Small Claims Court against HP

Anybody have any experience suing HP in small claims court and actually taking it to trial?

 

I doubt it would go very far (not sure why you are going to court though), because HP has a large team of lawyers, and a large legal dept. It may just be easier to talk to your case manager and get it resolved that way.

 

The state I reside in lawyers are not allowed to participate in small claims court.
You could give this a try and hope a representative from HP doesn't show up for court and you win by default.
The route I would take though is, if there's a Department of Consumer Affairs bureau in your state file a complaint with them. You got a bigger stick to hit them over the head with and getting their attention to your problem.

 

I doubt your case would go that far. Small Claims Court favors the consumer. Once HP received the summons they would probably try to settle right away. They know they are in the wrong and would lose if they went in front of a judge. And there is no point in incurring the additional costs of sending someone. Since your state allows for triple the damages, when HP makes their offer you may want to play hardball and demand a much better machine and warrranty as compensation for all your time and hassle. Or you could stick it to them and just go to court. The only way these corporations are going to stop mistreating their customers is if they are forced to pay a penalty for doing so. Triple the damages would would be a nice "slap" and may motivate them to deal more fairly with others in the future.

Google: "HP Small Claims Court", you will find a number of success stories as well as instructions on how to file.

Please keep us updated.

 

Well, what are you suing about?

 

I dont think youll be happy with the end result if you take it into litigation.

Although a class action lawsuit would be more effective..

Theres probably several pending lawsuits against HP already.

 

You should probably try the BBB first to see if you can get any results. Plus, I don't think it costs any money to file with them.

 

Yup civil cases are always encouraged to try resolve everything before making it a legal matter .

It works in 3 steps.

1) Contact Seller to try resolve it

2) Contact Consumer Affairs (what ever its called in your country)

If your not satisfied with the above:

3) Sue Seller.

 

Thanks. I'm thinking this very likely fits the case for a Consumer Protection Act claim for unfair business practice (possible triple damages). See what you think. To summarize my case (more details elsewhere int this forum):

The main problem is that HP damaged my month-old laptop during repair (while replacing failed heat-sink fan). It was sent to them in new condition and came back with several scratches, abrasions, a chip and solvent stain on the cover, and solvent fingerprints all over the screen. I assume this was a petroleum distillate solvent (something you don't want anywhere near your LCD screen according to all manufacturers - including HP) used to remove hardened thermal grease. Also, they forced me to run it boiling hot with a failed fan for several hours of troubleshooting before agreeing to accept for repair (i found this out after checking with a non-HP tech later who said they should have told me to shut it down immediately). Oh, and I forgot: They initially denied there was any problem, telling me it was probably normal, then tried to blame on 3rd party drivers, Microsoft, etc. It was repaired somewhere in Georgia (the US state, not the former Soviet state-although i probably spoke with some support rep from there).

After getting it back damaged, I asked them to replace it, and so began the nightmare of HP's denial, obfuscation, finger-pointing, and flat out lying. They tried to blame the damage on FedEx, but i took photos before i sent it in and the FedEx box was completely undamaged when i received it. Then, after i e-mailed photos of the damage, a senior case manager said it "looks like damage done by the user." This has been going on for TWO MONTHS now. The case managers have been completely unresponsive and rude. Of course they keep saying "there is no one higher" you can speak with. And you can't even e-mail the case managers. They say they only have group e-mail that might take several days to get to them, if it ever does. Guess they don't want an electronic paper trail.

Executive Customer Relations (ECR) told me they got my AG complaint and would respond to it, but still could do nothing for me. I e-mailed photos to the board and Todd Bradley (VP, Personal Systems Group) who just forwarded the e-mail to ECR, who forwarded it to the case manager (guess he does have direct e-mail, after all). Massachusetts requires a 30 day notice letter before suing under the Consumer Protection Act, so I sent that certified mail, and HP received it on 5/8/08. ECR refused to forward it to legal because it wasn't on legal letterhead. I said my state doesn't require it to be from a lawyer, and ECR said "well, we have to follow HP policies, and that's how we do it." In other words, screw your state laws. So they sent it to..you guessed it..the case manager, who said he couldn't do anything with it because I had "started the legal process." Nice little Catch 22. Anyway, no response after 30 days. Then one day when calling my "senior" case manager, I was told he no longer works in case management. Why not, I asked? "HP doesn't comment on internal policy." So I had to start over completely with a new case manager. Strangely enough, however, my old case manager was back about ten days later.

Sorry for the length, but it gets me upset every time i think about it. So it looks like to court we go for triple damages, and I want to make it as PUBLIC as possible. Anyone with similar circumstances or other advice, please feel free to comment.

 

Quite a story.

I think it is a policy for many companies to deliberately drag their feet and stall as much as possible. They rely on the fact that most consumers will get discouraged, give up and then just go away.

Make sure you fill out the paperwork properly. Here is link to someone who sued to receive a refund on Windows when they installed Linux. It contains details on the whole Small Claims Court process (California).

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040

You have given HP more than enough time to do what is right. It will be interesting to see how quickly they reply after they are served. Are you going to file your case this week?

Good Luck!

 

Thanks, very interesting link. Yes, i am planning to file this week. I meant to last week but got too busy.

 

Thanks again to all for the advice. Guess what? Ginger from HP Executive Customer Relations now actually wants to get the matter settled, and asked what she could do. "How can that be possible?" I asked, since no fewer than 5 persons from ECR, over the past 2 months, told me that they can do NOTHING because it is all up to the case manager. Apparently that was also untrue. She stated HP is willing to refund the purchase price of the laptop, but only after I return it to them (not really sure I can trust them at this point.)

I said I had incurred expenses over the past few months, including postage, phone, gas, copying, etc., (around $50 as of 1 month ago) and if she would include expenses I might consider it. And that's not including the hell HP put me thru for two months, or the useless HOURS I spent troubleshooting for HP, or all the time without my laptop due to HP's negligence. She absolutely refused, saying she would do the purchase price and that's it. Just when it looked like someone at HP might actually be reasonable...guess again. So HP is willing to continue more than two months of obstruction and denial over $50.

Well, I've had it. I'm not giving in now, whether it's $50 or $5. If I have to go to court to recover my expenses, then so be it. I'm just getting my second wind. And I will do everything I can to make sure it's very public, so that HP might just decide it's better business practice to honor its legal warranty obligations, rather than try to deceive and obstruct their way out of them.

 

Average cost to file a small claims case is >$50.
Do you work? If so you will have to take time off from work to go to court.
Do you enjoy listening to people argue over rent? You will likely have to listen to other cases before yours is called.
I've experienced the case manager and HP misery and it was longer than two months.
I would take the refund. I did take the refund.
My time is worth more than $50.

 

you will lose this case hands down. they are willing to refund you the cost of the notebook and you are telling them to pay for your gas. ahahahhah. the judge will laugh at you. sorry to be so blunt but you really need take a step back and look at the situation.

 

I doubt it. It sounds like the original poster did both his research and homework. Photo's in small claims court go a long way in proving your case.

This will (or has) been covered in the claim. The expense is part of the claim.

The judge will laugh? Highly unlikely. HP doesn't want to bothered with a tenacious consumer ready to take them to court. I wager that HP will settle well before the court date.

 

I agree. I will win and the judge will not laugh. But then I am somewhat biased in favor of my own case. And I not only have photos, but records depicting all of my contact with HP as well as all costs. I figure that, worst case, I would get a judgement for what HP is offering now, plus my filing fee. At least that way I will have a court-ordered and enforceable judgement. And if HP settles, that too has to be submitted to the court. After all this, I'm not sure I trust HP to follow through on their telephone offer - which they could withdraw at any time.

Please keep the comments coming...positive or negative, I appreciate all (but no HP ringers please).

 

I agree with garetjax completely.

You have already indicated that the HP rep tracked you down. Why would she have bothered if your letter and postings had not got their attention. The squeeky wheel gets the grease. This is just HP's first offer to see if you will go away cheaply.

You already have a lot of time invested. Filing suit is very easy. It will only take a little more time to go down to the courthouse. The forms can probably be downloaded off the internet.

A summons in HP's eyes will skyrocket your commitment to a whole new level. If HP went to court they would have to pay somone to go to your state and spend all day there. That is likley to involve airfair and lodging in addition to their daily payment. Add these expenses to a probable triple the computer's costs and you are looking at a chunk of change.

HP has dealt with you in very bad faith. You are entitled to compensation well beyond the price of your machine. Since your state provides for triple the damages I would go for it. It is likely that HP will make a much better offer long before you go to court. You could ask for a much better laptop with a three year warranty as compensation for all your time and hassle if you want.

The very worse case scenario from your end would be a day off and receipt of only the computer's cost. It is far more likely that a summons will prompt a much better offer from HP and you will not have to go to court. If you do, HP would probaly not show and you would be awarded triple the computer's costs.

 

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I work, but fortunately I have a great deal of flexibilty regarding my schedule. The way I see it, all the time I've put in so far will have been wasted if I don't follow through.

I understand where you're coming from about sitting through other cases, but HP has me so pissed off I would consider it more than worthwhile. Maybe I'll be lucky and get to see a few entertaining ones. Might even learn a trick or two.

 

That's the spirit!

The only way corporations like HP will stop abusing consumers is if more of them like vertical2010 are willing to call them on it and take them to court.

 

Canyon: Thanks again for all your excellent comments. I am definitely leaning toward court and will keep you posted. Hopefully I can make it down to the courthouse tomorrow.

 

You are welcome vertical2010.

Good Luck!

 

Large companies like HP have an army of legal aid on retainer

It will cost them more money going to court. You guys will probably work something out before it even gets there.

 

Good luck with that... my brother had a similar situation with a car, gave abundant facts proving that damage was done and repairs were not sufficient and actually made things worse.

Lo and behold, the judge didn't comprehend it all and the case went in the opposite way of my brother. Then again, I live in Texas and courts are different in each state, so I guess it just depends.

My point, however, is don't become egotistical and think this is a slam dunk case for you simply because you have evidence. My brother had all the evidence in the world. Didn't work. Their offer seems pretty darn good. You're only losing $50, and you could probably buy a better laptop (from any manufacturer) now, even minus the $50.

I understand it's a matter of principle, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet. You mean to tell me your time and money are worth either simply getting the additional $50 back, or not getting anything out of your case at all, and maybe even having HP's offer removed? I wouldn't take that gamble, personally.

Sucks, but that's just my two cents.

 

I am sorry to hear about your brother's results. But I don't know what the facts were and how well the case was presented to the judge.

Any court case is a gamble. From his postings vertical2010 has demonstrated that he is well organized and has good documentation. This will help his case immensely and greatly increases his chances that the judge will rule in his favor.

HP has demonstrated very bad faith in this entire matter. It wasn't as though, up front HP offered to refund his money and he wanted more. They jerked him around for over two months. A judge is going to recognize all that and take it into consideration when considering the damages. And the only reason HP has made this recent offer is because his postings and actions have demonstrated his tenacity and his letter has threatened a law suit.

His state provides triple the damages in these Consumer Affairs type of cases. In a worse case scenario he would likely just win HP's initial offer plus his expenses anyway. HP damaged his laptop during repair, he is entitled to have his money refunded, sueing doesn't change that fact. And since HP has already admitted responsibility by making their offer, he would only be risking his time going to court. IMO given the costs HP would incur sending someone to court, I think it highly unlikely they won't make a much better offer once they have been served. His actions also serve as a deterent to HP to treat their customers fairly and not abuse them.

 

what state are you in vertical?

 

Massachusetts

 

Take the money and run. Refunding the purchase price of a rapidly depreciating piece of tech is a good deal.

Also, there's no excuse for HP to be using petroleum solvents. Articlean, a citrus based solvent from the Artic Silver crew, has removed even the most baked-in gunk for me. That's not to say that getting Arcticlean on your LCD is a bright idea, but still.

 

My brother had pictures, documentation of work supposed to be done and fixed, documentation from multiple third parties saying the work wasn't actually done, etc. Trust me, there was an abundance of evidence. Even if the judge gets all the evidence vertical has, there's no guarantee he's going to get anything. And if that happens, he's much worse off. You also have to hope the judge is at least informed enough about the matter at hand to rule your way. Who's to say he doesn't get a technophobe judge who doesn't comprehend the case at all?

 

Again, it is not fair to comment on your brother's situation. I wasn't there and don't know the facts. Your brother could have been in the right legally, presented his case well and still have lost. The judge may unfortunately have been biased against him for some unknown reason.

I am not an attorney, but I think the law in vertical's situation would not be ambiguous. His laptop had a heatsink fan failure. Techs told him to run it hot to run diagnostics which was a mistake and may have damaged the processor. He returned it to HP for repairs and it came back damaged. He asked for a refund and HP denied all responsibility despite Vertical's supportive evidence to the countrary. He got the runaround for two months, when out of the blue an HP rep offers to refund his money. Appparently this rep tracked him down from his postings on this forum. My supposition is the rep recognized that this guy wasn't going to go away, had a strong case, and was generating a lot of bad press. So she acted and offered to refund his money. An appropriate if not very belated action on her part.

From my experience nothing get a recalcitrant corporation to play fair like threatening a Small Claims lawsuit. They know when they are breaking the law and are abusing consumers. They count on their apathy and fear of the legal system to consistently take advantage of them.

IMO most judges are smart, know the law, and try to be fair in their rulings. They clearly recognize when big business isn't playing by the rules and is taking advantage of the consumer. It is clear that HP hasn't played fair in vertical's situation. Very few people would have spent the time and gone through the two month hassel that vertical has without being on the level. I think most judges are perceptive enough to clearly recognize this fact especially when presented with the documentation that he has compiled.

In conclusion, I agree there is a chance he could get a bad judge. But I think it far more lkely that he would get someone reasonable who would recognize the merits of his case and rule in his favor. These facts are clear to HP otherwise they would never have made their 11th hour offer.

I still think damages equal to Hp's initial offer would be vertical's worst case scenario and a generous settlement or triple the damages from a court ruling his best case. He only risks his time by going to Small Claims.

The reasons that I am expending this much time posting on this issue are first - expectations of a very successfull outcome and second - helping to establish a clear permanent record of his actions on this forum. A record that can be accessed by others who are experiencing similar problems with HP.

It is also my opinion that preventing the creation of this permanent record in this popular forum is the real underlying reason for HP's sudden change of heart - prompting their 11th hour refund offer.

 

I really understand your situation through this line (and love those words ) I know you're deadly hungry to eat HP

Personally, I've never dealt with any thing like this before so I couldn't give you any advice (sorry ), but through what you did to be ready for the course, I believe you'll get them :yes:

Canyon has been very helpful and supportive to you, I have to say

Sorry to hear that and good luck vertical

 

Thanks again Canyon and all for your support and excellent posts in this and the other thread.

I have read all the pros & cons offered here (thanks!) and still plan on filing in small claims court - didn't get to it yesterday but today looks better. I understand there are potential negatives, but the pros win out for me.

I'll put these out in case others are thinking about it also. The main reason I am going ahead is that Canyon is correct: HP has acted unethically and in BAD FAITH throughout this entire matter, much more so than any other company I have ever dealt with. This was not just an honest difference of opinion. It occurred to me that no one at HP ever questioned my initial claims about support denying the problem ("it's probably normal"), followed by blaming others (Microsoft, 3rd party drivers) and then forcing me to run the unit boiling hot - with a defective fan - for hours of troubleshooting before agreeing to accept it for repair. They didn't question it or deny any of this because that's the way HP support normally does business. As for the scratches and solvent damage during repair, they also did not seem surprised or (initially) deny such damage. I'm sure I cannot have been the only one with such complaints. It wasn't until well into this, when it looked like I wasn't going away, that the case manager tried to blame the physical damage on me. (By the way: For those who haven't been reading previous posts, this laptop was a month old and we're not talking a few minor scratches. We're talking a chip and two abrasions, and several long scratches on the cover. And it's a black, dimpled surface - as in not shiny. You have to work at it to scratch it!).

In short, I believe HP's actions indicate they knew from the start that my claims were all very likely true because they were indicative of a widespread pattern of inferior, unacceptable support. It's very likely they've had many similar claims, and have probably known for some time that they've had a serious problem with their warranty support/repair service. It's was rated last by Consumer Reports (June 2008 issue) for a reason - probably due to outsourcing everything to the lowest bidder without ensuring adequate technical competency, training or quality controls (that would have cost $$).

HP should have taken action to resolve the problem and provide competent service under the warranty contract, both in my case and in general. In other words, treat their customers fairly and honor their legal obligations. Instead, HP acted in bad faith by choosing a course of obstruction, deception, denial, harassment and obfuscation, setting up roadblock after roadblock in the hope that most customers would eventually give up and go away.

I think I've spent far too much time and expense on this, and put up with far too much abuse, to simply settle for what I initially asked for over two months ago. Additionally, as Canyon also pointed out, I believe HP only decided to change their tune because of my many posts, and yours, nearly all of which had the painful ring of truth. After I responded to an e-mail from ECR received thru this forum, and they were able to connect my case to my posts, suddenly ECR, previously self-described as "able to do nothing except relay messages to case managers," was miraculously empowered to attempt to settle the matter. Sorry, but too little offered, far too late.

As for trust, I have none left for HP, and therefore want a court-enforceable judgment or settlement. If I were to agree to the current offer, and send in my laptop in exchange for later payment, nothing is to prevent them from reneging. I can envision HP claiming they found indications of "consumer damage" after all, and withholding payment, and I would not have the laptop as evidence to dispute it.

Further, if we do try the case, I believe it very unlikely I would end up worse off. I may not be awarded double or triple damages (I've been told the bar is pretty high for that), but I believe I would at least prevail in the amount of the current offer, plus expenses and court costs, and it would be a court-ordered, enforceable judgment.

Finally, I'm fed up with the way many large companies treat their customers after the sale and get away with it (although HP has by far been the worst I've experienced). I think bringing suit would send more of a message that they cannot continue to do business in such an unethical and illegal fashion and expect consumers to continue to trust them and buy their products. Not just my suit, by the way, but hopefully the numerous other ones it encourages - maybe even a few state AGs piling on for good measure.

Thanks again to all for your advise. I'll keep you posted.

 

please do! when is the court date? Im anxious to see what happens

 

No court date yet.

 

This is an incredibly discerning and critically thought-out observation. I am impressed and very sad to say I could just imagine this happening. And you have HP admitting wrong-doing, which is vitally important to your case.

 

I'm sorry to hear that you had to experience the POS service that is HP repair. It looks like if you send in your HP laptop for repairs, there's a high chance it will come back with scratches everywhere. A quick search returned these threads:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?p=2776521

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=209219

 

Thanks ghostbear. I had seen one of those threads but not the other. Guess I'm definitely not an isolated case. By the way, I never posted any photos of the damage. But here's one that shows just SOME of it (it was one month old and in like-new condition - NO scratches or any marks at all on the cover - when I sent it in for repair):

 

At this point your stress level over $50 has prob started to damage you mentally and physically.....Can you still just get the $ back??
I would have done that in a second and moved on.
Well, after I did the same thing you're doing just with a builder, I learned how much you can spend on a case.........you'll be dying your hair after this is over.
get your cash, get a diff brand...

 

Physical and mental damage? Get real. I view this as an interesting challenge. I like a good fight every now and then to keep me mentally stimulated. Especially if it involves asserting my legal rights after someone's tried to deny them.. and treated me like crap in the process. Don't forget, this is the state that fired the first shots of the American Revolution!

OK, maybe that's going a bit far..we are just talking about a laptop here. But the principal is the same: The behemoth abusing the little guy.

P.S. Don't worry HP, i won't claim HP-induced physical ailments or emotional distress, so you don't have to bring a copy of this to court. (If my laptop could sue you directly, however, I think it would claim aggravated assault & battery.)

 

I think you meant compensation for the time wasted and the hassles you had to go through

 

Sorry dude, just telling you like it is. You probrably eat, sleep, and crap Hp right now. If they offered you the cash, you could have bought another notebook and moved way beyond this....and been real happy with whatever you chose....Really though good luck.
But it has "you had your chance" written all over it and you didn't take it.
Let me thumbnail this for you....
Moved into new house 6 years ago.
Got water, promised I wouldn't...
After being told "to scratch" by the builder, I did everything you did...it made me sick to my stomach.
After I threatend with court, he sent someone out to replace, lo and behold, a crushed perimeter drain pipe...2 years after I moved in!!!!
I asked for no compensation, and were talking much more $$$ than a laptop, which you were offered the $ back on...

 

I don't think so.

HP has refused to put his refund offer in writing and never responded to his Chapter 93A Demand Notice.

What do you think these actions on HP's part or more accurately, their lack of action suggusts?

If you were you in his shoes, would you blithely return your laptop and trust that HP honors their offer?

How do you think a judge will view HP in light of these facts, particularily after vertical has presented him with a detailed documented timeline of what has transpired?

Do you think he may agree that HP has put roadblock after roadblock in place, hoping that he and others like him would just give up and go away and be stuck with a brand new disfigured laptop?

Do you think HP has followed fair and ethical bussiness practices?

Do you think that he may be doing a service to the laptop purchasing community by attempting to bring these atrocious business practices to light?

Maybe a few (or more) people who will read this forum will be spared a costly and extremely frustrating similiar experience with HP?

I certainly hope to hell that my new laptop doesn't break and I am forced to endure a similiar repair nightmare with HP.

 

After they offered to pay for it, did they say they wanted the laptop back first..? either way, after they offered it, I could be wrong, it sounded like he negelected to pursue how they would pay him and when, it sounded like he went right for extra monies.
Don't read me wrong, I think Hp is ripping him a new rear end, but that's what I got out of it...I also want him to get his money back.

 

I am only going from what he has posted. I am assuming they verbally offered (over the telephone) to refund his money after he returned the laptop, but they refused to put their offer into writing nor did they respond to his demand letter in writing either.

Apparently he was very leary and didn't trust them enough to send in the laptop and wait for the refund. I don't see why HP wouldn't just write something up and mail it to him. It certainly is a very resonable request. From my experiences you can promise anything over the phone and it holds very little legal weight. I would never agree to any verbal offer without having it put into writing first.

Given his past history with HP I don't blame him in feeling the need to go Small Claims Court to receive a court ordered and enforceable judgement. I wouldn't have trusted them either.

 

ok, well i agree with that.
With the amount of laptops they sell, Hp, I cant believe they cant replace it for him, or at least fix wht they "broke". Not good service at all. I like the dv6000z series, and the t as well, but i can like the look and feel all I want, i'm not even going to consider them now....the fujitsu A3210 or A6110 feels so much more solid, and doesnt have those fancy touch windows for cd dvd controls....i like buttons...more reliable in my opinion....but at one point Hp was an option, but too many issues like this keep coming up, not so much service, but reliability issues....

 

From the number of horror stories I have read on this forum, it may be worth it to pay more for another manufacture's model and not risk an HP support and/or repair nightmare.

I have contacted HP support several times when I first purchased my laptop. Except for one helpful individual they were mostly clueless on the several issues I had. Most of my calls were routed to "Indian" representatives who were very hard to understand. I could tell they were just following scripts and had a very limited understanding of computers. I also sent two e-mail support questions (on the same topic) and they were both ignored. When I tried calling on the same issue the representative gave me the runaround and told me I would have to contact another service department and have to pay for their time.

My conclusion is that unless you are a computer novice and have a very basic problem, calling suppport may not be worth your time and effort. Luckily, I can usually track down a solution by myself. I feel very sorry for less experienced consumers who may not be able to and are going to be at the mercy of HP's support.

 

I'm not to shabby with finding away around some issues. BUT, I would buy the worlds ugliest laptop provided the reliability and service were the best.
I dont take risks to often, so I won't buy the Hp.
I wonder if Hp even knows they'll have a court date soon....hehehehe

 

I think HP does monitor this forum. The rep who had made the verbal offer to vertical had tracked him down from his postings on this forum. If he hadn't been so tenacious in those postings I doubt HP would ever have had their change of heart and made him an offer.

It wouldn't surprise me if the more vocal posting proponents recommending that vertical abandon his Small Claims Court action is not an HP ringer. I.e., an individual paid by HP to "muddy the forum's waters" by posting viewpoints favorable to HP's interest. This is a very popular forum and HP has a lot to gain by trying to blunt the numerous ongoing negative posts that are routinely made here by unhappy HP customers.

 

Tinfoil much?

Seriously though, I don't doubt that some in HP take a peak every now and again in the forum especially when it comes to reviews of their products and to see how viral their coupon codes are.

But to suggest that those who opined against going to small claims court as being HP shills is way out there, my fine, yet onstentatiously paranoid friend. :twitcy:

 

You're probably right, but I've seen stranger things than that in the tubes.

 

2.0, I may not agree with your views on Small Claims Court, but I am truly entertained by your posts.