Lenovo vs IBM, how is quality now?

Hello,
I have always sworn by IBM Thinkpads as being incredibly durable, highly functional notebooks. I have been disapointed w/ the construction of every other notebook I"ve ever used (perhaps w/ exception of macs), especially hp, compaq, and dell.

I have heard that lenovo machines are not up to the very high standards of IBM. I currently use a lenovo t60, which I find to be an excellent box, but I also heard that it was the last thinkpad IBM made and lenovo just put their name on it. I hear that the machines are now made in China w/ less quality control.

I noticed that T series notebooks are now selling for around $1000. This T60's msrp was $2800! Does the reduced cost reflect lower quality?

If Thinkpads are no longer flagships in quality, what manufacturer, if any, has taken their place?

Thanks!

 

ThinkPads' durability is still far superior than other brands. The problem is that since Lenovo acquired ThinkPad lines they started putting cheap plastics on some surfaces and on some recent models the keyboard has noticeable flex - esp. on T400 and T500. I was very disappointed when I tried those out at Microcenter and the keyboard almost wobbled in some areas.

Oh, and I suggest to stay away from the SL series since I've heard lots of complaints about their build quality.

 

its actually not the plastic that has changed but an actual piece of metal support that used to be under the keyboard. you are correct though in saying the t400 and t500 flex. they all are missing the metal support. if you look at an expanded t60 or t61 and then the t500 you can see the metal piece that goes around the keyboard that is removed.

 

I was referring to the plastic palm rest area. The plastic used on T43 was much more firm and had no wiggle. And why did they put away the red stripes on trackpoint buttons?

 

I'd still say the current ThinkPad line is better than the majority of consumer notebooks in build quality. I went to a local store recently (Best Buy) to check out notebooks for a friend of mine and I was amazed at the difference in build quality, especially the keyboard and LCD hinges. I don't think I can go for anything else other than a ThinkPad; I'm too use to the keyboard/trackpoint/power manager/thinklight/easy clean installs.

 

x200 has the stripes .

But ya the thinkpad quality is less than it once was. However, they are built better than most notebooks. However, HP has been really stepping up their business line as well.

I still like the thinkpad keyboard feel over HP though.

 

I have used Thinkpads for the better part of a decade (my latest being a T61P) and I can say that the quality has suffered with the Lenovo ownership change. My T61p has had two motherboard replacements, and has been shedding plastic bits. My old T60p and T42p have never had these problems. I am glad I got the onsite warranty!

 

Quality is down by a small margin, but it still blows other brands out of the water (this is probably why it has fallen off; a complete lack of competition).

The x200 series feels very solid, but fit and finish seems to be down slightly (there was no bezel space on the screen on my T40).

 

X300 and X301 is super amazing!

They both feels super high end ,

the top cover is made of carbon-fiber!!!!

 

I would agree that ThinkPads are not what they used to be, but are still better than most. Lenovo doesn't live in a vacuum. If they made 'em like the used to, they'd cost a lot more and people wouldn't buy them. Everyone loves to get the latest coupons, but there's a cost to that choice. That's the reality of buying a notebook in '09. For those who believe the ThinkPads of yore never had issues, you're looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. Time washes away the pain of the GPU issues on the T4x, the memory slot problems on the T3x, etc.

 

Right now I would say lenovo just needs to step up on their support though...

 

Yea, it depends a lot on which machine you purchase as well. Build quality on my T61 was good, better than the Asus and Acer notebooks I had owned before I purchased it. But, the X200 I own now is even better than the T61 - easily the best build quality of any notebook I have ever owned, and I've owned plenty.

 

Great to get all the opinions. Thanks!

 

I thought that was true as well. I have seriously looked at thinkpads on several occasions throughout the years. 03, 06, 08 (purchase). And even though the materials have changed under lenovo, so has the price tag. IBM thinkpads were expensive. "Maybe that's why they were better", True maybe.

T400/T500 really did have keyboard flex, but fixed now by lenovo. My x200 had wobbly uneven rubber feet (fixed), slightly creaky left handrest where card slot is, poorly installed keyboard (fixed), creaky mouse buttons (fixed with wd-40), trackpoint that moves by itself sometimes when in use (unfixable). Most x200 owners don't have these issues. But still I'm not complaining, I got a mega deal with EPP coupon and it is a very sturdy computer.

 

I'll add to that list: the case cracks in the T2x series, the battery problems with the 600s, the worst-keyboard-feel-ever on the 76x series, and the left mouse button that broke almost on a schedule on the 755 series.

 

Lenovo laptops still have among the best quality in the Windows world. As a reference point, I have a VAIO Z, ThinkPad X300, and MacBook Pro 15 (late 2008, unibody). I've sold off many more laptops. While the VAIO Z has the best screen, between the VAIO and ThinkPad, I use the ThinkPad much more. The ThinkPad just "feels" better in terms of:

- overall sturdiness; I feel like I can pick it up in any way, throw it into a messenger bag, etc. and it will keep on working reliably
- high resolution (but not *too* high to be readable) screen
- ongoing software/driver support across multiple 32-bit and 64-bit variants of Windows (especially 64-bit Vista and 32-bit Windows XP)
- small but useful keyboard light (great on a dark airplane)
- relative lack of bloatware: I have done a clean install on the Sony, but it came almost unusable because of bloatware which is strange for a business-targeted, expensive laptop
- same, small power brick across the different ThinkPads I've owned: the cost adds up quickly when you want multiple power adapters for different locations!
- dedicated volume keys (easy to find) and decent speakers (yeah, not that important but a nice touch)

I got my parents a T61 some time ago, and they've had similarly positive experiences. I've tried other Windows laptops (Dell M1330, etc.), and something about the hardware just didn't feel solid to me. Aside from Macs, ThinkPads are the only laptops I would want to purchase because of the software/driver and hardware quality.

 

Still very well built, thought quality control is not as good as it used to be. Hence defect products here and there.

 

hey the quality is the same or even better. that is what i think. i use a t40,t41,r50,r51,t60,t61 and honestly i think they have change to serve a better service. like the t61 and the t60 is different. but you know something the t61 is more heat resistance and also i think the t61 is more easy to get into for repair. like removing the handrest and also the keyboard. and fix the speakers and the memory/Hd swap. so i think that is really good man.

 

The palmrest of my T61 is probably made of cheap, thin plastics, because if I press it even very lightly, it sinks, and when tapping it it sounds very hollow.

The reason the quality of Lenovo went down is perhaps just because of all those on the market, they are still one of the best, especially in, e.g., keyboard (which I like--but haven't seen the flex mentioned by others). Maybe they think in such situation it's safe for them to lower the quality in some areas.

Yes. I've had quite some phone calls with the customer service. Different reps gave different answers to the same problem, the majority sounded very unknowledgeable of what they were talking about, some to a shocking degree. I found that the more unknowledgeable the rep, the worse the attitude--he's cocksure that he knew it all and he's right. Not to mention the obstacle of communication caused by the strong accent in many cases.

 

Still durable, more so than other consumer line NBs. The made in China things is BS. All tech products are made in the Middle Kingdom. IBM TP was made in China too. Its a middle America, Bible belt ingnorant point of view.

 

They're still a class of their own, ThinkPads. Of course, issues will arise (think T400 keyboards and screens) - but Lenovo is more than happy to fix them.

I own a "lesser", "consumer" Lenovo laptop. It's almost a ThinkPad. Sturdy construction, HDD APS, OneKey, clickety keyboard. This sort of shows how used to making ThinkPads they are!

 

Certainly my T61 is somewhat flimsy on the upper left side (just above the ThinkVantage blue button), the plastic flexes and feels a cheap laptop in that department. The hinges hold the LID even firmer than on my T42p.

I had a T30 with the memory slot problem, then the T42p sold concerned the GPU issue would occur.
The T61 has a roll-cage, but other features in older models shed off, like the Stereo recording (thanks to the REII), volume control is no longer controlled by hardware (if explorer crashes I cannot mute or lower the volume which is annoying).
So far I'm happy with upgrading from my T42p because I can use larger SATA HDD's not even compatible with the T43 which supposedly used a SATA-PATA bridge, so we can't say everything IBM did was 'well -engineered'

 

I find business class laptops from companies such as Lenovo, Dell, and HP are all pretty comparable in terms of build quality (then again there is a certain element of luck), but they are definitely noticeably superior to their consumer counterparts.

 

I actually went through the hassle of buying my own 80GB 7200rpm IDE drive for the T43 several weeks ago before deciding against getting another used T43. What they did with the interface bridge in the T43 made 7200rpm and large capacity 5400rpm hard drive upgrades a complete and expensive pain in the rear, especially if you had to flash the hard drive firmware to get rid of Error 2010. If you look on eBay now, you'll still see 100GB 7200rpm 2.5" IDE drives sell for $120 used, which is ridiculous.

My T500 doesn't have bezel tolerances as tight as those on the T43, but I still think it's very solid. The lid hinges on my T500 are stiffer than any laptop I've ever used, so there is one obvious area where Lenovo made an improvement. I received a new replacement keyboard yesterday from Lenovo and even though I don't really notice the difference in flex because my original keyboard didn't flex as much as others, the keystroke feel of the replacement keyboard is much crisper and seems to have a deeper range of travel. If the new T400 and T500 orders are getting this new keyboard, which they are, there really isn't much left in the complaints department from a hardware and chassis standpoint. I still don't think anything else is built as solidly in the business or consumer classes.

 

They used a stronger chassis rather than the piece of metal under the keyboard, and they are offering to swap out the keyboards if you prefer the old style.

 

Thinkpads were once the Lexus of the laptop world -- despite their dowdy design, renowned for their rugged construction, leading components, flawless quality control and excellent customer service. Today, the Thinkpad is more like a Jeep -- still rugged but increasingly prone to poor quality and eccentric design (the asymmetric screen and webcam, the oddly place firewire port, the flex and hollows that give the entire machine a cheap feel).

This has nothing to do with Thinkpads being made in China. They were made there even in the IBM days. Indeed, all brands are made in China today (except surprisingly Lenovo, which also manufactures in India and Mexico) and the quality is usually very high. Instead, I think it reflects a decision by senior Lenovo executives (some of them American) to milk the brand to recoup Lenovo's expensive acquisition.

 

It's not only the keyboard, it's also the chassis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY5Qpq1UUZE

I cannot do this with my cheap-o-barebone from Zepto. I don't know if this really is a problem but you wouldn't expect that from business class.

 

Lenovo makes great notebook. period. I've been using thinkpads for more than 2 decades and thinkpads were always been my preferred choice and been proved highly reliable.

Many people tend to romanticism the "old times" but forget that notebook cost about 5x than today and were almost handmade. Today all the manufacturers built in china or other places. This is not the point. The point is the QA process and the initial design of the machine. And in this two point Lenovo excels IMHO.

I think you can buy a notebook from any manufacturer and have a bad luck to get some crappy machine, and not enjoying it at all. But I think that for the business users and espcially those who travel a lot, Thinkpad is the preferred choice.

Please be aware that this is only goes for the thinkpad lines. I have nothing to say about other lines of Lenovo.

 

Do comparanble lenovo's cost more than dells now? They were roughly the same when I purchased my t61p a year ago. Actually the lenovo was cheaper at the time which is one of the reasons I got it. With coupon codes and such they are usually within the same price range.

Although I haven't used dell, thinkpads just seem a bit sturdier as a whole, but dells are decent machines as well. Dells tend to look better too (studio xps and xps lines).

 

The dell latitude e series are not bad. A good improvement over the d series. The 12 and 13inch models are rather expensive though. The keyboard are also not fantastic. Regarding the 14 or 15inch form-factor I'd say it really comes down to your feature preferences as well. The dells in that larger form-factor are priced well in comparison to the smaller premium models.

I think highly of HP business laptops in terms of build. However, they are usually not as light and I am not a fan of the keyboard.

 

Once again, NBR spotted it first: that something was amiss with the Thinkies in Lenovoland.

The American CEO of Lenovo resigned today making the point that " The perception of value for Lenovo’s notebooks has eroded a bit, and that’s been a problem for the company."

 

I would have to agree. They've even imitated the Thinkpad hinges of the Thinkpad.