Lenovo quality, the facts are against it?

Hi all,

Being a Thinkpad fan I keep researching the developments. Since my T400 is going to be replaced by a X300 I was wondering what other users think about this wonderful machine, apart from the ‘expert’ reviews which are mainly very positive.
After doing some research I came to the somewhat surprising conclusion that there are quite a few of complaints regarding Thinkpad products. Mainly these are about failures and the lack of Lenovo support. And with quite a few I mean more than the complaints concerning several other brands, even Acer! Let me give you some numbers:

Lenovo

Thinkpad t61

37% negative (217 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop-reviews/lenovo-thinkpad-t61/pu3-78107375,30/

31 procent negative (115 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opinions.asp?productFamilyID=960&pid=11143

Thinkpad x300

24% negative (105 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop-reviews/lenovo-thinkpad-x300/pu3-53950762,30/

40 % negative (only 5 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opinions.asp?productFamilyID=1131&pid=0

Thinkpad x200

26% negative (28 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop-reviews/lenovo-thinkpad-x200/pu3-61468340,30/

50% negative (10 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opinions.asp?productFamilyID=1195&pid=165976

thinkpad x61

24% negative (28 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop-reviews/lenovo-thinkpad-x61-tablet/pu3-60496757,30/

34,5% (29 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opinions.asp?productFamilyID=1000&pid=184


Asus

Eee 1000 series
10% negative (630 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/net...he-1000ha-1000hd-1000h-1000/pu3-60295870,354/

Eee older serie
0% negative (18 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opinions.asp?productFamilyID=1047&pid=17912


Acer

Aspire one

20% negative (108 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/netbook-mini-laptop/acer-aspire-one/pu3-60666722,354/

8% negative (49 users)
http://www.notebookreview.com/price/opinions.asp?productFamilyID=1207&pid=158937


Apple

MacBook Pro

9% negative (2287 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop-reviews/apple-macbook-pro-core-2-duo-2007/pu3-45980465,30/

15% negative (1492 users)
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/laptop-reviews/apple-macbook-air-early-2008/pu3-53913647,30/


The negative percentage doesn’t always mean the same, but it’s a clear negative in terms of function, failure or support. Check out for yourself. The comparisons are fair, because for the different laptops I’ve used the same numbers.

So what is a justifiable conclusion? I was under the impression that, when it comes to quality/reliability, the Thinkpad series as a business line notebook is top of the bill. Professional reviewers seem to agree with that and often refer to Lenovo as being a reliable manufacturer. This paradox may be explained by the fact that these professional reviewers only work with the Thinkpad for a short period of time, while end users like you and me get the real deal.

Thus it seems it’s time to give in to the fact that Thinkpad/Lenovo does not belong to the premium class anymore in terms of reliability?

 

Interesting- I actually like my Lenovo T61P a lot, but recently the trackpoint and trackpad both died.

 

Wouldn't N need to be bigger than just a few dozen votes for any serious conclusions?

 

I agree. But where to find greater numbers? These numbers are the only numbers I can find/rely on.

Nevertheless I think 100+ and even 1000+ numbers are big enough for conclusions.

 

I wouldn't really count on these as accurate, as the people with problems usually are the ones to complain. People whose products work expect it and won't go around forums to talk about it usually.

 

Yes but that counts for every brand. It doesn't influence this comparison.

Asus, Apple, Acer and Lenovo users expect their laptop to function and when it fails, they complain. It's all the same.

 

I think that's Swiss cheese.

 

Interesting. Thanks. I wasn't aware of alatest.com

I am wary of small sample sizes, and calculating confidence intervals does give an indication of the uncertainty. For example, alatest.com for X200 had a sample size of 28 and a disapproval rating of 25% (can't be 26%--26% of 28 isn't a whole number). The 95% confidence interval for this ranges from 10.69% to 44.87% (see: http://www.measuringusability.com/wald.htm ). Well, 10.69% to 44.87% is a pretty large interval ! (Obviously, if you are content with lesser confidence, the interval will be smaller).

What I would be more worried about is a systematic bias in the sample. The people who will take the time to review Acer computers clearly aren't the same as those who review Thinkpads, and aren't the same as those who review Apples. And this says nothing about what each group considers to be acceptable levels of reliability or support. Is it possible that users and reviewers of business computers have higher expectations ? I think so.

 

You just can't draw any meaningful inferences from that data. Sorry.

Not in absolute terms because, as others mentioned, internet reviewers are not randomly distributed among all users. People who review online are more likely to be doing so because they're upset. It's also probable that they have higher standards.

Nor in relative terms, because perceptions of quality are not randomly distributed among all notebook purchasers. People who spend more for their machine and people who purchase "business" machines are probably holding their machines to different standards than people who purchase inexpensive notebooks for home use (like an expensive toaster).

There are sampling problems everywhere you look.

edit: Drat. beaten by 6 minutes

Just because you can't use online user surveys for scientific comparison, it doesn't mean they're useless. By all means use them as a diagnostic. If you notice that lots of early users of (say) the Studio XPS 13 are going ballistic about heat, then follow up on it. Was there substance to the complaints? If so, was anything done about it? Think of those surveys as fire alarms.

 

Although not totally favorable to Lenovo, I would be more inclined to accept the results from PC World or PC Magazines studies--at least they have consistent criteria regarding scoring (if not the sample).

As an example:



See: http://www.pcworld.com/article/156450/apple_laptops_extend_their_lead_in_reliability.html

But even here, no distinction is made between business and consumer notebooks. Do I really believe HP business notebooks are as bad as this would indicate ? No, not at all.

And if the sample includes notebooks of all ages, naturally a company (such as Acer) that has recently dramatically increased its marketshare will be over represented by newer models--which should not be suffering from old age failure.

 

IMO that's a terrible collection of statistics to compare. Factor in the psychology of various brand buyers and the different prices/capabilities/sizes of the machines, and I don't think you can read much into them at all.

Macbook -- most (not all) mac buyers fall into the fanboy group and tend not to know a great deal about hardware. Moreover, when you're paying top dollar for a machine that is branded as "cool" you're far less likely to complain because you're, well, too cool to admit you screwed up!

Asus eePC -- not sure I'd rank this as a "real" computer exposed to the same critical useage as a Thinkpad. It's a netbook and cute at that -- what is there to complain about? Small machine, small expectations.

Acer -- similar to Asus comment above -- small, cheap and not really up there with the big boys of the laptop world.

Thinkpad users tend to be far more critical that others in my experience (because Thinkpads are (or used to be) regarded as the best business-class computer out there) and when you factor in the IBM to Lenovo transition that occured in the T61/X61 era then you tapping into a time that they're gonna be even more critical than usual. Justified or not? Who knows when you have to factor in the psychological implications of a trusted computer maker changing hands?

I'm incredibly critical of my Thinkpads. Complain and moan like mad when I get my latest. A few months later I realize most of my gripes are silly and the machine is better than virtually anything else I could have bought for the price. I've also only had one hardware failure in a decade of owning five different thinkpads.

IMO if you want to really compare complaints then pick business machine makers, modals in similar price ranges and from the new "all Lenovo" era onwards. I'd suggest Dell, HP Elite etc.

For example, compare the Asus, Acer Aspire One, and Lenovo S10 (all Atom-powered netbooks around the same size/price) and the Lenovo does very well with negative ratings similar to the other two.

 

Thanks for the intelligent and insightful replies so far (including MidnightSun down under..).

@SpacemanSpiff, too bad your math is not very understandable to me. That may also be due to the language barrier there is for me..

But it’s obvious what the general criticism/relativism about these numbers is. I’m too much comparing apples to oranges to be able to make any conclusions. There are too much variables. It would be more accurate to compare business notebooks from other brands. Also a 1500 dollar laptop cannot be compared to a 600 dollar laptop, for several reasons.

To a certain level I agree with this, soI will certainly make some better comparisons (just for fun ).

For example, as pipspeak mentioned, fact is that indeed the Ideapad has a better ‘review factor’:
http://alatest.com/user-reviews/netbook-mini-laptop/lenovo-ideapad-s10-s10e/pu3-62406577,354/

Edit: here's one typical review that's worth mentioning...: "Love my lenovo s10 so much i could eat it."

 

I would tend to agree in this case.

Several problems:
1.- All these numbers of complaints are inflated. Only people with problems will go on forums and complain, and those people are likely more technologically-adept. Also, Thinkpad users as a whole are more technologically-adept when compared to, say, the whole Eee PC user base.
2.- The sample size is extremely small in the grand scheme of things.
3.- Different standards for different classes of laptops. You'll be much more critical of your $2000+ laptop that you just bought than a $200 netbook.
4.- Unavoidable variations in the populations who buy the laptops. To get accurate results, you will have to supply a large population with the same set of laptops, and compare reliability and satisfaction that way.

So, no, unfortunately I do not see any conclusion that can really be drawn from this data.

 

If you're right (and I think to a certain level you are), in this case I would call that rather fortunate

 

Haha, true

 

thinkpads tend to be better than a lot of the other manufacturers. i personally havent even give any other manufacturers any consideration for my laptop purchases.

however it will be silly to ignore the fact other manufacturers are catching up very quickly. back a couple of years ago when laptops were still novel and out of reach of the mass population, thinkpads were well above the competition in quality. this is no longer true because competitors are catching up very quickly. e.g. dell's corporate class notebooks are very high quality and have the style and demeanor of thinkpads as being no fuss no fanciness workhorse machine. i surely hope thinkpads remain true to the sort of quality we had trusted to expect from them in the past. and this will certainly mean accepting no level of mediocrity. i cant even stress that such issues as keyboard flex, long delivery times, customer service, etc - should not even be an issue at all. anybody who blindly overlooks these issues are not doing the thinkpad line any justice because they are willfully ignorant and accepting of mediocrity that will end up hurting the brand in the long run because other brands who are willing to tackle the issues truthfully will end up doing better. its like racism, you can ignore racism or you can openly discuss it to hopefully move forward as a nation/humanity.

on the other hand i see a lot of people who are against the brand are doing so because of racist/nationalistic reasons because the company financing the thinkpad line is a chinese company, even though the design team remains the same as it was before (i.e. designed in the states and japan). interestingly we are today accepting of sony and japanese products yet the japanese were our enemies in ww2, which is perhaps a generational thing influenced by media.

 

Your critical judgement is good, it means you were "spoiled", or used to a good quality laptop and you're expecting close to perfection on your next machine, which fortunately still holds true with Lenovo.