Lenovo versus HP ... a gamble

I have come to a decision to buy an HP instead of Lenovo. I looked at all the pro and cons and have decided I just cannot live with a crap screen on otherwise an excellent laptop. I had thought to buy a X200 Tablet but starting at over 1,800 Euros well it's out of my range. So I have decided to buy an HP5310m with an anti-glare screen. A friend has one and I must say I was impressed, especially given the fact it costs about 500 Euros. For extended travel I will stick to a Samsung NC10, for mails, movies etc it is fast enough, light and 7 hour battery. I understand HP may break but hey I am taking a gamble ... had enough of a brand that does not really care about providing quality all around and charges ridiculous prices for it. I saw an X200 in person this week and the screen (LED) is just sorry ... crap. I saw a Probook 5310m and the screen is well just really nice ... so there you have it. I will report in the HP section after a month or so how the probook goes... happy computing to you all !

 

that is pretty cheap, but you get what you pay for....a hp

 

Well it does have excellent reviews from both experts and users ... and your X200 T costs over 2,000 Euros here ... maybe if I could have a look at at tablet in real life I would still change my mind. But there is another factor I need to think about. For work I need to travel to some really poor areas so I rather have a netbook stolen off me than a fully fledged X200 T LOL ... I would have liked a X200s but cannot deal with the screens so no option really. Time and again I bump into the same thing ... much cheaper computers than Lenovo having much better screens. And after all the screen is what I look at all day so it is rather important. I don't understand people who claim to love their Lenovo but they really dislike the screen ... I mean what do those people do with their laptops ? Fish ?

 

That's a valid concern, it would be terrible to have a $2,000 laptop stolen. If you do buy an expensive laptop or take one to a poor area you could do what Kevin did with his ThinkPad and put some crappy looking bumper stickers on it to make it look cheap and old:



That was a new ThinkPad Z-series made to look cheap. If you're on a college campus and don't want to be a target, it's actually a good idea.

Good luck with the HP, it's still a good choice IMHO and makes sense as a compromise for the budget and if the screen is your most important factor maybe it's best for you.

 

Some people also say they could live with laptops that are prone to breaking, if it is cheap enough... what are these people going to do with a laptop if it breaks? Fishing could be something that person does, if that happens.

Quality is a relative term, not great doesn't mean it is not usable. If you can accept a laptop that has a better screen with a not so reliable hardware driving it.... then why can't other people accept a slightly lower quality screen with a more reliable hardware?

I guess this is a trade off....

 

most (young) people would not think that a thinkpad is worth stealing anyway. they look too old fashioned to them. thieves rather want something like a macbook.

plus there is always going to be a development curve with newer technology, led is relative new

 

Yes I do accept it may give up on me ... like I said it's a gamble. But the Lenovo would be a much more expensive gamble. T400 I bought has a screen that gave me instant headaches as you already know. So if the X200/X201 does the same I am out of pocket twice... see there are no generous return options in this part of the world ! And I cannot work at the a laptop I cannot look at LOL. Yes your comments on hardware and poor customer service are warranted. I have had experiences with HP before but never have bought a Pro Book one .... reviews say they are really good

 

Hey, perfectionseeker, perhaps wait another month and see how good the new HP Elitebook 2540p is?
Just sayin...

 

Shouldn't this be in the HP forum...?

I would also wait to check out the 2540p if I were you. Their CTO models are way too expensive though.

 

It's very unfortunate that the LED screen irritates your eyes whereas it's fine for almost everyone out there.

 

Brilliant idea!

 

One of the biggest reasons I personally prefer ThinkPads is their bland look. As a college student, I don't have to worry at all about my laptop being stolen, because the average person would think that it was straight out of the 90s (which the design is).

As for the build quality, ThinkPads are definitely the best. I had an HP laptop before I got my ThinkPad, and it had problems with hardware malfunctioning right from the start.

 

I have had an HP lemon before as well ... as I said I hope their pro book business line is somewhat better. I am still trying to find out if the LED screens on the X201 series are different to the LED on the later X200 series. In the UK it says "new" next to the screen options, but it looks the same to me. Noone has found an answer to that yet on here as far as I am aware. I have looked at Sony as well but they are as expensive as Lenovo, very similar here. My biggest problem is my sensitivity to certain screens, so I need to move to a country where you use it for 30 min pack it up again and send it back. In the Uk there are a few vendors who allow that but none sell Lenovo X201.

 

as i've said before, the displays are the same.   parts information is readily available in the hardware maintenance manual.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=5887310&postcount=7

 

Ok thanks .. sorry I missed that somehow since it still says "new" next to the screens...well that shelves my buying a Lenovo at this point in time. maybe with the next up-date they change the screens because they run out of the old ones.

 

Personally i don't understand why Lenovo doesn't have the "performance" ThinkPads anymore, (p next to the number), i guess the W series is supposes to suffice but couldn't they come out with a T410p that would have a workstation card, SSD, better screen, and perhaps more RAM as standard (just bringing up what components the "p" ThinkPad variations usually had better than the standard models).

 

variations that only some people want don't exactly equal company profit ... there is most of your reason. And this is probably true across the board, not only Lenovo. The best and most reliable laptops I have had are a 2001 Sony Vaio (had a great screen), a Toshiba Portege 205 (slow but still typing on it right now, 5 years later), T61 Lenovo (though very dim screen and way too heavy to travel, and for some reason a fair bit faster than the latest addition a T400 with Windows 7 Pro),

 

That isn't exactly true. Having a wide range of variations that are EASILY understood within the whole product line's context is a very good idea.

It is just confusing when you have more than a couple main lines of laptops. But most customers aren't going through each spec like we do.

 

You know what you are getting, you have seen the screen quality, so it is not a gamble per se (it is more like an expensive trade off according to you). Also, in many countries outside of Europe, the price difference between thinkpads and HP elitebook or Probook is not that great.

 

Lead Org a gamble as far as the hardware is concerned. I am looking for a place in UK with a 7 day return policy before I spend 500 Euros. It would cost me about 20 Euros to give it back. I would even try a 1,200 Euros X201 if I could find one with a return policy. I had a look at the Sony Vaio Z series which is probably the nicest design I have seen on a laptop for a while, and the screen is really great. completely different league to my T400. Of course I would need 30 min in front of it to see if my eyes like it. So again I am hunting for a company that sells it with a 7 day change your mind send it back policy. Heck I would get the Hp, Lenovo, Sony ... and send 2 back and write reports on all of them in a new thread: Laptops for people with eyestrain & sensitive eyes

PS: To the moderators, could a category like that be created? Many people are sensitive to particular screens or even generally sensitive to the radiation output of a laptop. Some brands fair better than others. Maybe if in the general notebook a new category could be created where those people including myself could swap experiences and ideas ?

 

this is why some people use WXGA screen in 15.4 format and XGA in 15 inch format. My lecturer use to put his 17 inch LCD at 800 x 600 resolution, because his eyesight is not that good, and prefer reading large fonts rather than small fonts all day.

 

Sorry to repeat myself Lead Org. My eye sight has been tested, and it's almost 20/20, so in theory I almost would qualify to be fighter pilot, and I am 35 years old. So nothing is wrong with my eyes. I repeat, LED screens of abject quality work at lower frequency when not at full brigthness, the Lenovo screens at about 90 Hz or so. Some people's retinas pick up this "flicker" (yes LED screens have flicker) and as a result get headaches. Other people are simply sensitive to laptops in general because of radiation pollution however small it is, just like some 4% of people are sensitive to mobile phones of all kinds. Yes I have that sensitivity as well, not made for a technology age but cannot work without it. So It is about finding and testign those brands and models of laptops that simply work better for people with this particular problem. As I can see from your computer collection you are obviously not sensitive to any sort of screen or laptop, and that is great for you. I guess the only query I would have is WHY so many laptops when you can only use 1 at the time ? Baffles me unless you have sold most and kept 2.

 

i am not doing any sort of graphic work nor do i watch many movies on them (if i really need to watch HD movies, there is always the Dell 2408WFP for that or the 50 inch Plasma TV. I only use my laptop for word processing, spreadsheet, hysys, web surfing etc, none of which requires a particular high quality LCD.

To answer your other question regarding owning that many laptops.... because i can afford them... and i enjoy collecting engineering marvels. And yes i do own all of them concurrently at this very moment.

 

You seem to be asked this question quite frequently!

 

I'm sorry to hear about your eye issues. No one here has mentioned IPS (and in Thinkpad speak: Flexview High Density) screens. I just sold my W700 which has 2xCCFL @ 400nits (no LED, but the W701 will have it), no IPS on either machine. Isn't IPS especially friendly on the eyes?

I'm actually going to wait beyond the W701's release to see what Steve Jobs meant by "...we'll have a significant update for our MacBooks coming soon...", when he was asked about his aging MacBook line last month. Mac's run Windows 7 flawlessly, so if they become the first to include IPS back into laptops, I might just do it, although I was really hoping for a better LCD on the W701. What do you all think about that (radical?) idea? And what's with this HP Elitebook 2540p? What's so elite about it?

As for the nostalgic part of this thread. lol...I'm currently typing on my Thinkpad T60p w/ S-IPS. Almost 4 years old, has been around the world, through many airports and on many plane trips, including transatlantic ones. I just graced it with a brand new keyboard and a fresh layer of silver paste and it's as good as new.

 

I doubt they'll use IPS screens in any notebook anymore...

 

yes, and we're still waiting to see a photo of everything together.

"$how us your Thinkpad$"

 

I haven't had any luck with the consumer models of HP crap..
Or Toshiba for that matter..

 

IPS screens well one can hope ... unfortunately most laptop buyers are average consumers who check their e-mail do some chatting and then watch TV ... what I am saying is not many people "have" to spend 4-5 hours a day on their laptops. I do and therefore I require a screen that agrees with me, nothing more to it. I loathe HP bloatware and I really do not particularly like HP as a brand but never had a ProBook and the reviews are very positive. Someone mentioned Fujitsu having good screens, any particular model ? I think I may Ebay sell the T400 I got to recover some money...

 

"IPS screens well one can hope ... unfortunately most laptop buyers are average consumers who check their e-mail do some chatting and then watch TV ... what I am saying is not many people "have" to spend 4-5 hours a day on their laptops. I do and therefore I require a screen that agrees with me, nothing more to it. "

Yes and it's getting so that the people who know computers and who deal with them professionally can only get the mediocre notebook.

Renee

 

@Crunchdude: HP's business lines (elitebooks, probooks, ...compaq) are better. I only have personal experience with the Elitebooks (and a few compaqs but those are consumer grades sales too).

The elitebooks are well built, but I don't like the keyboards or the HP version of the trackpoint. Can't go as light either on the 12inch models. The lowest 12inch elitebook is starting at like 3.37lbs.

 

@ Renee yes completely right. Not a single manufacturer seems to be able to combine durability, good keyboard, long battery life, silent operation AND a good screen at an affordable price. Lenovo I must admit is close ... but that screen. I thought businesses have meetings with all the heads of departments to determine how to improve a product. Would you believe that at Lenovo noboby puts their hand up and says: erhh well, I think we need to improve our screens, and offer more options for professional people. After all we are marketing a premium product... Agree on Elite Books .. too heavy. I would only get a probook for office and local travel. International travel I don't need to do any presentations, just need it to communicate etc, so a netbook is fine though I would prefer an X200s with a great screen. Apparently the new Elitebook weighs 1.4 KG, about 3.3 pounds.

As far as my sensitivity to screens is concerned I am putting it out there again to the moderators if a category could be created for people with sensitive eyes, etc. I bet there would be more posts in there than one would think...

 

Perfectionseeker,

I don't think you really know what the professional business market is. Most are not workstation uses. Most do not require goods screens, otherwise the market would move to it in hordes.

Also you can't have all the options and have it be affordable. Though that being said all your requirements, even lacking an affordable price tag, don't really exist either.

 

That type of request should go in Site Suggestions, Help and Announcements

 

i am just wondering how many percentage of the population have sensitivity to the LED screen? maybe if the number is large enough, lenovo can then have enough incentive to come with a different screen

 

There are too many potential causes of users getting headaches from LED backlit screens. Modulating the led's to save power, dithering, flickering when brightness is reduced and all sorts of other potential causes.

The time and r&d it would take to develop a screen that eliminated every possible cause for eye strain isn't worth it financially to cater to the small percentage of people who suffer from it. Especially considering that most of those people would rather just put up with it than pay more, and so a fraction of those people would actually shell out the cash for that screen. The percentage of people who are suffering AND willing to pay would have to be significantly high for any company to even consider the proposal.

I doubt it will ever happen. Higher quality screens may start appearing again, but higher quality screens still flicker. The eye strain may be postponed but not remedied.

 

Well it i strange though that I do not have the problem with older CCFL screens ... any explanation for that? I also do not get it with a Samsung NC10 Netbook which also uses LED. I researched it and apparently different screens flicker at different frequencies, hence I need to find a frequency that agrees with my retina. Only option I have it seems is to buy 3-4 notebooks and compare and send the rest back for a refund. THAT is a problem around here ... I would gladly lose a few re-stocking fees if it means I am going to end up with a great laptop for me. @ Jaredy, almost everyone I know who uses Lenovo likes the machine MINUS the screen. But they do not get headaches from it, so they put up with it. Quite a few of them now use Sony for a better screen. Of course maybe not as strong but that is again debatable.

I have a friend who is sensitive to the radiation of a laptop and he only gets laptops that are made from a metal alloy, it helps him. So type MacBook Pro, some HP models etc, but it needs to be aluminum or other alloy. Anything plastic he cannot work on.

 

I have been following this thread for a while. It makes for an interesting read, but this last post - quoted above - is simply amazing!!!

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but maybe you need to consider getting a laptop custom-made for you.

 

Does Amazing equal stupid or how I am to understand this? No offense taken, but it's a stupid situation. It would be great for me to just be able to go into a store pick out a laptop and all done. Custom Made erhhh? Where in Europe would I go? I think if there is a forum they crate for people with similar problems that would go a long way. I did get an answer I could put it in a suggestion box somewhere on here, but I don't see why they cannot immediately create such a category. As I said more people suffer from it all than one initially suspects.

 

I would think and maybe I'm wrong here, there'd be a ton of engineers, artists, designers, etc., not to mention people who have vision issues, who'd love to get their hands on a quality screen. I've never understood why no one has stepped up to serve this market.

 

I think it is time to put a business case to Samsung, LG-Philips, AUO, etc about making some high quality LCD other than TN and in more formats.

 

No. Amazing does not equal stupid. Given the constraints that you are working within, I was suggesting that perhaps you could approach some outfit that makes custom machines to make one for you as per your specs, if that is possible at all. Yes, it would be very expensive.

In this context, one of the things to think about is the numbers concerned. Of course, as you put it, there might be a quite a large number of people who have similar problems to the ones that you have mentioned here. But when considered in the context of the total market size, the numbers representing this group of buyers would not or, more accurately, may not justify developing a dedicated line of machines to cater to the market that you represent. I would guess that the OEMs have to not only think about economies of scale, but also pay close attention to the related opportunity costs and the average selling price of the machines that they manufacture and sell on the open market, which plays a significant role in the market share that these companies are targeting for.

Having been exposed to large manufacturing concerns, I have noted, often with dismay, that the core business decisions are usually made by financial analysts (who watch and give more weightage to profitability ratios and bottomlines) and not by the marketing people, the designers or the technical people. Unfortunate, but that's the way the 'game' is increasingly played these days.

 

Penny pincher run most companies, and they have to please shareholders whom want investment return and don't really care about the TN vs IPS debate.

 

Precisely! A shame, but that's the way the cookie crumbles nowadays!

 

I'm not sure why it's such a surprise that they need to make a profit. Lenovo is not a charity.

 

it is not a surprise to many people, but some people just can't understand this fact when they start complaining about why companies can't do this and that. Sometimes common sense is not so common....

 

Well I think there is a gap between common sense and profits ... hey Lenovo offered other screen options in the past why not now? Also there are profits and there is sheer greed. Most companies nowadays are typified by the latter, hence the whole amazing situation of our banking system, air upon air. I mean I would be willing to pay an extra few hundred dollars for a different screen on my laptop, is that better screen is an option.

 

Lenovo use to have the IPS because they were the left over parts from the IBM days. Lenovo is not IBM, IBM can offset much of their losses through profit from their other business unit, Lenovo have no other operations to draw capital from.

Also, computer companies are not banks or investment companies, whom makes risky investment for large profit returns. While computer company moves physical products having small profit margins.

They are not going to order screen for people when only a small minority of purchasers want them, this doesn't make business sense. No one is going to hold stock of products with small margin in anticipation of possible customer demands.

If you are willing to pay more than get a X200 and swap it out with AFFS screen, but then you would cringe at the amount of money you have to spend.

You buy cheaper laptop to take with you for work, trying to offset the possible loss that will if it is stolen, while laptop companies would not invest in parts if the unit price is too high because people just want cheap laptops. I think are some common elements in how everyone operates when it comes to investing their money for something.

 

Yes I agree ... still there are better screens on the market ... that tells me that indeed there is a market for it. And maybe like Zaz pointed out the demand may be greater than what people think.

 

The demand is not sufficient. If it was, some computer company, weather it be dell, or HP, or lenovo or sony or whoever, would start catering to that market specifically, and all the other companies would jump on the bandwagon in order to get their piece of the pie. And as an accountant I can tell you that what consumers call greed is what companies call maximizing profits. And it's all about maximizing profits, all the time.

Maybe other companies have already committed the investment capital to have such screens, maybe they get good deals on nice screens, maybe they're left over stock. Each company is unique for whatever reason they carry those screens. In the case of lenovo, it's obviously not in their financial interest to commit any assets towards higher quality screens. I mean they're not dumb. They have marketing consultants that test the trends in computing and evaluate the competition, they have accountants to perform cost/benefit analysis, and a whole slew of people who's sole purpose is to optimize profits. If there was money to be made there for their company, they would be doing it already.