by phone and in person) and what actions were already undertaken, and make clear just how long he was without a fully functioning laptop. With all the detail in his site, it would help to provide a clearer picture of this whole mess, clarify just how much time and energy he has wasted, and make for an easier read for those who are interested in a quick overview only.

 

Canyon, I did write a lot, and can understand how the misunderstanding came about, but i never suggested that he completely revamp his site."

The passage that you are referencing states:

"Also, I would suggest streamlining your complaint site, it is kind of plain and much too wordy. If you had a single cover page with a brief explanation and the major points, I believe that it would increase traffic and interest in your problem."

We both are agreeing that a COVER page, on top of the thorough information provided would be an asset to his website.

You state that:

"I for one, enjoy reading a through presentation."

I do as well. I think that it would be reckless and irresponsible to post claims of fraud without the material being easily accessible to back it up. This is why I applaud Koshy for being as thorough as he has been, while i also can appreciate his not wanting to share everything given that he has decided on pursuing legal action.

I also agree that offering multiple means of settling the case is the responsible thing to do. I just do not see how HPs service with its warranty could improve in such a short amount of time to be adequate.

Lastly, Koshy, i want to wish you luck.

 

You are right about the cover page. I based my comment on Kosy's reply where "overhaul" was mentioned. I think we both misunderstood what you had meant.

I also understand your comment: "I just do not see how HPs service with its warranty could improve in such a short amount of time to be adequate".

It seems HP's service is hit or miss. There are some people who report positive experiences, getting prompt and appropriate repairs of their laptops. Others like Kosy and Vertical2010 have had nightmare experiences.

I don’t think HP makes a bad product they just don't honor their consumer warranties anywhere as consistently as they should. It seems to be a crapshoot. Too many customers appear to fall through the cracks. I don't know if it depends on what representative is contacted at HP or if they just tend to cut loose those consumers who have had a bad repair. It does seem to me, from the number of posts I have read at this forum, that HP does have some type of delay and deny tactics deliberately put in place. Exactly what these policies are and how they are implemented is unclear.

 

Discussed the case with a highly reputed lawyer. He said that my demands are well within limits and as such there are no real limits if you can prove you deserve what you are asking for. As far as consumer courts here are concerned, they were set up to protect the rights of the consumer and tend lean towards the side of the consumer.

I went through a list of cases on which judgements were passed by the 'National Consumer Disputes Redressal Commission' in India and I've not come across a single one concerning HP. So either they'll settle out of court or I'll set a precedent for other customers to learn from. Both outcomes are acceptable to me.

I will be abroad for two weeks and so I'll be registering a case only on the day I return. For now, I will not reply to the last e-mail sent by HP - if they let down their guard thinking I've given up, it won't really hurt me.

Here's the website for the National Consumer Disputes Redressal Commission: http://www.ncdrc.nic.in/

 

Did they respond to the e-mail reply that you posted here on July 1st?

I bet HP will make you a much better offer after you have filed and they have received notification of your lawsuit.

 

I had my court appearance, HP never turned up and the court proceeded to examining the evidence.

I have employed a lawyer but I face a particular problem since I purchased the laptop abroad. I need to come up with some document that proves that HP India has legal responsibility for the sales of HP as a global entity.

The limited warranty proves that they are obligated to repair it. But there is no proof of them having to replace it if they screw up (even though that is somewhat expected).

Anyone reading this who has any idea of any document on the web that can be used to establish the relationship between HP the global company and HP India (the local entity), PLEASE point it out. I really really need this.

 

only read the first page of this thread.

very nice website man. and sorry that this happened to you!!
im sending my laptop in for mobo replacement and now im a bit scared....

 

Wow. What a story - now I'm hoping that my laptop will never ever die...ever

 

PM Shyster1...he might be able to help you here.

 

I hope for you you will win this case!!!

Good luck

 

It seems to me that the matter of HP-India's responsibility for breaking your computer is a little more mundane than having to prove the relationship between HP-Global and HP-India. If I recall, India has, generally, speaking, a common law underpinning to its legal system, so some very small analogies between US common law and supposed India law can be carefully drawn. In this case, as a general matter, if someone undertakes to perform some service or action for another, for compensation, that first person - the actor - is generally responsible for the consequences of his/her own negligence, and must make the second person whole, and that without regard to matters of warranty and whatnot. That, to me, seems to be the proper avenue of approach.

In other words, HP-India undertook, as a commercial matter, to provide certain services to you - this was clearly not a case of affection or making a gift - and, in the course of rendering those services, damaged your property, the property of which they had the basic duty of care while it was in their hands (I can't recall offhand what the general duty of care for a bailee in these circumstances is, but that is most likely the duty that would apply, and I cannot believe that it would exculpate HP-India for negligence or willful wrongdoing).

That should be the appropriate rule of law, irrespective of whether or not HP-India has any duties or obligations respecting sales made by other _HP subsidiaries or divisions.

 

Thank you for the analysis - unfortunately I never saw it back then. I did however find a reference in the warranty booklet that I could use to prove the relationship between HP and HP India. The judge did ask me to show the relationship - just like my lawyer had predicted. Thank goodness for that.

WELL.. the reason I'm posting now is that... I WON!!! HP now owes me a new laptop or INR 96,000 ($2,400) in cash in return for the laptop. They have about a month to comply with the order.

I have completely redesigned the subsite at koshyjohn.com/hp to include documents that I had submitted at the court (one of the most important documents - the proof affidavit was however drafted by my lawyer and I don't have a soft copy). It should be appear to be compact and too the point. A lot of information had to be removed to make it concise.

I hope my case helps someone somewhere. And of course, a big THANK YOU to everyone who took interest in this - especially Canyon and Shyster1.

 

I read all of this and i'm glad everything worked out for you.
Thank you for standing up and making them do what is right!

 

Congratulations for the victory. Power to the people!

How much did you spend on legal aid? Also did you get any sort of compensation?

 

I'm delighted to be able to finally announce that I got my money back today in exchange for the dv9295ea. It amounted to 18% more than the original price of the laptop (not in terms of the U.S. dollar though because of fluctuations in the exchange rate since the purchase and the return; but then I didn't pay for it in USD).

Thank you very much for all the help rendered. I spent a little less than $200 on legal fees to my lawyer (must be cheap by U.S. standards).

I am happy to note that my page is the first link on the second page of results for 'hp customer care' on Google. If there is anybody from India reading this, I hope this is useful because I think this is the first time somebody has followed through and won a case against HP in India at the consumer level.

The link again: http://koshyjohn.com/hp