Sandy bridge Envy 14 disappointing?

The Envy was refreshed earlier today ( http://hpfansite.com/hp-mini/hp-2011-pavilion-dv4-mini-210-envy-14) By the looks of Envy 14's new features, only sandy bridge and usb 3.0 that is kinda disappointing. Has anyone heard of AMD 6XXX graphics being a new feature?

 

1) Wrong board, there is a separate spot for Envy products

2) Notebookcheck, among others, say it will feature AMD 6xxx graphics. Likely the 6770 like the dv6 has.

 

No. Aside from the only downer being the screen, I'd say it's something to look forward to. That touchpad with optical sensors sounds like it's going to be a leader in the PC touchpad field.

 

sealed the deal on a fully specced MBP15 for me

 

As long as the current speculation that only the brightview will be available is true, it's a disappointment to a great deal of prospective customers.

However, nobody really knows how much improvement to expect in battery life, touchpad usability, and GPU power, so until those questions are answered it's up in the air how much of an improvement the E14 SB will be over a regular Brightview E14. If the battery life gets a 10% or better boost, the touchpad works fluidly, and it sports a full-speed 6770 (or even 6750) then it's a big jump over the first-gen. If it gains less than 10% battery life, the touchpad's only decent, and it gets a 6650, then it's basically just a refresh, not really a second generation for the Envy 14.

 

While on paper the refresh looks great, with a greater than $1000 price tag and no 1600x900 screen option it doesn't matter to me personally, not with other machines that are in the similar price range with a 1600x900 offering like the upcoming SA.

Otherwise depending what the DV4 comes out with next wed. it will likely be the best HP offering if you want a 14" machine with decent graphic power since it will be far cheaper and likely perform the same as the envy14 refresh. If you care less about graphic performance than the dm4 is another cheaper option that seems to offer just as much, only giving up in the graphics department.

 

On that alone, FAIL.

I used to think that the GPU being a 6750 or better was the make or break feature, but if i cant even get a quad core, what is the point!?! I'm edging closer and closer to the dark side, and will likely be getting a MBP15 soon. Maybe i will just wait for Apple to release an Ivy Bridge update to the MBP, i've waited this long to be disappointed by HP.

*sigh*

 

Ironically, I'm most concerned about the trackpad. I love my E14 except for the trackpad. I'll probably be the first in line to try one out. I'm a web designer and am on the laptop all day long. The trackpad has been very, very disappointing to me, despite hours and hours of trying every fix under the Sun. HP failed miserably with the trackpad on the current E14's.


-brit

 

Have we had confirmation of no higher res screen option? Or is it simply the lack of info of a new screen that makes everyone assume there is none?


There are 3 potential disappointments with the new envy 14 series.

- graphics below 6770 like on the mainstream dv6 line.

- no usb 3.0 (not a concern as that will be there)

- No radiance like screen option.



That last is the worst offender, the standard screen looks so inferior to the macbook pro screens. The radiance was right up there will the top quality tn screens, but this kills it if something of equal or better quality is not available.


lenovo has an ips panel for a 12 inch ultra portable
dell has those rgb led backlit screens

Dell XPS L501x: An Excellent Mainstream Notebook - AnandTech :: Your Source for Hardware Analysis and News



The idea that hp would tolerate only having the same screen they stick on their budget 500 dollar dv5 models is a disgrace.

They are the single largest laptop seller in the world, they make billions in profit each year, how is it they cannot find a supplier for a panel better than the current one?

If they cannot, or worse - will not for concerns about cost and margin, all who care about a nicer screen ought to look elsewhere.

the horror is that while DELL has great screen options, their notebook design on the XPS series is hideous, absolutely HIDEOUS for a notebook in that class. So fantastically uninspired it makes babies cry.



It would be worth bringing back the envy 15 as an alternative envy for those who want better screen options. I still haven't heard confirmation there is no upgraded screen option, but we'll see.

 

They are using the same GPU, a 6630, which I think is a rebadged 5650. CNET seems like a valid source, and I would highly doubt they could upgrade the GPU with the current cooling problems anyway, the 5770 or 5750 has a TDP of 75-100% higher than a normal 5650 (the current one is underclocked to keep it even cooler, doubt its happening.

 

I won't believe that until I see it in the configuration page.

There are two fans, is cooling that bad?

the mbp 15 only has 1 fan, and even though it's slightly larger it manages to fit in a 6750 with a thinner frame.

Is there confirmation the internal layout is identical? where are you all getting all of this?

 

The 6630 is not a re-badged 5650. It is a slight upgrade. It would be extremely disappointing if the ENVY 14 does indeed have that GPU. What are the cooling problems anyway? I've only had my ENVY 14 for a few weeks but I've been doing some intensive gaming sessions. If I want the laptop to run cool I use the Intel graphics.

Honestly not gonna believe most things until I hear/read it from HP themselves. (or more reputable sources)

 

The current GPU is underclocked because the cooling is that bad, the normal 5650 runs at roughly 15-18 watts, the underclocked probably gets around 13-14, the 5750 and 5770 both run at the 25-29 watt range, which is double the current 13 -14 . It is not happening without any chassis and cooling changes, which we would have got a mention in the HP press release and the various other articles out, which all say nothing has been changed in the design/chassis layout.

Edit: HP press release and CNET are very credible sources...

I didn't want to believe it too, but once I looked up all thermal and power info on these GPUs, I really see how far fetched it sounds, if they keep the same layout Well lets hope I am wrong

What I find hope in is that the dm4 in Japan has a 6750 if I am not mistaken and it is a 14 inch laptop, if they were able to put it in there, I don't see why they can't figure out some way to throw in the Envy, I just don't understand why they would keep the same design, when they could change it and incorporate a better GPU.

Anyone try contacting support?

 

The press release says nothing about the GPU, which could be a good or bad thing. So where exactly does CNET Asia get their info? Do the non-US dm4's have a different layout than the US ones? I realize the problems that heat causes, but can't the latest ENVY's (especially some SB options) endure a bit more? I haven't had any overheating problems with mine.

 

I haven't seen any official news on the GPU and the CNET Asia article doesn't give a source so we don't know for sure right now. The last gen Envy had no heat problems as far as I heard so I would think they would have had some headroom for an upgrade.

 

I'm angry, the E14SB would be the best option for many of us with 2630QM and 6770, besides the 1600x900 screen, it would be the best in the market above all in its class

I would buy with their eyes closed without thinking, but ultimately if there is only one option for 6630... Unfortunately I have to look elsewhere...

I'll wait two weeks and see before making a decision.

 

From what I recall the cooling on the envy 14 was supposed to be pretty good, not bad. If there was a constraint I would think it was more a power constraint than a thermal one. (forced downclocks while on battery)

It's precisely because cooling was reportedly MUCH better on the envy 14 vs the older envy 15/17 that I figured they had more thermal headroom, not less.

 

actually it was an engineer solution (change in materials) that led to that perception that the e14 is cooler than the e15, or that it has a better cooling solution.

BTW the TDP of the 5650 in the e14 is 15W, not 13-14.

And the 6630m is an improvement upon the 5650m, quite a measurable one, some good 10-15fps

 

I said its in that range, and its underclocked so it is most likely puts it under the normal 5650. Where did you get the info that the 6630m is a significant improvement? I was reading that GPU site earlier and it was saying it is just a touch better than the 5650. Notebooktech?? is that it.

 

Extremely disappointing.

No reintroduction of the E15 when they aren't intending to provide any hi-res option on the E14? Weak.

My girlfriend is in the market for a new laptop and this essentially made sure she's going with a MBP15. Good work, HP.

 

Then you know what they should do?

Allow the lower quality materials to be used with a potential 6330, and change to more expensive materials (but better performing in terms of thermal conductivity or isolation or whatever) for models equipped with a 6770/6750.

Everyone's happy. If those materials increase the cost by 50 dollars per notebook, charge 100, still make your profit but allow a net benefit for all parties involved. I wish I knew why this type of approach is not taken. I must be naive or missing something because I don't see why this is not the obvious decision.


Is it because there would be a loss? or a lower margin per laptop? can't that be priced to compensate? And what is the problem with temporary losses for more marketshare power down the road?

Amazon lost money for years, selling items at a clear loss until that strategy paid off. The premium notebook segment is owned by apple, you want to take people away, and you need to outdo them, not under offer what they offer. It's just.... I don't know.

 

6630 is definitely not a significant improvement. Notebookcheck shows them it performing right on par with 5650.
AMD Radeon HD 6630M - Notebookcheck.net Tech

To be more precise, 6630 uses the same architecture as 5650, only with 480 cores vs 400 cores of the 5650. However 6630 is clocked at 485mhz (assuming no nerfing from HP), while stock 5650 is at 600mhz (nerfed to 450mhz in the Envy 14). So theoretically speaking, the 6630 is NOT an improvement over stock 5650, as 480x485mhz < 400x600mhz. However compared to the nerfed 5650 in Envy 14, the stock, non-nerfed 6630 should be a healthy 30 percent improvement.

However, to think like this is kind of perverse, since if we were to have a stock speed 5650 in the first place, the performance would have been the same as this "refreshed" one. So basically a year after Envy 14's first launch, HP says, here's a brand spanking new model with the graphics performance of what you guys could've had a year ago had we not f-ed up the cooling system.

Thank you HP, for not even trying.

 

Because it would be more expensive to offer options, especially for non-replaceable parts such as motherboard or even materials for a casing. It is always a lot cheaper for OEM to mass produce a models with the same configuration, that way economy of scale builds up to a pretty nice discount. To offer more option, it significantly increases fix costs in terms of R&D, logistics, custom build orders, etc etc. So the OEM would have to charge a lot more than just the part cost to offset these low volume demands.

But I still cannot forgive HP for throwing away this golden opportunity to steal sales away from MBP in the high end. Without a radiance screen or higher-midrange graphics card, the Envy is just settling in among a sea of mediocre laptops that are perpetually a few steps short of perfection.

 

Alright lets begin:

1) Notebookcheck only resembles reality when they are talking about the cards specs (core count, core clock, memory type, and so forth)

2) Have you noticed that in some benchamarks the difference between this card and the 5850m is non existent? Its just 1-4 fps, to what should be 20+, they always favor nvidia as well. I would check the vaio S owners lounge for more info

3) Completely wrong the arch is different although the manufacturing process is the same, otherwise there wouldnt be any improvements at all. Remember that now the 5600/5700m series is the 6550m and the 6570m, the 6550m has even higher clocks and voltage than the 5650m

4) You dont talk about clocks in different archs, since it wouldnt make most sense.

5) The 6600/6700m line up is this:

6630m - core clocks 485 memory clock 800 memory type DDR3

6650m - core clocks 600 memory clock 900 memory type DDR3

6730m - core clocks 725 memory clock 900 memory type DDR3

6750m - core clocks 600 memory clock 1600 memory type GDDR5

6770m - core clocks 725 memory clock 1600 memory type GDDR5

The 6630m was created for thin and light with some gaming capabilities, so they need a lower TDP card to be put in there, since the cooling system wont handle it.

 

I agree that the fps benchmark is useless as they don't account for the difference in driver or CPU power. A Sandy bridge powered 6630 is likely to outperform a arrandale powered 5830 when given CPU bottle necked tasks.

However, "The 480 Stream processors should be still based on the "old" 5D architecture similar to the 5000 series.", unless notebook check is completely wrong on this, the performance between the two cards should be comparable on core count and clock speed alone, as this was not a architecture revamp like when nvidia introduced G104 based GTX 485m vs G100 based GTX 480m.

 

1) the GTX 480m is a GF 106 core, the same as the GTX 460.
2) the only cards that feature the 4d now are the 6900 series, and not the mobile one.

 

I really don't know where you're getting your info, but

"Other than the GeForce GTX 480M, the 485M is no longer based on a trimmed down GF100 chip, but on the related GF104, "
Review Nvidia Geforce GTX 485M graphics card - Notebookcheck.net Reviews

"Of course, the really big news item here is NVIDIA's GeForce GTX 485M. Since the GF104 was released (and later refreshed by the GF114), I felt like that was the core that really should've gone mobile. The GF100-based GeForce GTX 480M was too horribly trimmed, "
AnandTech - AVADirect's Clevo P170HM with GeForce GTX 485M: High-End You've Been Waiting For

485m is a different architecture than 480m, and none of them is a GF106...

I stand corrected that 6630 is a slightly different architecture than 5650. However the improvement from RV to Turks is not as significant as say, from GF100 to GF104/GF114 or Arrandale to Sandy Bridge. The original point we were arguing about is that 6630 is an unacceptable upgrade from 5650 as most people were hoping a 6750 with GDDR support. But now we are very likely to stuck with an incremental increase for such a highly anticipated performance notebook.