HP Envy 17 SB Throttling test

Everyone,
I did this exact same test months ago on my Envy 17 3D (pre SB), and it throttles the CPU down to 800MHz each core, it would bump up to 1Ghz for a second once every 10 seconds or so. As soon as I stop Furmark, it would go for broke again and hit max turbo boost speed. I will run the test again with updated software either tonight or tomorrow night and post results.

 

Great! Thank you Wyldfyst for chiming in. So this could very well mean its not just a SB issue then....!? Hmmmm.... Hope more first gen Envy 17/3D people respond...this could be good.

KJ

 

I just thought of another reason for the throttling...

POWER

The CPU is rated at 45W+ and the GPU is probably rated at 45W+ as well. Doesn't the Envy only have a 120W power supply? The Alienware M17xR3 has a 240W power supply. I don't know if 120W is enough to power both CPU and GPU at full power. Maybe someone should try a 240W power supply to see if the throttling occurs...

 

Bobmitch came with that idea yesterday! I wonder if this is a possiblity...wish I had the 240W PSU.

KJ

 

Hmm I should have a universal PSU somewhere that allows for higher wattage I could try testing. Ill post back if I find it.

I dont think the PSU is an issue. However it could be due to Intel's Turbo Boost which allows pushing past power consumption temporarily.

 

Okay I tried with a 130w HP PSU, unfortunately I can't find the 240w+ PSU from Dell. Throttling occurs.

As per more information:
My diagnostics point towards:
Motherboard. It's unlikely but possible the Processor could be bad. The reason is:
1. CPU does not seem to throttle in everyone's computer while running by it self.
2. ATI Gpu seems to cause immediately throttles in speed.
3. Intel HD graphics does not cause the CPU to throttle below specs, however does seem to slightly lower the frequencies because of TDP. This proves the processor is not being saturated in by the GPU in the NB.
4. The ATI GPU causes throttling for the CPU, for what reason it is unknown. However we know the GPU's circuit board is part of the motherboard, and they are "integrated". This means the only likely culprit is the motherboard.

Voltage readings
Additional testing. I was able to pull some voltage readings and it appears the DC jack/PSU and CPU are working fine.
Thermal:
Using a temperature probe+ temperature heat gun I was able to deduce that the throttling was not related to heat, whether motherboard NB or CPU, or GPU. The throttling occurs at any temperature, this was further support by hotboxing of the laptop by blocking all intakes. Unfortunately temperatures did not reach critical due to the already throttling processor.

More tests using other systems (non SB) concluded even with dedicated GPU's that throttling did not occur of any kind. Cross referencing them with the HP's Envy's results it seems this is likely a issue affecting Envy's and more then likely not other SB systems.

Diagnosis
My verdict is the motherboard whether due to bad electrical efficiency, or bad electrical batch is causing the throttling. I suspect it has to do with the power usage. Now the only way I can test really test it 100% would mean frying my laptop (I think I can force a load using the current PSU and a DC jack board from a Dell), which I am not willing to do.

Alternatives and my contact
It is possible for a BIOS to be inducing the throttling due to power consumption to prevent failure.

However my contact, from HP Research Team, had informed me that they had noticed a few systems were indeed suffering from the same issue as my two previous Envy's with major throttling/unresponsive system. They had 2 leads, motherboard or processor, however they were still testing to see if it was a bad batch or what. However it was clear they were determined it was either a bad batch of motherboards or processors meaning it was related to hardware.

So now I wait. I have not been able to get in touch with my contact they don't seem to be answering it's likely they have seen my posts here. Or they may be very very busy, after all they are NOT there to provide customer service they are there to provide HP with results in testing of product. (they are currently also testing the Envy 14 Sandy Bridge- as well as USB 3.0 firmware for the Envy 14 SB)

 

Although some of you may actually have throttling issues, I think my machine along with many others here, does not. Despite CPU-Z report of a 798mhz core speed when performing the aforementioned test, a different cpu monitoring program gives me dramatically different results. I suggest all of you performing these tests to run CPU-Z along side another CPU monitoring program such as All CPU Meter. And report back with your results.

 

Testing could also be done along side Intel Turbo Boost Monitor 2.0, this is straight from intel. It will give you the same results as CPU-Z.

 

Crimsoned...

I get the throttling, but my system is still fully functional...I have never experienced the lockup or non responsiveness that you talk about. I wouldn't worry about the posts here...I think that the computer industry is just way behind right now and trying to catch up. The tech who installed my new keyboard this morning said that things are still hectic and have been since the Japanese disaster. Guess they have bigger fish to fry than us...

 

Not to mention this throttling problem is not just from HP since my Asus G73SW does this as well.

Hopefully we can get some more G73 owners to test, but I'm going to predict they will all have it too.

I dont have any throttling outside of games, so I'm still a little cautious about making a super big deal about it, but I still would like to see this addressed officially.

 

Hey.....does the throttling occur if Intel's Turbo Boost is turned off?

 

During stress testing Intel Turbo Boost Monitor is useless, there is not turbo boosting when the cpu is at TDP. Unless you like staring at a blank monitor.

 

? You do realize it uses a bar "graph" to indicate frequency processor state?
Frequency from 700mhz-2.3 ghz for the i7-2820qm or 700-2.0 ghz i7-2630QM are indicated by the darker blue park of the bar. Turbo boost frequencies past stock max speed, are indicated usually by a written number and additionally a light blue bar on top of the darker blue bar.

It in itself is a way to measure frequency. Please check how it works.

 

My understanding is the darker blue part of the bar only shows up when there is turbo boost thus also showing the lighter blue on top of the darker blue? Never does it just show a dark blue bar only bouncing around.

 

Processors — Intel® Turbo Boost Technology Monitor Overview

 

There we go for reference for anyone wondering if Intel Turbo Monitor actually measures base frequencies.

 

No doubt it measures base frequencies but "Frequency text displayed only for Turbo range ( > base frequency)." Thus as I said before, useless during stress testing because you wont be turbo boosting at TDP, therefore, showing no text frequency or bouncing bar. Just a tiny barely visible dark blue bar sitting at the very bottom.

 

There are times when the dark blue bar does bounce up, so I stand correct. But without a frequency text its still useless during stress testing.

 

I should also add, I can have intel turbo boost monitor bouncing a dark blue bar back and forth, but CPU-Z showing a steady core speed. Don't know how much to trust CPU-Z.

 

I think you need to see what we are measuring, we are measuring the decrease of frequency base to lower frequencies then it should be in during use.
During 100% usage IT SHOULD NOT be in "energy saver" which is also known as 700 mhz.

It should steadily be at max base frequency at the very minimum.
This is why using CPU-Z and Intel Boost Monitor 2.0 can be used to cross reference Cpu-Z to make sure CPu-Z really is reporting the right frequencies, which it is. All the programs I have listed in the OP have been cross referenced with other programs to ensure accuracy, or at least as accurate of a measurement we can get.

 

Crimsoned, the testing you have suggested and your contacts at HP are 2 very good first steps to take. Now that the ball is rolling down the hill.... We have to ask ourselves what will HP do if anything. Will HP admit a fault, and correct it? Will they recall all these laptops since we cannot install the motherboards ourselves. If this happens how badly with HP be hurt money wise? That is why I'm thinking they may never do it like Intel did the recal of the SB chip, but that was early on, and no doubt Intel lost some $$$.

I do hope your contacts are just briefly away and will come back to you. Worst case scenario, HP execs. told these guys hush up now, because this may open the door to a lawsuit if HP refuses to admit fault. I do hope this is not the case.

Personally, I intend to use my Envy to the fullest (possible) and if and when HP calls in those affected Envys, then I will send mine in, hopefully for replacement rather than a fix/repair. LOL, I thought maybe when all is said and done the Ivy Bridge will be out, HA!

KJ

 

Thank you for taking the time to clarify.

 

I'm hoping for a recall so I can get an Alienware instead. I don't think I'll be touching a HP computer ever again after this Envy circus.

 

Ny1 here with the core i5 cpu???Does this also have the throttling?

 

Hey guys......
does this throttling show its effects in real world gaming???
Maybe when playing Crysis II
Or when using photoshop?

Does this comes up only when gpu is maxed out as in furmark or even if it is in light use?

Does this comes up if u max out the cpu with prime95 and then open a full-HD video???

As we are now sure that there is throttling while benchmarking.....i feel our next step in this test should be real life situation throttling..

 

Usually only in heavy CPU and GPU applications like games. Yes it actually does show it's effects even on my current Envy 17 3D SB Replacement the throttling is there however it does not cause unresponsiveness like the previous 2 Envy 17 SB laptops I've had. It shows in drops in FPS.
It seems the throttling's effects does vary from laptop to laptop, some have it worse then others.
Very few Envy 17's seem to have massive throttling which pretty much makes the computer unusable, I know slotti had this issue as well as I, however he claims to have fixed it by reinstalling Windows however my tests concluded that's not the reason for the throttling (did a recovery, minimal recovery, and a fresh windows 7 professional installation using retail discs- none of the installations got rid of the throttling- the best I could do was do a small power plan change to make it a little more tolerable however was still leaving the computer largely unusable).

@ Killa Joe

It is still unclear whether HP will even admit fault, after all Case Managers don't even know about this issue yet HP's Research Team has acknowledged it in a small scale. It's a possibility they are waiting for the Research department to introduce results to see if it's going to even be an issue worth investing into or if it's just a rare occassion of a bad batch that requires small repairs.

Who knows to be quiet honest. Will they retreat/ignore the situation as Dell did by using very bad support back before 2008~ and suffer the massive negative PR campaign as Dell did?
Or will they be proactive and reach out to customers and provide a fix?

Only time will tell. The interesting thing here however is HP has such a different position to many other manufacturers in terms of HP's size and revenue compared to other manufacturers.
HP has the ability as basically the largest consumer computer manufacturer to provide very satisfiable solution or make it hell for people to get a resolution while possibly getting away with it.

 

Thank you very much for your reply Crimsoned!

I believe that by the end of the year people will feel the throttling issue when demanding games such as BF3 come out.

I have tried Natural Selection 2 which causes heavy lag already.

Mafia 2 with PhysX enabled (which is handled by the CPU) should not cause the game to lag as it currently does.

I have managed to run the same games that bring the Envy 17 to stutter on a friends Sager with a 2720QM and a Radeon 6970M. I have found no issues with the CPU down throttling but found that the 2720QM isn't reaching its max speed of 3,2 GHZ.

It is quite a shame to see such a nice laptop plagued with such issues but the only safe thing to do would be to buy an extended warranty.

Nvidia overheating problems from a couple of years ago look miniature in comparison to issues such as these. (At least you could somehow control them)

 

Crimsoned, appreciate the response...and thanks for "looking out" for all of us involved.

KJ

 

10+ minutes
Temps 68C-82C
20X multiplier
Core speed 1900-2000mhz
min/avg/max=10/12/18fps

ran test as specified on 6850

Does that mean im fine on the throttling?

 

Guess your are the first for whom it does not throttle.
I ran the test as well, and as expected, once FurMark starts, the CPU goes down to 798 MHz. CPU temps around 70C, GPU temp steady around 77C.
Before I started FurMark, the CPU occasionally dropped to 798, but it seemed to be related to temperature (hitting 90C).
FPS on Funmark: Min 20, max 36, average 26

This is after 10 min. Still very responsive.

 

Ok, it is official. Prime 95 does not yield the right result.
So after I have been getting same results as everybody else. I decided 15 min into the test. to load up my 3D CAD and start a rendering. GPU went to 100% when I was trying to set up the view in 3D .
So everything set. stoped prime95. FurMark is still running. Hit the render button. CPU is not at 100% only an average of 50%, BUT I am at 2594 MHz, and only have occational drops to 798.
Temsp are getting crazy (I am about 30 minutes into it).
GPU hit 82C and CPU in between 80 and 90 (once it hits 90 on all cores, I get the downfall to 798.
BTW, it is doing all of this while I am typing this.
What does this proof nothing, but that benchmarking is not the way to figure out if there is a problem or not. Remeber, I get the exact same results just with Prime 95 and Fur as everybody else and as expected by now.
But my rendering engine is able to push the cpu up to 2,8GHz.

Edit: I am 35 minutes into it, will stop Fur now. Still all the same as described above.
Oh yes, FPS dropped to 14 when I was doing my camera set up in my 3D CAD. Max is at 40 now and average is still 26.

 

Slotti

Actually Furmark and Prime95 are not benchmarking tools. They are tools designed to test both the GPU and CPU to their real maximum speeds (well prime95 was created for a different task, however it fits CPU stress testing to a "t").

It is a bit complicated in a technical way, it's best to explain that processors basically run through formulas to get a result. Some formulas require more work then others.
This is the same reason why running say for example a video rendering, and prime95 will yield very different temperatures. Prime95 simply is having the processor work considerably harder than video rendering.

I try to think things through when I do diagnostics, to ensure whatever method of testing I use is the most accurate without involving the use of 3 letter agency budgets, lol.
Edit: Oh yes another thing, if you guys wish to do these kinds of real world tests that's fine. I understand some of you may not be affected by the throttling.

My diagnostics are done, and it seems to point to a motherboard issue.

 

You think we should contact HP and make some demands? This ain't right, it's a broken product. Think it's covered by warranty?

 

Unlikely since the throttling does not cause the system to become unstable or unusable they could claim throttling due to safety reasons.

 

Well, when you pay for a premium 2.3Ghz CPU which stays at 798Mhz 80% of the time, I think we have a good reason to complain.

 

The other thing that is going to hurt that is that it is NOT HP specific. Asus and Dell get the throttling as well....which will go far in substantiating what Crimsoned just said. Different PC manufacturers, different motherboards (Intel is used in HP and Dell), and Asus makes their own...yet the issue is across brands.

 

Well no matter who's fault it is, this is not acceptable. Considering shooting HP a mail to hear what they have to say.

 

Most manufacturers, with the exception of Asus will use motherboards made by probably the same manufacturer like Foxconn, or Asus.

However even then, most motherboard manufacturers have to source their components from likely the same vendors, Foxconn or Asus.

It's a possibility due to the Japan disasters that some batches of components could have come faulty.

@Apoxxx

I agree it's unacceptable. I want to wait until I get some information from my contact before I push it any further. For now I am going to have to go back to "shush" mode and keep my suggestions or comments about what people wish to do on hold until I get a hold of my contact.

I am currently selling my Envy, and I expect it to be sold within the next few days on Ebulbay. The Dell m6600 has gone on sale, $500~ off so it's prompting me to sell the Envy.
Don't worry I will continue to feed you guys whatever information I can get related to the Envy.

 

Yeah I was just looking at the Dell M6600 myself, and was really close to ordering, but I think I'll wait for the IPS RGBLED panel. People on the Dell board told me the instant savings of $500 off has always been there on that particular model. Looks like a perfect laptop though, basically an alienware without the spaceship look. Even has the 2GB 6970M equivalent Firepro, fingerprint reader, backlit keyboard etc.

Just hoping I can fetch a reasonable amount for my Envy on ebay to someone who doesn't mind the throttling as much as me.

 

My gut tells me this is a design issue given the wattage needed to power a CPU and GPU fully has got to be way more than 120W. The Alienware laptops include 240W power supplies and there must be a reason. For the M18x they even increased it to 330W.

There is no throttling on my M17xR3 but if I used the 120w power supply from the HP Envy it won't run at full speed at all.

Most games that use the GPU don't fully tax the CPU so HP probably assumed since this isn't a gaming laptop that the could get away with this design consideration. Sorry but I really don't think this issue can be resolved.

The Envy is a great looking laptop with great battery life. If you were out to buy the fastest laptop you probably would have considered an Alienware or other gaming laptop so rather than stressing over it, you could just enjoy a great looking laptop.

 

Well if that is the case, it's such an apparent design flaw that the engineers who designed it should be aware of it, and if so, then HP has deliberately deceived it's customers, which is the worst thing a company can ever do.

 

I don't think they consider it a flaw... I'll bet the MacBook Pro has the same issue...

Does any one have a latest gen MacBook to try?

 

How can anyone not consider it a flaw. They should advertise their CPU's as 800Mhz quad cores then if they didn't.

 

Does throttling occur while playing demanding games i.e. Crysis 2, or is it only while running stress programs?

 

You do realize that people with Dell's and Asus have also found throttling on their machines?

 

Point taken. And you are probably correct. I guess it was more a test for myself to make me feel a bit better for purchasing a notebook that does not keep up to it's promised performance
I do want to try a different rendere later today though. It's a tiny program compared to any 3D CAD, but the last time I ran it (obviously without any stress on the GPU) it pushed the CPU to 100% on all cores and to 2.6 - 2.7 GHz constantly (which seems to be more of a pusch than even Prime 95 does). It actually pushed my temps even higher than prime.
In any case, we all appreciate your work on this Crimsoned, and though you are deploying the Envy to an evil society (sorry could not resist), we all hope you stay with us and keep us posted on what is going on inside HP.

 

In reading Intel's documentation on the CPU ( http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/datasheet/324692.pdf ) and the thermal design of a system, it mentions that PROCHOT# being triggered:

5.4.1.3.3 Thermal Solution Design and PROCHOT# Behavior
With a properly designed and characterized thermal solution, it is anticipated that PROCHOT# will only be asserted for very short periods of time when running the most power intensive applications. The processor performance impact due to these brief periods of TCC activation is expected to be so minor that it would be immeasurable. However, an under-designed thermal solution that is not able to prevent excessive assertion of PROCHOT# in the anticipated ambient environment may:

•Cause a noticeable performance loss.
•Result in prolonged operation at or above the specified maximum junction temperature and affect the long-term reliability of the processor.
•May be incapable of cooling the processor even when the TCC is active continuously (in extreme situations).


I found that RealTemp's logging will show when PROCHOT# is triggered. I can't test this since my system doesn't throttle. But this may be a good way to determine if the throttling is occuring because of thermal issues vs power limitation issues.

You can get RealTemp here:

Real Temp - CPU temperature monitoring

 

It's definitely not thermal issues, as the CPU throttles whenever you put load on the GPU, regardless of temps. I've had throttling at 55c.

 

Does any one with an envy that is throttling have access to any power wattage detection devices? This can be an inline wattage meter or a multimeter/clampmeter with a clamp to measure AC Amps. Would be interesting to find how much power the 120W power brick draws during throttling as if it hits near 120W the voltage on the output will drop because of the load and the laptop motherboard will auto throttle.

 

Run the test for 10 min.
My Envy 17 3D havs the same behavior ,
CPU drops to 798 MHz, then go to 1898 MHz
Temperatures:
CPU : hit 80 C
GPU : hit 82 C

Still all the same as described above.