Painfully Obvious DV6/7t Switchable Graphics for Dummies

After reading a lot of posts over the past few weeks my peanuts sized brain is on overload. I thought it might be nice to start a thread that is simply...well....simple! This is a thread for people with both knowledge and patience to come and help those of us that just received our new HPs and don't understand the graphics switching issue and it's ramifications. Furthermore, it would be nice to know what is possible manually. I know a lot of information is here in this forum in other threads but a lot of the discussion is about clean installs, going to both AMD and HPs sites for various drivers and it seems like no real success has been achieved.

Can someone please answer the following questions?...

1. Is there any way to make switchable graphics work now? (my impression is no)

2. Will this issue ever be fixed?

3. Can the graphics be manually switched and how? (if so I would just leave the 6770m running all the time)



Thanks!

 

No, thats what everyone is looking for (61XX models)

If AMD/HP ever fix their drivers

See #1

 

1. SG works for some apps, but not others (which explains why some folks are happy and others have sent theirs back for a refund)

2. sure hope so, but I'm not a gambler and don't know the timeline for a fix, so I sent mine back already.

3. If manual switching was possible on the new DV6/7s, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

While I'm not an expert by any means, I've had the dv6tqe for awhile now and have had experience using the dynamic switching.

1. Switchable graphics DO work, but just on an application by application basis (i.e. dynamic switching). Unfortunately, the 6770m will not turn on for openGL based programs such as Adobe Photoshop. Personally, I haven't had many issues with the dynamic switching as I've been able to play games at 1080p and high settings with anti-aliasing on, and I seem to get pretty decent FPS.

2. I think the most likely fix would be an update that re-instates manual switching and allows users to choose between manual and dynamic switching. Not sure if this is possible though.

3. No, no one has figured out how to do this yet.

 

Ah yes...refreshingly simple! LOL

Dang...too bad on the manual switch. So basically the upgrade to a nicer card and all the benefits that might come with it are useless? My next post might be "The Painfully Obvious do I return my laptop because the dedicated graphics card doesn't work" thread.

I bought this laptop (DV6tqe) for my wife. (going to college) She will uses Adobe CS5 and would benefit from the upgrade. I agree with what I've seen others say. This is deceptive on HPs part.

Well, this simple thread might not really need go any further. I'm going to give it a few more days and decide what to do..what options there are from other companies or see if HP miraculously makes a fix available. Thanks!!!

 

You guys posted a little faster than I could get my last reply out. Just want to thank each of you for your response....even though it would have been nice to get better news. It's good to have a bottom line on where we are at with regards to this issue.

 

So let me get this straight. If I choose the option for "switchable graphics" and then set a certain program to "high performance" or whatever it is, that will not always force the system to use the GPU?

 

Correct. Certain programs (most notably those using OpenGL) will currently run on the integrated GPU no matter what the user does.

 

Ok, call me a dummy. I was just going to order a dv7t quad, and found this forum when looking for pictures of steel vs. umber . Anyhoo, I'm not quite up to speed on "switchable graphics". My main usage of this system would be to run Adobe CS5 products - mainly Photoshop, AfterEffects and some Premiere. Also using Alias' Maya. From what I am gathering, this is an issue?

Right now I'm using a 3 yo dv9000, so am itching to upgrade.

Thanks for any pointers.

 

Okay, after reporting the situation to my wife and discussing this issue a bit a few more questions came up:

1. What is the benefit of having a dedicated graphics card in these systems? Is it just how seamlessly games will play or are the colors more brilliant, etc etc?

2. With regard to CS5 and OpenGL....what difference would be seen using the Integrated graphics versus the 6770m? Is rendering faster with the dedicated gpu when working in Photoshop...or again...are the graphics more crisp, beautiful or colorful?

3. What advantages are there of having a card that uses OpenGL? (okay...I know it's lazy not to look this one up....but if you're feeling generous it would be easier to have it answered here)

My wife asked these questions...wondering if we should just keep the laptop....and I couldn't answer. TIA

 

1. It's mainly just for more Frames Per Second (FPS) and the ability to run higher settings and resolutions in games. Obviously, if the Intel HD3000 can't keep up, you're forced to run at lower resolution with less detailed settings, and it won't look as good. Otherwise, the Intel HD3000 looks every bit as good, as long as it has sufficient output for the game or application being run.

2. You will see little to no benefit in Photoshop, as it's much more ram and cpu intensive. The i7 Sandy Bridge and Intel HD3000 is more than enough for anything you would need to do in Photoshop. For Premier, you may get some notable speed advantages in encoding large video files, but the cpu and integrated gpu are also more than sufficient for regular use. You will see no difference in color, resolution, or anything else. The reason OpenGL support was initially added at the tail end of CS3 was to offset less powerful cpus at the time. The advent of multicore cpus has largely negated any advantage of offloading to the gpu for anything but real-time 3d rendering.

3. The Intel HD3000 gpu does support OpenGl, quite well I may add. It's just not as fast as the 6770m, so if you're looking to play a graphics intensive game that relies on OpenGL, you'd be in the same scenario as the first point above (ie. lower resolution and settings). The funny thing is that very few graphics intensive OpenGL games have been released in the last 4-5 years that did not also have Direct X support, which runs perfectly even with dynamic switching!

 

Thanks!

What about Alias' Maya where the requirements say it needs OpenGL:
Autodesk - Autodesk Maya - System Requirements

I'm running 7.0 from a few years back, but it probably has the same deal.

Whoops. I found this in an HP review:
"Don't buy this laptop if you use editing, drafting, or design software. Myself and others have been in touch with HP about this issue for weeks, and have gotten not so much as an acknowledgment of the problem.
This laptop is one of the first to have AMD's "dynamic graphics switching" which kills OpenGL, and thus, HP's support for professionals. There is no way to get OpenGL applications to work with the Radeon GPU.
Software that has been crippled on these laptops includes the following:
Adobe Creative Suite
Autodesk AutoCAD
Autodesk Maya
AVID Media Composer
And any other software that runs on OpenGL Although the specs on this computer look nice, they cannot be properly utilized in practice."
http://reviews.shopping.hp.com/8843...-customizable-notebook-pc-reviews/reviews.htm

Does the ENVY series have the same issues?

 

that review was accurate. proceed with a purchase of a DV6 at your own risk. seriously. I've wasted countless hours dealing with HP's tech support, as I was one of the first to be bitten by this issue. I had to send mine back, as HP has no fix in sight.

 

This is nothing short of an AWESOME reply! Very informative! From this I've decided two things. I didn't get what I paid for....but what I have is pretty good and probably functional enough for now. If someone can come up with a fix to force a manual switch to the 6770m in the future I will be happy. Again...thank you so much for the excellent explanations!

 

Well, crap.

 

Yeah, I don't know if even the newest iteration of Maya has moved over to Direct X. AutoCad has, but Maya may not have. I would definitely be more leery if you're primarily using the notebook for 3d modeling professionally or for school. The software will likely run OK on the integrated GPU for a hobbyist, but I would probably go with an Nvidia solution at the moment, if that was your main intent. All AMD mobile gpus that utilize dynamic switching will also likely be effected. The Envy is already drawing similar complaints as well. The GTX460m or newly released GTX560m would work extremely well for more intensive OpenGL apps, but be prepared to tradeoff battery life, as anything above the GT555m in Nvidia's lineup does not handle switching graphics, and it will take it's toll!

 

so does this mean that the Radeon HD 6770M never gets used even when gaming?

 

No, almost all DirectX games will use it. It's only OpenGL games and a few bizarre cases like Flight Simulator X that have a problem.

 

Dark Rider is generally a smart fellow, but I must say that he is way off the mark in his estimates of how well the Intel chip will perform in Adobe CS. He is right when he says that it will not run Maya or other 3D modeling software well, but the fact of the matter is that Premier and After Effects are just as demanding as Maya. To answer your questions:

1. The colors on the display are determined by what screen you have. A graphics card is vital for a good frame rate in games, yes, but it is also just as important for graphics rendering.

2. In the dv6t/dv7t, OpenGL is only supported on the Intel GPU. As all Adobe products (among others) run in OpenGL, this means that you will not be able to utilize the power of the 6770m in these applications. While Photoshop is not nearly as graphics intensive as Premier, it will still help quite a bit to run Photoshop on a dedicated graphics card.

3. Most professional and creative software (not just Adobe) uses OpenGL. Your graphics card needs to support OpenGL to run these products. As only the Intel HD 3000 supports OpenGL in the dv6t/dv7t, these programs will run at a crippling pace. Although you might be able to get by in Photoshop with a performance hit, the Intel graphics are frankly unusable in Premier or After Effects.

Dark Rider, I realize that you are trying to stop people from returning an otherwise great, affordable laptop over what is really a niche issue. It is true that OpenGL is a nonissue for most gamers and light users. However, please do not downplay the importance of this issue for people who need to use graphics/video software. I really do love the dv7t, and it would be perfect otherwise. But I am still returning mine because of this one issue, which ruins the entire package for people like me.

 

Thank you for detailing that further. I'm not a heavy Maya user - just occasionally. But I am heavy in Photoshop and AE, and was looking to speed up my current dv9000 workflow.

 

Kahn20, I don't think we're that far from agreeing with each other, but I do think the majority of users that I've seen bickering will be minimally impacted. I won't downplay the importance for those who do commercial ( video editing or 3d modeling/graphics (or are going to school for these disciplines), because I agree that it could be a real problem for those folks. However,I will absolutlly stick to my guns when it comes to Photoshop. I have been a regular user of Photoshop for more than 10 years, and have access to more than one Quadro 4000 based workstation. The OpenGL rendering engine for 2D based Photoshop makes VERY little difference in processing time, regardless of how complex the image is. When OpenGL rendering first became available after the release of CS3, it was noticeable, but with consumer grade multicore processors these days, I doubt I could even measure the difference without a benchmark, it's that close. For Premier encoding and other OpenGL based applications for video and 3d modeling, I will go on the record as agreeing that it will absolutly make a difference.

 

Some awesome discussion here. I've been preoccupied with doing recovery disks etc and have the MSI in progress right now. You guys are pretty much spelling out my situation. My wife is in the process of going to school for technical illustration. This should happen in the next few years. She is currently taking her second Digital Imaging course..primarily working with Photoshop. This fall she will be working with Illustrator....and in the Spring and moving forward over the next four years she will be using ZBrush, Maya etc. We plan on getting a workstation for her towards the end of this year....going to have it built with a Quadro 4000....and hopefully use either AMD Bulldozer or the new LGA2011 platform with a 6 core Sandy Bridge for that build. She will have the workstation....and computers at school once she gets accepted into the main program. We don't envision this laptop to be much more than a typical student laptop with internet access....but I did go for the extra processing power, upgraded gpu and 1080p screen with her graphics focus in mind. I figured she could at least view her creations and do some things on this laptop. And...our current desktop is 8 years old...and works for her schooling needs but struggles. I had hoped the laptop would bridge the gap. If someone could guaranty that a fix to allow for manual switching to the 6770m and use of OpenGL with the same card...even a few months down the road....I would be inclined to stay with this machine. If on the other hand there is no guaranty...and even a likelihood that the DV6tqe will never function properly in this fashion....then I will consider heavily the idea of sending it back and looking for manufacturers that offer the Nvidia cards...such as the 560x mentioned. It's hard to know how much to be upset at this with regard to the actual ramifications. On principle it stinks. I shouldn't have to worry...the faster card should be an option that we can select and should function to our needs. I'm glad I have the 21 day window...but it will be sad to send it back. In the mean time....maybe a fix will come along. Thanks for all of the information guys.

 

I have tried to follow all of this "switchable-graphics" debate/discussion and I am glad to see that someone created this topic with us "dummies" in mind. So if you would please bear with me in my question and just know that my experience is mainly of that of someone who merely "knows just enough to be dangerous". I am not a professional or professionally inclined by any means. Just a hobbiest.

I mostly just dabble with Photoshop CS5 in things as simple theme-designing/ GUI-designing for Windows XP/Vista and 7. I have been using my new dv6tqe-6000 for that purpose since I purchased it. I have my notebook set on the default plan of using the High-Performance graphics while I am plugged in and the Power-Saving when I am not. While plugged in, I have not since seen or noticed the "flickering" of my screen as you would think would happen when the system switches over from one graphics option to the other. Being that I am plugged in and using PS CS5, am I really using my Radeon 6770M or am I using the integrated Intel GPU in reality?

I just want to make certain that this issue of OpenGL support pertains to me or just users with dynamic-switching on the dv6tqe-6100 models. Thanks!

 

Your 6000 should be fine. I had one. Graphics switching works by the user selecting which card they want. the new models use dynamic switching and that's where the problems come in. Yours SHOULD be fine.

 

Just because you've got the 6770m enabled in AC power mode, doesn't mean that it's taking advantage of the OpenGL rendering in Photoshop. It could still be just using the CPU to handle the processing and sending the outputs to the GPU versus having the GPU do both.

To make sure you're taking advantage of the OpenGL rendering in Photoshop CS5, do the following:

Do one of the following:

Choose Edit > Preferences > Performance.

In the GPU Settings section, select Enable OpenGL Drawing.

Click OK. The preference affects subsequently opened images. No restart is necessary.

 

Ah, then you may be right. For several years now I have been stuck running CS3 on my old Core Duo desktop. I really can't say how the latest hardware performs on, say, CS5 in comparison.

 

Hey, first of all, great post--it really helped outline the main issues for me. That said, I do have a quick question. How can we tell definitively if the card will switch. A user on here tried all the bells and whistles and still completely could not access the AMD card. I thought FSX would tell me for sure--I set fsx.exe to use the AMD card in CCC, and then looked in the options to see what card was being used--and it still showed the Intel card. However, someone in the thread said that FSX is having trouble accessing the AMD card like OpenGL applications, which would make my test faulty.

 

Welcome to my world. that issue is what prompted me to spend countless hours with tech support, starting June 1st. Today is the 24th and HP still has no fix. FSX is the ONLY freaking "game" (I call it a "sim") I want to use, and it doesn't work--hence it's a deal-breaker situation, and some folks that only use apps that kick in the Radeon seem content to keep their DV6's. Guess I got unlucky with the combo of a late-model DV6 and FSX, eh? I remain hopeful we'll see a fix.

 

FSX and NVidia Optimus......
Seems Nvidia much acclaimed/vaunted Optimus cant offer u a solution either Dave.....auto switching in general is buggy across ALL platforms, however, a slightly different approach from game & software developers would probably help.

 

right, but yesterday I thought someone gave me a model number of a laptop that has NO SWITCHING. has an Nvidia card that runs 100%. forgot the model, but think it's an Asus. (too lazy to go searching at the moment)

 

Dunno. I'm not stalking ur threads Dave lol But yea just out of interest I typed in FSX+Optimus issues, Google lights up like a xmas tree. So yea I think both Dynamic Switching systems have varying degrees of issues. But I'm with u bud. Are we that retarded/lazy in 2011 we cant be bothered switching it ourselves?

 

Apparently. Cars that park themselves...strips on our razors that turn white when it's time to change the blade (as if we can't tell by the smoothness of the shave...).

 

Check your inbox. I PM'd you the info for the 15" ASUS so as to not derail the thread in the HP forum.

 

*Sighs* I just got this computer today and it won't run OpenGL either, just like everyone else. Is the Intel 3000 supposed to run OpenGL at all? Because I can't even get Minecraft to start, I get an OpenGL error.

 

I suggest sending an email to the ceo's office, for starters. I started a thread about that. You could call tech support but they have no fix, so that's a guaranteed waste of time until they fix whatever is wrong, be it new hardware or the drivers. Anyone who is betting that a driver is the issue and doesn't return their unit is gambling, IMO. Drivers worked on the older version of the DV6, so I am not convinced the issue is only s/w.

 

That's weird, my FSX just working out fine and runs as expected for a mid-low end Nvidia Optimus card.
Then again I keep my NV Ap Profile up to date.


Edit: google Searched "FSX+Optimus"
Good amount of those results are issues with AMD cards or basic technology queries.
But their sig contain the word Optimus. ....

 

You haven't sent it to me. I may have to break both your kneecaps.

EDIT: sorry, got your comment confused with someone who said their DV6 runs FSX. I didn't even look at your name when I posted. DUH!

 

????, ask AMD about that profile auto update, they are planning to put it in anyways so that you don't have to always update your CCC.

Anyways here is the 15.6 model with gf 460m that guy posted before.

Newegg.com - ASUS G Series G53SW-XN1 Notebook Intel Core i7 2630QM(2.00GHz) 15.6" 6GB Memory 500GB HDD 7200rpm DVD Super Multi NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460M

 

Hi all,

Thanks for the "dummies" thread. I posted this in the Owners Lounge but didn't see a reply, can one of you please help:

I mainly bought the dv7qte because I thought I could use the sandy bridge and dedicated graphics for HD video playback. I played some HD videos from my camcorder on the dv7tqe and it wasn't smooth. It played fine on my MacBook Pro using the same VLC player. I tried setting VLC Player to "High Performance" in the CCC Switchable Graphics window and it is still choppy.

Q1. I would appreciate if someone could explain how I can tell which card is being used. I have the GPUz utility but how do I tell from this?

Q2. Can I do anything to help with improving the performance of the HD video playback?

Q3. What adapter do people use for the Intel Wireless Display? I've read some pretty bad reviews of the Netgear one so far.

Thank you.

My config:
• Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit with Service Pack 1
• 2nd generation Intel(R) Quad Core(TM) i7-2630QM (2.0 GHz, 6MB L3 Cache) w/Turbo Boost up to 2.9 GHz
• 2GB GDDR5 Radeon(TM) HD 6770M Graphics [HDMI, VGA]
• FREE Upgrade to 6GB DDR3 System Memory (2 Dimm)
• 640GB 7200RPM Hard Drive with HP ProtectSmart Hard Drive Protection
• 6-Cell Lithium-Ion Battery
• 17.3" diagonal HD+ HP BrightView LED Display (1600 x 900)
• SuperMulti 8X DVD+/-R/RW with Double Layer Support
• HP TrueVision HD Webcam with Integrated Digital Microphone and HP SimplePass Fingerprint Reader

 

Most people and myself use Netgear PTV2000. The low review rating is usually due people who didn't read or meet the WIDi 2.1 specification or simply expected too much. But to me, it works really well and easy to use, took me a few clicks to run.
Everything is rendered though the Intel IGP and then sent to the Intel Wifi to a WIDi HDMI adapter. It can carry both sound and video.

Unfortunately, your model doesn't qualify for the 2.1 specification at the moment. But at least it can run in the 2.0 spec which doesn't support direct playback of protected content. There is a significant performance and feature difference between 2.0 and 2.1.

 

Agree with the gambling part. If the 6000 series folks update their drivers and still are telling me that there is a manual switching option, well this issue seems more than driver based on the surface.

Just return it, but before you do, complain like crazy that about this OpenGL crap and then ask if the issue is fixed in the upcoming weeks, am I able to purchase the same laptop again for the same price? I got a coupon extension which I'm sure they don't mind if you gonna be spending money.


And what is the CEO's email address?

 

HP Executive Team: CEO email

 

Does Lightroom use OpenGL as well? Would the integrated graphics suffice for things like HD netflix streaming?

 

I use VLC with the 6770M fine. If you have Hardware Monitor, just monitor the temps. If they are non-zero during usage, it is using the 6770m.

 

No, this is a driver issue plain and simple.

The 6000 series uses the old mux-based switchable graphics. That means that both GPUs (the Radeon and the Intel) are connected to a mux, and the mux connects to the display. When you switch graphics you are changing which GPU connects to the display.

The 6100 series uses a muxless design. This is the same basic design as NVIDIA Optimus. What that means is that the Radeon GPU renders into memory, but the Intel GPU is used for outputting the final image. This is the key here - the Intel GPU is always active, it's just that the Radeon does the rendering work when it's selected.

Clearly the problem is that AMD hasn't gotten working OpenGL support with the muxless design. That's probably because they didn't have the software engineering resources to get it done right away. Since most games on Windows are Direct3D (not OpenGL), it makes sense to focus on that first. But rest assured that there is nothing intrinsic to the muxless design that makes OpenGL impossible. NVIDIA does it with Optimus, so it's not even an issue with Windows. It's just a matter of AMD getting the driver support right.

You are never going to be able to switch purely to the Radeon graphics like you can on the 6000 series. The muxless technology doesn't work that way. You may at some point be able to force-select the Radeon GPU, but the Intel GPU will still be active.

The downsides of the muxless design are driver issues (Optimus users went through this), slightly lower performance (a couple of percent - not really noticeable), and basically no support for the dedicated GPU under non-Windows operating systems (there are significant issues in Linux that make doing muxless designs harder, and the engineering resources are not there).

The upsides of the muxless design are much quicker and more transparent switching, better driver support in the long term (the mux-based design is laptop specific and rely on hacks that Microsoft doesn't really support), and lower cost.

If you use OpenGL programs or games (other than those which run fine on the Intel GPU), don't buy a dv6-6100 or any muxless Radeon graphics laptop. The driver problem will almost certainly be fixed, but it could be weeks or months before a new driver is available.

If you use Linux and want fast graphics, don't buy any laptop with muxless graphics.

Otherwise, if you are like most people and want better graphics mostly for Direct3D Windows games (which is almost all of them), the muxless design is better. It's easier to use, less annoying, and will be better supported in the future.

The mux-based design sucks. I know, I own a ThinkPad T400 that uses it and for a year I had to reboot every time I wanted to play a game because the OS-based switching resulted in high power consumption.

 

Guys,

I saw that AMD has released updated drivers for HD 64xxM on 15 June 2011:

Catalyst Software Suit Rev.11.5
Catalyst Control Center Rev. 11.5

Do these update drivers solve the OpenGL issue?

Thanks!

 

bsoft, you may like this

AMD Dynamic Switchable Graphics Technology

i suspect this will come with the july drivers

 

The upsides are apparent especially driver support in the long run since this what sucks with new games on old laptops, but if the hardware is not being changed, why even get rid of a manual switch and disable dynamic option? Is there some inherent benefit? I'm saying keep the dynamic option for the everyday user, but keep some advanced options under say an advanced tab that we can force use of the dGPU especially when plugged in. Or I can just assume AMD and HP thinks they know better than me about which card I want to use and when... and then proved themselves wrong on the 6100 series.

 

Hey I'm about to order the dv6t Quad Edition with

-i7 2630 QM 2.0ghzquadcore
-6gig ram
-HD 6770m 1gb gpu
-640GB 7200rpm

After reading all these comments I'm scared to buy this computer.

Can anyone try those driver updates and give me a heads up please.

I need a new laptop by next week.

Thanks guys. Suggestions would also be appreciated!

 

DUDE! there is no fix for the problem, at this time. there is a very telling caveat in the fine print of graphics-card selections, on HP's customization page of the DV6. Here's a snip from the DV7 page:

That should give you pause to get this, or the DV6, if you need full access to the Radeon chip.