Lenovo | Think Brand Split: Future Product Lines Discussion

During lenovo's recent transition into the 'mature' consumer PC market (in the last 3ish years), they've been increasingly sloppy and wasteful with their product lines, allowing serious product overlap, unorganized product lines, and justified confusion about the future of these product lines. They've recently announced a Lenovo/Think brand separation (See article/quote below). I'd like to discuss how lenovo can learn from these last few years by taking what works and condensing it into the rumored two separate, but similar, product lines (business and consumer).

THE SPLIT: "Lenovo has confirmed a carefully leaked internal memo in which chief executive Yang Yuanqing lays out his plans to restructure the company into two distinct business units -- Think Business Group and Lenovo Business group. Think, which will be headed by the current head of the company's product group, Peter Hortensius, will focus on selling Lenovo's Think-branded PCs, as well as other enterprise business services. Lenovo, which will be led by the head of the company's mobile internet division, Liu Jun, will focus on everything else the company sells, ranging from its lower to midrange PCs to its smartphones.

Mr. Yang notes in the memo that the impetus behind this split was a desire to improve operating efficiency and "clarify" its brands. He hopes that the new structure will help the PC manufacturer better target the most lucrative parts of the waning PC market. "We tried to push the Lenovo brand in mature markets but we realized that, as a brand, Lenovo only works in the mainstream and low-end market," Mr. Yang said in the email. "In the high-end markets, Think is our best brand asset and the only brand which can compete against Apple.""

LEARN FROM APPLE: One thing [I hope] lenovo is currently learning from Apple is that cohesiveness across there product lines is VERY important. Example: the thinkpad twist, x230t, helix, ideapad yoga, and other variants only confuses the end-consumer. Despite their price-gouging, Apple is far-and-away the best at presenting their products neatly. Each product has it's place and options for upgrades. The phone=iPhone, tablet=iPad, small notebook=MBAir, high-end laptop+MBPro, minidesktop=Mac Mini, desktop=Mac Pro, and all-in-one=iMac. I just laid out their entire line from memory, and I never shop for Apple products! I can't even remember all of lenovo's experiments, let alone the $%@ed up naming schemes for laptops alone! Not to mention their phone and tablet lines, which the average consumer couldn't care less about.

CONDENSE PRODUCT LINES: In my opinion, lenovo must neatly transform and condense their product lines. This will be painful from a company perspective, but they have keep their future prototypes off the market until they're certain a release will be successful. In my opinion, nobody needs 5 completely different options for a multifunction laptop/tablet from a single company.

FUTURE NOMENCLATURE: Assuming they are separating I think lenovo's future product lines could look something like this (X=numbers according to screen size and/or performance). I personally like and prefer neat nomenclature (I understand the naming of my T61) to cute names (Twist, Helix, Edge = senseless and cheap marketing). For the new "think" lines, they should not use names, but rather a simple and logical nomenclature designed for future product releases.

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Think Brand: Workstation ( WXXX) = any desktop PC or all-in-ones, ThinkPad ( TXXX) = laptop PCs T+X merge. ThinkTab ( XXXX) = tablets. (Delete and forget about all the Edge, E and L series, etc.).

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Lenovo Brand: I truly don't care about the consumer side until the mobile products mature (mostly tablets and phones are too early to tell). Just make it simple please. I like the IdeaPad/IdeaTab naming but think they should hack merge and simplify the Y, Z, S lines. I'd also delete the Essential (G) Series, unless they want "lenovo" to be associated with garbage PCs (I understand the profitability, but again, look at Apple).

DISCUSSION: The problem I see with separating the Lenovo and Think lines is that it is not necessary. Many of us already wish (though most of us don't realize it) lenovo would merge products from the Ideapad and Thinkpad lines...something like X1C is effectively a better redesign merge of the T430 and U430, albeit too thin for heavy applications (video editing, design, CAD programs, etc.). Apple sells their MBP, iPhone, and iPad lines to both consumers and business for premium prices, why shouldn't lenovo? People making less than $20,000/year still buy products from all of Apple's product lines, mainly because they (1) are aware of and understand the products, (2) are confident in the quality, and (3) want the best, yet affordable technology.

Whichever way lenovo goes with there product lines, they also need to promote the cohesive environment that Windows 8 can bring across their product lines, such as syncing content from your Think desktop, laptop, tablet, and phone in an easy-to-use top-down manner. I also strongly believe lenovo should invest very heavily in carbon fiber R&D. Improved designs (especially cooling), improved material usage, and reduced cost for carbon fiber across the entire Think brand would propel it ahead of it's competitors in terms of build-quality and allow toe-to-toe domination of Apple's aluminum unibody designs (to the point that Apple will eventually alter their materials).

Please share your thoughts on lenovo's 'split' into business/personal PC lines. What do you think lenovo/think will or should do? What would you like to see in their future product lines? What lines should they get rid of, merge, or condense to better compete?

 

The chaotic bazaar that is Lenovo doesn't pay me enough to spend my precious time presenting my ideas in a comprehensive manner.

I've been using many ThinkPads for over a decade. Right now, I only keep two ThinkPad notebooks. I don't care if the rest of Lenovo products make sense to anyone at all.

 

Your optimism leads me to believe that you haven't been watching Lenovo's course of action too closely over the past eight years...

Expect the worst, and you'll likely still end up being shown that you held your hopes way too high.

 

That about sums it up.

 

technology is always chaotic.

Don't think I am qualified to contribute to the discussion, but I expect to see more customization in the tp line-up.

http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Customization-Frontier-Business-Competition/dp/0875843727

 

Huh? Disciplined design and engineering reign in the chaos.

Sigh.

 

Haha yeah I know, but I have been following it and I am more optimistic than you could ever be . Don't you think the fact that they are restructuring (at least a little bit) into the 'Lenovo' and 'Think' brands is a sign of improvement? This would be the first major shift in their overall direction. IMHO it can't get any worse that their current offerings, which is why I'm holding off on a new laptop. The X1C hints at something great, but it's a niche product with little actual CPU/GPU power, poor battery life, and sub-stellar screen quality compared to the new 1080p and retina screens. I realize you're an IBM-->lenovo old-timer, but are you really that pessimistic?

Realize that lenovo already has some major improvements (mostly on the X1C) that could be incorporated into all of their new notebooks: carbon fiber chassis (not all carbon fiber designs are great and CF WILL IMPROVE), high quality trackpad (yes, I realize some trackpads had problems but certainly not the one I used), backlit keyboard (the X1C chiclet keys are better than other notebook keyboards I've used), and the automatic upgrades: SSD + 2013 low-power intel processors = great success.

Their to-do list is shorter (but yes, more difficult to get right): better screens, redesign carbon fiber chassis for high-end CPU/dedicated GPU cooling, and maintain good I/O, ruggedness, dock-ability, and user upgradeability (mainly RAM, SSD, batteries).


In reply to Kaso: there is a nifty little speech recognition program called Dragon by Nuance. It's really quite easy to get coherent thoughts into typed words...so long as you have coherent thoughts, that is. Also, don't you think your lenovo ThinkPads would be better if lenovo grew its brand to compete with Apple? Just trying to foster an actual discussion...I understand if your time is too precious, but next time please don't try to crap on a half-way decent and well-intentioned post.

 

I believe that you've just answered that question yourself...but just in case you're still wondering:

"Pessimistic" doesn't begin to touch the highest cloud above the boiling Vesuvius that my disgust and anger towards Lenovo are.

Two main reasons for those feelings would be:

a) They managed to destroy just about everything that brought me to ThinkPads in the first place.

b) I gave them a benefit of a doubt one too many times just to be disappointed again. And again. And again. Now, a huge part of this scenario is my fault and not theirs.

In all fairness, I'm not the one who matters here anymore. You and the prospective future buyers are. I'm off the map for good.

At this point in the game, I wouldn't accept any of the new ThinkPads even as a gift.

 

I'd say Lenovo Thinkpads got a lot WORSE precisely because Lenovo decided to compete with Apple (not that it's working out in North America, at least). Step by step, things which were good and unique about Thinkpads, things that were better than Apple, and other high-end consumer laptops (like Dell XPS, or HPs etc) disappear.

We have already lost proper keyboard layout, loss of proper docking station is on the way, upgrade-ability and repairability and replaceable batteries and, oh no, a real Trackpoint, are all marching to oblivion. Matte screens are still offered, surprisingly, but that's no for long. To be replaced with yeah, backlit keyboard, glossy screens, large trackpads etc.

Problem is, Apple laptops are relatively inexpensive nowadays. I want a high-end consumer laptop with a metal body and backlit keyboard and large trackpad etc, I'll go and buy Apple, in Apple store, and walk out with a laptop in 11 minutes, without waiting for Lenovo to kindly ship it to me, maybe sometime in 3-4 weeks, if all goes well.

 

Things change, that's just a reality of life. You can bemoan or embrace it. My world view is when it's time for me to buy a new notebook, which won't be for a while, I'll evalute the options that are available at the time and pick the one that's the best fit. The last time and the seven times before that, it was a ThinkPad, but they'll have to earn my business the next time, just like before.

 

Zaz,

What would you but right now?

Renee

 

Good question. If I were to get an ultraportable right now, I'd probably get the X230. It's in my opinion the best ultraportable right now on balance. The IPS, durability, long battery life, cost, great keyboard(I'm not one of those in a tizzy about the new keyboard) and dual drives make it a winner for me. I like the HD resolution. It's easy to read and the stick is so easy to scroll on. I'd probably look at the Samsung Series 9 or maybe the 13" MBPr, but those are probably beyond what I'd like to spend.

If were going for a larger notebook, the T530 would be on my list. I'd take a look at the Sony S15 and HP dv6(z) too. $1,000 is probably my limit for a new notebook these days. Anything much beyond that wouldn't attract my attention.

 

Sometimes I think I'm the only happy customer around. Obviously, forums are going to bring out the best and worst comments about a company and its products, but I have no complaints about my W530. Granted, I'm coming from a different perspective than many others, in that this is my first Thinkpad, and I use it primarily for personal rather than business use. Still, it has lived up to all my expectations of it, and that's not a minor goal, considering I've been thinking about what I wanted from my "next computer" since 2008 or so.

It seems to me that the majority of people who want Lenovo to change their product strategy are from one of two camps (and I am going to use some hyperbole here to make a point). The first camp is the Thinkpad faithful that want everything back to the way things were when IBM made notebooks. Every change that's been made since those glory days is seen as a personal affront. The goal for these folks is to get things back to the way things were.

The second camp is the Apple fans who want all the notebooks to be thin and shiny with ever higher resolution screens. People in this camp are looking for a fashion statement that still has functionality. The goal is to have a Lenovo-branded iThing they can show off to their friends.

I think what Lenovo is doing right with their current models is balance. They have kept enough of the ThinkPad tradition that they are still selling systems with high build quality that perform well in a variety of use models. Yet the changes they have made attract a wider audience than IBM ever had.

In my opinion, the best thing Lenovo can do to improve its brand is maintain a greater presence in their top-selling locations. For instance, even though all (or most of) the components are made in China, Lenovo could ship a higher number of the major parts (chassis, motherboard, etc.) to their higher-selling destinations, allowing system assembly much closer to the destination. This would cut down on delivery time for new systems, as well as reducing repair time for existing products.

 

@djembe,

No, me too.

I think you are mostly right. Lenovo did very well in the past with changing some aspects of ThinkPads, but still maintain the general qualities, such as the best keyboard, docking-ports, the trackpoint, steel-hinges, matte screen etc.

If Lenovo improves some aspects, such as QC, naming of the product lines, factories in more countries (which they are doing right now in USA and Japan) and a better screens, the Think-brand has a bright future, even if they still change some aspects of ThinkPads (change, not remove).

 

+1

+1

+1

+1

+1

++1

+1 on the T530.

Also agreed on a $1k price limit.

 

True.

My way of embracing the Lenovo's change of keyboard layout equals saying "goodbye" to ThinkPads after well over a decade. Not something I had ever expected to happen, but c'est la vie...

 

" The problem I see with separating the Lenovo and Think lines is that it is not necessary."

Oh but it is necessary to measure profit.

Renee

 

Yes, but is it bad that lenovo is selling well? Although I don't think a split is necessary, I do think it will be good for the 'Think brand.' Some of my reason for optimism is that lenovo recognizes their success in the $900+ laptop market, much of which is driven by consumers and businesses buying higher-end ThinkPads.

Some people like ajkula66 will scoff at new changes but the fact is that lenovo's new laptops are better build quality, more efficient, and more useful/powerful than the laptops he so fondly remembers. The new keyboards are as capable as the old and I appreciate the functionality of the backlight. Also, I am still using my T61 but I have to admit the chassis flex is huge compared to any current W/T/X ThinkPads. This will also only get better with carbon fiber reinforced chassis.

Given lenovo's recent words on the transition, I think they've finally recognized the value of the high-end ThinkPad presence. They are investing in the high-end market and we will see the quality improvements we've been expecting all along. The X1C is the good start in my opinion. It's not a complete package (and thus I haven't purchased one for myself) but it is a good start. It looks and feels more like a high end camera or precision instrument and is blatantly both durable and elegant. Mate the benefits of the X230|T430|W530 with the X1C characteristics and you have a solid start. I just hope they don't try to make 50 different ThinkPad models, but rather 5 truly refined models.

 

The number of the consumer-bought Thinkpads was just negligible. But consumerization of ThinkPads is ongoing, and this annoys at least some of the untypical consumers and small businesses who bought Thinkpads precisely for Thinkpad business features, not present in a typical BestBuy laptop.

More efficient/powerful for dollar spent? Indeed, but so are the other similarly configured machines. The rest is really more of an opinion, not a fact. The screens become 16:9, even though Apple manages to keep them 16:10, and, while it is possible to accept the change and even find some advantages, it's not more efficient, nor more useful. The new keyboard is not nearly as capable as the old, if you rely on keyboard shortcuts that used the keys that were removed, or used the numpad functionality. And if every Lenovo laptop uses a unique keyboard layout, of course, you'd have to look a the keys when using the keyboard, but Thinklight worked just fine, and, unlike backlight, is useful to touch typists as well. eSATA? Gone, baby gone (USB3 is not a replacement).

And so on and so forth. Consumerization requires sacrifices. For example, laptop review sites typically use MacBooks as a reference point, so there has to be backlight and huge trackpad, keyboard layout, Trackpoint and business features be damned. Consumers were made believe, beyond any rational explanation, that laptop thickness when closed is the most important parameter? Say goodbye to replaceable battery. Glossy screen? Coming next, I'm sure. If not in next generation, in the one next to that. For viewing videos it's better, colors get more 'pop', and who needs the screen for something else but viewing Facebook and videos anyway?

 

Read: The inside story of Lenovo's ThinkPad redesign Its very interesting.

 

Well, we see it being acted upon. Get a bunch of people, average their needs and produce another average product. Macbook lovers may like it more but will buy their next device from Apple store anyway.

 

My summary for the redesign: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

They should be working on bringing the 16:10 AR back with a 1200p matte IPS option.

 

Yup.

I'm failing to see a reason to recommend these significantly consumerised models over a MacBook unless they're going to be used in situations where durability is important. Materials-wise, at least thinkpads still have that going for them. Little bit disheartening to hear they're going to do this to the entire range and not just ultrabooks like some here suggested.

 

Personally, I really can't stand clickpads. I've used a Macbook Pro, and the clickpad just drove me crazy. Now if the one on Macs is the best (as most industry folks say it is), I just want to opt out of the whole thing altogether. Give me physical mouse/trackpad buttons anyday. I'm glad I bought my W530 before they put out a version with a clickpad, no matter how long it took them to develop it with Synaptics. Hopefully in 5 years or so when I may next be looking for a new computer, clickpads will be out of fashion.

 

The new keyboards aren't bad, but it would make me second guess another ThinkPad as the automatic "go to" model. Now is the X230 still one of the best ultraportables on the market for the money? Yup. But the X230's keyboard and lack of upgrade performance over an X220, I would probably get an X220 over an X230.

 

Interesting indeed!

Nobody can deny the new ThinkPads are looking better than previous models: that thin bezel makes my T61's offset screen (to fit in the wifi antennaes) look like 1998. If lenovo came out with such a design now they would be laughed at.

After reading this, I think the new ThinkPad lineup will review well and sell well, so long as lenovo can figure out how to market it correctly. Lenovo has a lot going for it in China, even with phones (and possibly soon with redesigned tablets), but the difference and problem in the U.S. is the lack of in-store presence for the high-end ThinkPads. Most consumers currently see the low-end lenovo laptops and associate it with junk, which it is. Having the new Yoga in BestBuy is a start and I've experienced great reception to the quality item. But it's not a flagship product like the traditional laptops. The 'Think' brand needs it's own booth. Even if it's 1/4 the size of the Apple booth in BestBuy, the new ThinkPads have a chance at tearing apart the $900+ laptop market. If the new chassis function as well as they look, then I'll definitely upgrade.

 

OK, I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but now I have to set the record straight, for more-or-less obvious reasons...

You presume an awful lot for someone who doesn't know me from a hole in the wall, specifically:

a) You know which ThinkPads I currently own/use/support? Please share the knowledge - along with the source(s) - with this community.

b) You know which ThinkPads I "fondly remember"? See above.

While the new ThinkPads are obviously more powerful than the old ones, the QC aspect has been going down steadily over the past decade. I blame IBM - first and foremost - for this, Lenovo just did absolutely nothing to improve the state of affairs.

Some threads from LF referring to issues with recent (*20 series) machines:

Faint Ghosting on X220 IPS screen - Lenovo Community

W520 shuts off intermittently, no BSOD or shut dow... - Lenovo Community

Mind you, I happen to like both of these models, that just doesn't make me blind to the problems other users are reporting. I was the same way with the IBM-produced units.

And before we go into the old "people go to forums mostly to complain" routine...I've been a part of LF since before it was open to general public, and am very well capable of making a distinction between real and perceived problems.

I never said anything about the capabilities/functionality of the "new" keyboard. All I said was that it was a dealbreaker for me, because of the layout. If I have to learn to type all over again (which is why the backlight perk does absolutely nothing for me), I expect something in return. I'm not getting that "something" from Lenovo, but am from the competition. Time to move on.

While I have my gripes with the T61/p generation, chassis flex would not be one of them. I'd tend to believe that there's something physically broken within yours, or you're using an inappropriate term. Flexing these frames - unlike the older T4x/R5x ones - is next to impossible.

When IBM was building ThinkPads - which were far from perfect - the product line in question was ahead of the curve most of the time. Lenovo is behind the curve, trying to catch up with Apple. Steve Jobs - wherever he may be - is laughing his ar$e off.

Lenovo's customer service/ordering process is also nowhere near as error-free as IBM's was, and yes, I have purchased new ThinkPads from both.

As for the depot and other warranty entitlements...I always advise my customers to get on-site warranty, which is well-worth the extra $$$ since it's still handled by IBM. Quality of Flextronics-managed-depot repairs has been going down the tubes for quite some time now.

When IBM was building ThinkPads, every model line was a statement in its own right - not necessarily a likable one - but a statement nevertheless. Lenovo fails to achieve this 80% of the time. In all fairness, they did roll out several concepts (X30*, W70*, X1C) which could've been placed in line of having the same powerful vision as the old IBM ones had they only been executed properly, which none of them was. If you'd like me to elaborate on this statement, I'll be happy to.

@Tsunade_Hime:

My complaint about the "new" keyboard is tied to the change in layout, not to the quality of the keyboard per se. I'll agree that it's a very good island-style keyboard, likely the best in business. However, the new layout severely impedes my productivity while offering absolutely nothing in return. That's why I'm changing course after a very long time...

 

Quick question ajkula66, what are you buying for work and personal use now?

 

There's an (somewhat older by this forum's criteria) EliteBook with my name on it, awaiting for its current owner to upgrade.

Apart from that, my FrankenPads are still hanging tough, as are my ToughBooks...

Mulling over one last FrankenPad project, but have to verify that it's actually a doable venture before I dump a couple of grand in it just to be left with "poof"...

I just wanted a desktop replacement that could handle 32GB of RAM and sported a great screen, that's why I'm getting the HP...something that will run whatever I throw at it until support for W7 runs out, since my retirement should be just around the corner at that point in the game...

My "extra" ThinkPads should be cleared out by the end of the month, leaving just the skeleton of my former collection...

 

Since everyone else in the business has switched to a six row island style keyboard, you're going to have to learn a new one anyway. Why not start with the best?

It's kind of a struggle for Lenovo between keeping the old customers happy while attracting new ones and one or the other is not going to be happy.

 

Because the "old" keyboard was the only reason I was hanging on to ThinkPads, apart from trackpoint.

I'll sacrifice some of the keyboard quality in exchange for a vastly superior LCD of a desktop-replacement EliteBook.

 

Sorry I didn't mean to disrespect you ajkula66, just trying to play devil's advocate and get your opinion. It is interesting to me that nearly every new ThinkPad review I read mentions the 'die-hard IBM/ThinkPad power-users.' It truly does offer a critical perspective that laptops from other manufacturers simple don't have, and I like it. I also better understand your position on the keyboard layouts, but specifically what kind of work do you do that requires the extra couple rows? Coming from the T40/T61 eras to present, I don't see how it's a big deal (though I may being saying the same thing when I'm nearing retirement and they start using all touch or speech gestures ). I like the new 'buttonless' trackpads, for example, as I can and will adapt with new click habits. But lets say I don't like the buttonless style, isn't the weigt/size decrease and performance boost alone worth an upgrade from, say, a fully 5-buttoned T61 layout? (Oh, and the chassis flex in my T61 isn't necessarily the magnesium frame (which is solid and heavy!), but rather the outer plastics on near the palmrest/speakers; new designs such as the X1C do not have any flex in these regions).

You definitely are right about the QC issues, though I've had 5 absolutely flawless rigs thus far (knock on wood)...for lenovo/think laptops to take the spotlight in 2013/2014, it is critical that they perform to spec.

"In all fairness, they did roll out several concepts (X30*, W70*, X1C) which could've been placed in line of having the same powerful vision as the old IBM ones had they only been executed properly, which none of them was. If you'd like me to elaborate on this statement, I'll be happy to." - ajkula66

Please do explain. You don't think lenovo, with their current split operation, will better implement the X1C designs into the T440 and other coming laptops? Aside from the keyboard layout, what do or don't you like about the T431s shown in the linked articles above? Do you think lenovo is wrong in doing consumer observational studies, such as those described in the engadget article? What changes should they make on the upcoming T440 (I'm just using the T series as a reference)? Would you ever use a W540 if it met all your specs (everything except the keyboard), or wouldn't you even consider it?

 

6 rows is fine. But if you use any kind of "normal" keyboard together with laptop (and as of today, there is none from Lenovo with the layout matching the laptop), the different 'standard' block of Home/End/PgUp/PgDn is annoying.

More, software developers / system administrators / power users etc. know keyboard shortcuts. And some of the software expects the full 103 standard keys keyboard compatibility, which the old keyboard did have and the new one does not. In Windows, for example, getting to "System" properties quickly is Windows + Pause/Break. Software developers use Ctrl+Break many times daily, and "Menu" key is very useful in some applications. On the new keyboard Ctrl+Break becomes 3 button press (and you need to look in the manual to figure which one is it), and someone in Lenovo with very strange sense of humor replaced Menu key with PrintScreen. When a software has certain functions assigned to Gray+/-/* (like Midnight Commander, for example) you can't even press these with the new keyboard without connecting an external numpad (not exactly convenient when using the device as laptop). And so on, and so forth.

Yet there are hardly any space savings, the keyboard is still 7 rows on the right side. And Trackpoint, the best cursor navigation mechanism existing in laptops, which only IBM/Lenovo somehow managed to get right, is being dumped.

So what's special about Thinkpads nowadays, what is something in them that HP or Dell don't have? Yeah, Thinkpads are still black. Not for long: research would should that consumers only pretend to like black, but an average user (the one with one breast and one testicle) would much prefer a nice looking laptop with pink top and silver bottom, and a big blue Facebook button and a mirror built-in.

 

When you touch type on the same layout for well over a decade on a daily basis, it is a big deal when someone decides to eliminate parts of that layout...

I don't use a touchpad.

No problem.

X30* could've been a "MacBook Air killer" (which I believe the original intent behind it was) if it had:

a) A better screen than a Mac and not a substantially worse one

b) A properly designed cooling system

W70* could've been the ultimate workstation of all times - not a top seller, but a statement in its own right - if it, once again, sported a proper LCD. You don't design a behemoth aimed at professionals working in the graphics industry without an IPS/AFFS panel, especially not at the price tag that these things carried when new. You look around, find the best panel on the market and then order a better one.

X1C would've been a great machine without a trackpoint and ThinkPad insignia. Its internal design just screams "I'm not a ThinkPad".

I'm done with Lenovo and personally don't care whether they go to # 1 spot and stay there forever or file bankruptcy within a year. I'll never use a ThinkPad with the current keyboard layout, regardless of its specs.

 

Pretty much in agreement with ajkula66 here about the Thinkpad brand. While I haven't used Thinkpads as long as he (or other NBR members) have (first being a W520), the very reason why I got a Thinkpad was because of the keyboard/TrackPoint layout. I couldn't care less about what the barely-informed Joe and Jane Smith know about computers and how they want them to be; I didn't want an island-style keyboard and I don't want to be reduced to using a touchpad, no matter how "good" they are (much rather use a cheap mouse in that case).

Thinkpads, first and foremost, are business machines. No nonsense, no care for how people think they look. Hell, there are those who even think that the boring black box is beautiful (I wouldn't go that far, but it does look classy and I wouldn't be embarrassed to show up at an important meeting with a Thinkpad). These machines were built to get things done, and to get things done efficiently (IBM poured *a lot* of research into the keyboard/mouse input for the Thinkpad line). But now... now for some reason Lenovo's messing up the Thinkpad line in my eyes.

First thing that bothered me was getting rid of the back/forward keys (left/right of the Up Arrow key), which slowed me down when doing research while using the W530 (reducing productivity, for strike one in my book). At least in that generation of Thinkpad, the TrackPoint was still mostly in tact and the keyboard, while island-style, still felt better than others. Except for the fact that Lenovo screwed up the keyboard layout when going to the 6-row keyboard. I'm personally not bothered by the concept of a 6-row keyboard instead of a 7-row, but who signed off on that keyboard? Print Screen near the Space bar? Are you kidding me? There were other issues with that keyboard that bothered me as well, which can be found in my review of that laptop. So strike two for me. Now, we have "Thinkpads" that put more focus on the touchpad (less productive) than the TrackPoint; a great example of this is the middle button: where did it go? Strike three for me. And like ajkula66, my next laptop will very likely not be a Thinkpad, even though I love my W520 and X61t. If Lenovo (sorry, "Think") keeps up this consumerization of the Thinkpad lineup, I'd much rather consider a Latitude or an Elitebook. At least they know what business use is all about. their only real fault imo is that their track points aren't very good, but I can just buy a pack of Thinkpad TrackPoints for a few bucks and easily fix that. But you can't fix consumer-class build designs.

It doesn't matter how many units you sell towards a goal of "#1 laptop seller", if the quality of the laptop drops as a compromise to get into the numbers game, it's pretty much garbage. I mean, look at HP, which was #1 in selling laptops for a number of years. Would any of you say that the Pavilion's quality was superb? Dell and HP Business might not be the #1 laptop sellers, but their machines gets stuff done, without becoming gimmicky like Thinkpads are turning out to be today and in the future (assuming Lenovo/Think doesn't correct themselves and realize what the actual market for Thinkpads are).

 

I thought X30* did not sell well because of their high prices. Oh well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

I wasn't talking about pricing/sales, but about executing concepts. Two entirely different aspects.

On a different note - and in reference to your statement above - MBA, when introduced, wasn't exactly a bargain basement proposal either...

 

Well, I should probably clarify there. Yeah, Dell and HP have been moving towards consumerization as well. However, Dell and HP also offer some other stuff that can be worth switching over; for example, I'm pretty disappointed that Lenovo hasn't offered a FirePro GPU for their workstations (I'd rather have a FirePro than the Quadro 2000M I currently have and paid a lot of money for). The Elitebook's construction is pretty great as well, probably even surpassing the Thinkpad's. And Latitudes/Precisions can be had for less money than an equivalent Thinkpad while maintaining most, if not all, the build quality.

And if this consumerization continues to the point where there's barely any difference between consumer and business laptops, why stick to business laptops anymore? Hell, with the way things are going, Apple's starting to look somewhat attractive, and this is coming from someone who very much dislikes Apple's business policies.

I absolutely hate, and am against, the consumerization of the business sector, and **ESPECIALLY** BYOD, but that's a different rant...

 

Excuse me, for quoting you, as the question wasn't directed to me, but here are my two pennies worth to answer it, not definitively for the T440 but for the Thinkpad line as a whole. Per my sig, I own a W520.
So, what changes should they make?

- IPS option with all the models
- 16:10
- 1440x900 for 12", 1680x1050 for 14", 1920x1200 for 15"
- Better QC as some have mentioned
- Cooling needs a major redesign (primarily on the W series to fully utilize the potential of quad cpus and dedicated graphics)
- A variant with more powerful mainstream gpus, for those who buy them as desktop replacements
- Advances in materials used, eg: more light weight metals, new alloys (good for you, good for me, good for them, to build marketing babble around it)
- With the above: even more rigidity, less chassis flex
- No departure from the old aesthetic.
- No departure from the TrackPoint with dedicated buttons
- No features taken away mid way (1600-1866 ram on the w520 an example)
- The old keyboard, and I don't mean the 20 series, this was already inferior to the old IBM ones. Although I could settle for the new ones if everything else met the specs I wanted.
- For connectivity: an extra HDMI port while keeping the DisplayPort as well
- L shaped pw connector
- Faster ExpressCard slot for eGPU systems (although I am not sure if this is possible at this point)


I probably missed something, but there.

 

I'd add the following:

- Give us the option for FirePro GPUs in the W series
- Proper TrackPoint setup (seriously, why get rid of the middle button? Stupid, if you ask me)
- Bring back the Back/Forward keys
- Stay on Windows 7 for now (maybe Lenovo will switch to Win8 only, but I'm not sure about this)

----------------------

With the way Lenovo is going, I personally wouldn't buy a W540 or other -40. I'd look for other business-class laptops that meet my requirements, since I don't want to support a company that doesn't support features I want. I like the current Latitudes more than the current Thinkpads, for example.

 

Well, thats misinformation. The middle button is still there, and it will stay there. If you look closely on the new TouchPad, you can even see the small dots for the middle-button.

No, as I heard from Lenovo they will stay with Windows 7 on many ThinkPads (With Win 8 Recovery-Disks and key in the UEFI) as long as Microsoft provide them the licenses for Windows 7 (and they will maybe until 2014-2015).

But I don´t know where this hate on Windows 8 comes from. Its clearly better than Windows 7, but thats only my opinion.

 

I'd say this is due to the FirePros lacking certain ISV certs and CUDA, but fair point nonetheless, the more, the merrier.

 

You mean using Start8, disabling hotspots and the modern UI right?

 

Have AMD finally got their Optimus-like technology working in FirePro cards? In 2013 laptop should really last 5-6 hours in typewriter mode, even W series, and w/o switchable graphics it's not likely.

My requests to Lenovo are quite simple:

- Do whatever you want with keyboard, but keep the old layout available as option as the time of purchase. Or, at least, post-purchase, with an appropriate CRU available. It's not hard at all, it's almost working already.
- Make the old trackpoint, with buttons, available as option. If that means no trackpad at all in that version, even better.
- Add touch screen option into T/W series, which used to be there in W510.
- Produce an external keyboard, with exactly the same layout as laptop including the Trackpoint. If it's wireless, make sure that there is a version of it that is NOT BlueTooth (which is a complete disaster from security standpoint, and is not supported in Server OS-es for example)

If this is done, and the rest isn't broken, I don't really have a choice but to buy a Thinkpad as next laptop

 

Lenovo already sells a wired Thinkpad keyboard: ThinkPad USB Keyboard with TrackPoint - US English | Lenovo | (US)

Not sure if their wireless version is Bluetooth or not, however.

 

The end was nigh for business-class notebooks once the T430/T530 series came out, fewer indicator lights, loss of the classic keyboard/row layout has done enough damage to the image of owning a Thinkpad. Each redesign of the trackpad has gotten more annoying, when it was enlarged they added a stupid texture and now they're aiming at pulling an Apple of no trackpad buttons... I sense next year the trackpoint will go the way of the dodo. Lenovo has no clue how to keep the brands split apart, seems they never learned what Daimler had done to Chrysler... sadly I think we've already reached a point of Lenovo consumer machines being shoved into a Thinkpad X/T-series shell. IBM learned the "Z" series wasn't very popular, squishing together consumer features into Thinkpad hardware was more or less of why you should mix an X & T series together.

I hate to say it my next notebook will be an Apple MacBook Pro, if I wanted Apple stuff I'd buy a Mac... if I want a Thinkpad I expect the usual features and avoiding stupid "consumer-ized features". At the moment you can barely tell the difference between a Thinkpad, Latitude & EliteBook... in one way or another they're trying to sneak Apple-like design schemes and still fail at it. Biggest upside for Apple notebooks is their speakers are decent enough due to a mini-subwoofer like 3rd speaker. (I've never been impressed with any Thinkpad on the sound front, ugh!)

 

Yes, and I use it, but it's the old layout, from xx10/xx20 series. There is supposedly a new Thinkpad wireless keyboard coming sometime later, but no wired option so far.

 

My thought about the Air and the X1 Carbon LCDs, having used both extensively, is how similar they were. The Air is obviously glossy, but both offer good color and a nice sweet spot for the angles, though not IPS like. The X1C was a bit blue, but that can be mitigated with calibration.

I can't speak to the QC issues being that I've only some of the newer notebooks and I'm not sure that seeing only a few lets me make broad generalizations, but I consider my X220i to as good as any ThinkPad I've used as were the X230, T430 and X1C. Sure the T430 screen is average, but that's not out of context historically. There doesn't seem to be significantly more complaints about QC issues than in the past. I seem to recall IBM producing their fair share of duds too.

Everyone can speak to their opinion of what Lenovo's doing wrong, whether it's the new keyboard, lack of better screens or why they're not offering a 12" ultraportable with a 650GT GPU, but Lenovo has to look at things in the aggregate and decide what's the best way forward. As usual where people are involved, someone's going to be unhappy. For whatever reason, whether it's using studies, through customer feedback or something else, they've decided to go in a different direction. I can't say I'm 100% happy either, but when it comes time to buy my next notebook, which probably won't be for a while, I'll evaluate the candidates and pick the one that best meets my needs. That's about all one can do and Lenovo's going to to what they're going to do.

Funny you should mention the USB keyboard, I just bought one. I have the same keyboard in my X220i, but it was not the same using it on the desktop. For one, it felt a little bargain-basement for a $60 product. Because it was more flexy than my X220i version, it was not as nice to type on. I kind of knew going in there was a pretty good chance I'd return it because I'd be missing the 10-key and the center mouse click button, which I really like, but I didn't think I'd return it because it felt low grade.

 

Sure, it's not the same as the laptop keyboard. It's different mechanically and internally (scan codes for some keys are different, for example, unlike the laptop keyboard, the Forward/Back keys cannot be remapped). However, small feel differences aside, using the laptop docked pretty much requires an external keyboard, and once used to Trackpoint - it's really hard to go back to mouse. $60 is actually not a bad price for something that has virtually no competition. Also, it was one of few areas where Lenovo improved things: I also have the more expensive (and older, still IBM branded) SK-8845 with Ultranav, and it's considerably worse than S55Y9003 R00. And the S55Y9003 R01 version is a bit better than R00 I used to have.

In xx20 era, when Lenovo didn't produce a new keyboard layout for every Thinkpad model, you could have used T520 in dock in the office, get it out of the dock and do some work when travelling, and then pick up an X220 and still type, and use keyboard shortcuts, and move mouse cursor using the exact same reflexes.

Moving forward and changing direction is great and inevitable. But Lenovo is moving backwards. Laptop is, generically speaking, a keyboard, a mouse cursor navigation device, a screen and a battery to keep it all alive for some time. The first two parts were excellent, the last two average. What Lenovo does? Improves the screens? Nope, changes the first two, the most conservative features, to the average too (PC keyboard 100-something keys layout has not changed much in 30! years, and mouse from 1992 is not very different either).

Worse, not only they change them, they change them at random, and many times. Research? Engineering? Throwing dice, at best. Who does ThinkPad T400s: Key to a Better Experience - Design - Lenovo Blogs , and then, in just 2 years, does with the keyboard and trackpoint what they have done?

 

It looks the same to me, but the difference is the casing the desktop version is in is not as sturdy as the laptop. As a result it's not as nice to type on.