MacBook Pro 2012 - a better Thinkpad?

Probably I get banned from this forum, but I have to say what Apple is publishing these days make me consider change a philosophy. I bought Thinkpads for years: 770X,T40p, T61p, W510. I am a business oriented user doing software development and real working stuff, so I always looked for something high performant and robust. But what strikes me today there has been no development or even regression in following points for ages now:

1. Display, resolution went down to 1920x1080 for all high end models, beside of this is the W510 the first model with a usable outdoor brightness at all.
2. Thermal management, a laptop is noisy, hot and the fan is on all the time.
3. Weight, no improvement over years, you can not get affordable performance with less than 2.7 kg (additional you have to carry a real big power brick)

These are the most concerning points I had in my mind and all these points are beaten by the MacBook now. I have to say Wow, what a machine:

1. Display, 2880x1800
2. Thermal management, well designed, hard to hear
3. Weight, not more than 2.0 kg

Let me explain. I am a Linux user, no Apple, no M$ - you understand. There might be a lot of new Thinkpad models left like the X-models and other stuff, but in my target range there is no real option. I don't want to bash the brand of Thinkpad at all, I think Lenovo tried its bets to keep the quality and probably they are still top for specific segments, but IMHO they lost parts of the market in the high end area.
Nearby August I have to make my final decision, I will see if the W530 is available in Europe with some good options, but I have not much hope.

Thomas

 

I don't buy a thinkpad for the specs, I buy it for the feel. With a macbook pro I would be afraid of touching it for fear of leaving scratches...

I mean.. mbp are nice laptops and have many features I'd love but it isn't something you can just toss around...

 

It's refreshing to read the points you presented. I'm no "fanboy" of no stinking company's products. I am a buyer with money to spend: the vendors must please me, and I invent no excuses for them.

Aw c'mon. Have you actually touched one, used one day after day? The rubberized finish on the ThinkPad is much more prone to scratches and oily fingerprint marks!

I've been working with both camps for years. There are "goods" and "bads" with all products, and I'd rather stay factual per case.

 

I'd have to disagree with both of you. My thinkpad has very few scratches as compared to my mpb. Also, it's a lot better thermally designed. The thinkpad vents get pretty hot on stress but the entire mbp heats up. the screen resolution of the new mbp looks to be sharper but does not necessarily give more real estate nor is the color reproduction or viewing angles.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

I've had a unibody MacBook Pro for a while, before swapping for a T420. Build quality is generally very good. It even ran Ubuntu Linux quite well (few, if any, driver issues).

Also, Macs are terrible in terms of thermal management. My MacBook Pro would often hit 90C with the CPU at full load. This was a Core 2 Duo, mind you.

My only real issue with it was the glossy screen, but even that is a minor sticking point.

 

Are you shooting from your hip? Check out the scaling modes:

 

The guts of W530 and the new mac are quite comparable, but everything else couldn't be more different IMO. One is extensibility/upgradeabily/black/trackpoint/matte screen, and the other is solderered-to-motherboard-everything with glossy screen, metal case and even more dramatic sacrifices in keyboard buttons, compared to the "normal" case. European pricing of Lenovo could be different, but in US/Canada there is a big price difference too.

Unlike W510, W520-W530 have switchable graphics, so the laptop is silent most of the time when typing (especially with tpfancontrol, but there is a linux analog AFAIR). It's about 1.5 pounds heavier and quite a bit larger, but 32GB RAM and up to 3 internal drives have to hide somewhere, especially if they need to be replaceable without too specialized tools. The convenience of the fingerprint reader is also very handy, when all HDDs are encrypted.

The big power brick is indeed big, but it's the price to pay for no throttling with full GPU and CPU load, while still charging battery. And Lenovo you can force to full desktop-like performance when on the battery, with both CPU and GPU if needs to be. It won't run for more than 2-3 hours like this, but when you need it, you need it, and with spare/slate batteries user can control for how long.

But yeah, Lenovo has some lessons to learn. Hopefully they will learn the good ones, and get even better screen options for example, and not cut even more keyboard buttons, or make the keyboard even flatter, or start using glossy screens so that movies look better in the dark.

 

Interesting new article on the new MacBook Pro:

Retina MacBook Pro full of Air-style proprietary parts | Ars Technica

Parts are completely proprietary. Batteries are glued to the chassis. RAM is soldered. Only removable part is the SSD, and even then, the connector is proprietary, and not mSATA. Also, the article notes that any damage to the display would require replacing the entire display assembly.

That is one thing I don't think about the new MacBook Pros. They are not easy to self-service.

 

Well, all screens can be set to non-default resolution, or use DPI scaling (like Windows 7 does at high DPI), or the likes of Lenovo magnifier.

But it does not come for free, and unless the resolution is exact half of the real one, there will be artefacts, moire, issues with some apps etc.

 

Yes, have read it and some similar to it.

To a ThinkPad enthusiast, Apple products, not just this new one, are a disaster.

But then again, the "big-name company employees" (allegedly Lenovo's target customers) can't even spell RAM, let alone self-service their corporate-asset notebooks. I also wonder, do those highly-paid typists need Ivy Bridge at all?

 

Yeah, they do. Because many of them are using all kinds of corporate-internal-made-junkware, the core of which was written by some intern in Visual Basic in 1997, to which 35233 features have been added since plus Lotus Notes support. It's getting slower every day, much faster than Intel & Co manage speed up their CPUs.

And then there are all them Kasperskys and Symantecs of the world, doing everything in their power to slow down any machine to P4 level.

 

I own both a newer MB Pro (13"), had a MB Pro 15" before that and also own a 520. I buy computers based on what software they run. I bought the MBP last fall when I had to spend considerable time with my father in AZ. Thought I'd give it a try, as it's small and lightweight. I spent a lot of time with a Mac using Final Cut Pro for editing. Since he passed away I've not had a need for a super portable laptop. So I'm back to the 520 which is great. Great keyboard. Love the pointer. Probably will sell the MBP soon.

For me, Outlook is an essential tool for managing my email and business. It's been a non starter on the Mac (I tried it). Excel is also much better on Windows than on the Mac. I edit video so Adobe products, which run on both, make the issue of which OS moot. Quicken, another essential tool, is a joke on the Mac, and has a huge array of other products for it on Windows. Bootcamp was, for me, an unpredictable product that seemed to overheat my GPU, and occasionally blue screened for no apparent reason. I've not had any blue screens on any of the Windows 7 64 bit machines in quiet some time.

Price is close when you are buying high end products like this. Apple always pushes the limits of new technology (good for them!), but it's interesting that they decided to add USB 3.0 to the new models. The lack of a USB 3.0, as TB drives are, as of now, not being produced in quantities, is also aggravating . There's nothing wrong with USB 3.0.

When I need a grab and go device, either my smartphone or tablet does the job.

It's great that Apple is updating it's models with Retina displays, but honestly, unless you are doing Adobe Illustrator work it's really not that much better. (IMHO). I certainly don't need to sell my Thinkpad and run out to buy one.

With the loss of FCP 7.0 Apple has given it's community of video editors a great opportunity to shift over to Windows. The only cloud on that horizon is Windows 8. I bought my 520 now to avoid dealing with a machine pre-loaded with 8. 8? I'll wait. (G)

 

Thats clearly not a better ThinkPad. In fact, it is the opposite of a ThinkPad, because of the complete proprietary hardware, glossy display (urgh), no docking-port, no DVD and no ethernet (very important for me). Also the keyboard can´t come close to a ThinkPad-keyboard and the chassis is less robust (drop it, and it will break easy. ThinkPads with their roll-cages are very sturdy compared to a MBP, even if these feel more sturdy in the first moment). You have also only one year warranty standard and only 3 years with the upgrade, just horrible compared to the standard 3 years and the upgrades 5 years of warranty you can get from Lenovo. The price is also to high for such a lack of important ports.

The screen itself is maybe on of the best in a notebook, but thats not worth it. A W530 with FHD has a better overall package than the MBP Retina.

 

this is not to say that the new mbp isn't very nice, cause it is. but its also almost double the price for the same parts. i am considering it as well along with the w530

1. usable desktop resolution is only 1440x900.
2. mbp's have been notoriously hot

yes, you can increase usable real estate, but you'll be running non-native resolutions which will be blurry, although its likely that the added pixel density will counteract that.

RAM is non-upgradable

glossy is the worst, but i think you can choose matte

you can use a thunderbolt -> ethernet adapter
but i agree this is a ridiculous omission.

 

Hardware is OK, but I would rather run Ubuntu Server w/o GUI as a daily use OS than OSX. Crap OS. Tossed Unix implementation.

That and they left the rj45 port off of it. What is up with that? They want people to use a damn thunderbolt dongle for ethernet? No thanks. For being a "pro" model it sure lacks some pro features.

Consumer.

 

I would have preferred to see Lenovo slim the W530 by about .25". I thought they might take the opportunity while changing the keyboard. And yea, it would be nice to see a power brick that isn't literally a brick.

If the W530 multimon support really supports four external LCD panels, and the throttling issues are resolved, that would be a good thing. And assuming the SSS is also resolved, then the W530 should be a winner.

There's a lot to like in the engineering of the new MBP. I realize a lot of the engineering is counter to the culture here (present self included), but I like to see the envelope pushed. It forces the rest of the industry to react.

Would the Samsung Series 9 have been created if it weren't for the MacBook Air? What about the Carbon X1?

I see the reviewers are publishing some thoughts on the MBP Retina but none of them have bothered to bootcamp a unit yet. Now that should be interesting.

 

Agreed. Apple sets design trends. They are exceedingly good at it too.

 

I suppose the pros need floppy disk drive, CD/DVD drive and VGA adapter, as well.

Yeah, as you said, Apple sets design trends: they've been the first to get rid of things.

 

Getting rid of ethernet for a dongle is stupid.

VGA is very much alive and well in the IT world. Serial ports are still very much in use as well. FDD and CD/DVD less so.

 

And don't forget PS/2 mouse port.

 

i like everything about the new Retina Macbook Pro, except the inability to upgrade its internal features.

So if the RMBP have problem with its SSD, RAM, etc then you are going to be looking at an expensive fix.

But in many ways the RMBP is a great step forward for the MBP design. But ThinkPad will still be my working laptop.

 

Not for the Retina MBP.

Oh, yes, thats clearly Apple. You have to buy an adapter, how nice is that.

The first thin ThinkPad, the X300, was there before the MBA hype. The original X1 was released before the big ultrabook-hype too. Sure, some design aspekts of the new X1 Carbon are borrowed from the MBA, but Lenovo has making Thin-and-light machines before Ultrabooks. The X1 Carbon is also the logical evolution of the X1.

Sure, Apple sets trends, but only because Apple is making money as hell. But they are making their money in the iOS business. Mac is not so important for their wealth. Their major impact on the industry is coming from the iOS devices. But the other PC-vendors are following them because they make money, not because their Macs are so good. Hope you understand that.

Thats so horrible.

 

Apple never used PS/2. High end desktops and workstations still come with them.

 

X300? Came and went?

If I were CEO of a PC company, I would do that in order to make money. I wouldn't care about random forum members. Look at ThinkPad "precision" keyboard.

Take my PS/2 mouse port reference as a joke. At some point, some guy would decide to take care of new stuff and leave the legacy stuff to the other guys.

 

back it up further, the MBA was a direct knockoff of the sony x505 in 2004, same thickness, dimensions and all. just years later and cheaper

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-20020535-64.html

Apple is just better at taking older ideas and marketing them since 2006

high res displays in laptop, Thinkpad r50 2048x1536 .... 2004 ( i have that screen in a t60 as well )
backlight keyboards, Panasonic Toughbooks circa 1995
chicklet keyboards, Atari 1982, later Sony laptops 1998
metal unibody, HP Sojourn 2004 ( magnesium alloy not aluminum, it was tougher )

their big contributions were SCSI advancements, firewire and early USB adopter

 

Oh yeah, the personal computer, the MP3 player, the smartphone, the tablet... heck, their own OS... But, somehow, they get the attention and the money.

Not "just marketing," though.

 

Sony is Apple of previous generation, from Walkmans to movies.

There is Sony Z31, with 13.1" 1920x1080, all SSD, very well made, island keyboard, all soldered to the motherboard (but still can add an external battery), powerful CPU, external GPU and even cheaper. All that, while being actually light and small (15" laptop is not the one dropped to the bag "just in case", no matter whether it is 4.5 pounds or 5.5 pounds). And it can play BluRay movies on that screen. No need to rewrite all existing applications either. But, it's a Sony... and 1920x1080 must be too many pixels for 13", who needs that...

 

Yes, bacause they know how to sell these things and they are good especially in one thing: Marketing. Steve Jobs wasn´t a technical mastermind. He was a marketing mastermind.

Yes, because it was to expensive. But the T4xxs series is in some cases the mainstream-evolution of the X300.

 

Woz was the technical genius.

Now he just drives around Santa Clara Valley complaining about silly things. So much for him I guess. lol

 

Lets see here:

Macbook Pro - consumer grade

ThinkPad - business grade

Holy moly! Oh yeah, if you drop your Macbook Pro? Good luck paying 2000+ to fix it. ThinkPads will survive the one or two oops moments in life. Want on site warranty? Yup to ThinkPads, nope to Apple. What about accidental damage? Again Lenovo wins. 5 year warranty? Lenovo wins yet again. Useful docks or should I say docks at all? Lenovo wins. I think I'm seeing a trend here.

 

Kaso I WILL agree on the personal computer. sadly not the rest.

Touchscreen smartphone with apps, email etc I had was a palm treo. years before my original iphone . iphone was evolutionary yes, not revolutionary. I'm looking at my Treo and thinking: touchscreen, plays music & movies, cut & paste, MS Office, email, testing, real keyboard, 1,000s of apps

mp3 player.... i had a couple small ones pre 2000, not as fancy but they were around. again evolutionary.

tablet ... hu?
In 1994 media company Knight-Ridder made a concept video of a tablet device with a color display and a focus on media consumption. The company didn't create it as a commercial product because of deficiencies of weight and energy consumption in display technology.

In 1996, The Webbook Company announced the first Internet-based tablet, then referred to as a Web Surfboard, that would run Java and utilize a RISC processor.

One early implementation of a Linux tablet was the ProGear by FrontPath. The ProGear used a Transmeta chip and a resistive digitizer. The ProGear initially came with a version of Slackware Linux, but could later be bought with Windows 98.

In 2002, original equipment manufacturers' released the first tablet PCs designed to the Microsoft Tablet PC specification. This generation of Microsoft Tablet PCs were designed to run Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, the Tablet PC version of Windows XP.[3] This version of Microsoft Windows superseded Microsoft's earlier pen computing operating environment, Windows for Pen Computing 2.0. After releasing Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, Microsoft designed the successive desktop computer versions of Windows, Windows Vista and Windows 7, to support pen computing intrinsically.

OS ... sort of OSX and iOS borrow very heavily from BDS linux and other opensource OS's

pert of why I started joining the darkside 3 years ago

 

Mainstream evolution? Please, don't say that. I used to own an X301 and a T410s. The T4X0s is nowhere close to the X300/301.

 

But wouldn't that be the direct result of the effective marketing? and not just because of their product design?

 

Do you read English? Or, rather, is my English that bad?

I was listing those things to say that, yeah, Apple did take those "old ideas" and make awesome products with them: personal computer, MP3 player, smartphone, tablet... the Mach-based OS... the GUI... whatever.

(It's the reverse of what you understood.)

 

You want to ignore industrial design and technical engineering? There are are lot of foresight and discipline in those aspects of Apple's operations.

Not just marketing.

Somewhere, sometime ago, I came across this phrase: "Reinvent an existing product category."

 

My apologies
Ive been stuck in the Apple forum too long

 

hence, why i said:

But wouldn't that be the direct result of the effective marketing? and not just because of their product design?

So i am not discounting the element of industrial design in the success of Apple products after Steve Jobs came back to the job of CEO.

 

No problem. It's just fun discussion.

I was in New York City attending the IBM PC launch, way back when. I was using an Apple Lisa and a Xerox Star, way back when. I was buying one of the very first ("transportable") Macintosh machines, way back when. (I paid over $4,000 for it. A MacBook Pro with Retina Display for $2,800 is nothing.) And, then, all sorts of ThinkPad notebooks.

I'm not one of those twenty-something guys sitting in Starbuck these days, you know.

 

Glad im not alone, I stated out on the stars, Compugraphics and then into XT's and the Commodore PET, etc. I think my Mac Classic ( not the color ckassic )was about my 11th computer. yes im dating myself a bit.

oh starbucks is fun, take a portable workstation or a Toughbook in ( yes im one of THOSE annoying ppl who have dumped a large latte into a CF-30 intentionally, then have a barrista rinse the running laptop out under the tap)

 

Heh I didn't mean that thinkpads were more scratch proof... just that it doesn't matter as much if I did. I guess I'm just the odd one out... I'd rather have a non-mint condition laptop than a brand new one because then I don't stress so much over keeping it perfect.

 

Credit is due where credit is deserved. Although I probably would never buy a Mac because it's so overpriced, trades so many important ergonomics for form, and is tightly bound to one ecosystem, the "Retina" MBP is a great step for Macs and PCs alike.

The new screen looks amazing from pictures, although it's disappointing that Apple dumbed down the screen resolution selection so much. 1440x900 usable is probably a smart default, but as noted on Anandtech, it maxes out at an effective 1920x1200 (only certain full-screen applications and games will take advantage of the full native resolution). That's still top-of-the-line for modern 15" laptops, but I don't think it's enough of a distinguishing factor.

Also, cutting the ODD is a great move. I think the first-gen HP Envy 15 was fantastic for making that move, and I really wish HP stuck with it across the board. Now that Apple's doing it, hopefully more laptops (including business laptops) will begin shedding that useless space hog.

As for thermals, the new MBP is also a good step in the right direction, but I highly doubt it can top my T500 (literally, I can't hear the fan, even if I try--unless my ear is touching the vent): that's my personal benchmark. Engadget's review indicates that this is a bit more of a marketing ploy, though, as they didn't notice it being significantly different from the previous MBP (though the sound signature is now more similar to that of the Air).

 

I think Apple is trying to play up the whole cutting ODD thing as something new and awesome, which it sorta is, but I think the real reason is that they had to get all that battery capacity in somehow, else the new MBP would get crap battery life due to the retina display being a lot more power hungry than normal displays.

Otherwise, don't you think they would have just put Retina in all their laptops instead of just one model they designed with retina's power consumption in mind?

As for getting rid of the ODD in business laptops that aren't ultraportables. No. It's a feature still very commonly used. And for those that don't use it, it can be traded for extra battery life with a bay battery or a second hard drive.

 

I'm glad that a major vendor is promoting Sharp/LG's high-end displays. Hopefully we all benefit from the economy of scale.

As far as the MBP is concerned, it's thin and looks pretty, but given the trade-offs involved (especially the fact that's one of the most user-hostile hardware designs I've seen) mean that I can't even consider it. It's definitely a good choice for people who don't mind the price premium and the complete lack of upgradability/serviceability.

 

Is it? It shouldn't matter all that much, as resizing etc. is all GPU based and hardly compares to backlight in power consumption. Retina and non-retina versions have the same number of hours of rated battery life.

Thinkpads with FHD also run about the same time on battery as their HD counterparts with half the pixels.

Perhaps because it's a state-of-the-art custom panel, and getting 3 custom panels at once would be too much.

 

the retina display is alot hungrier. the new battery is 20% larger and has the same or slightly less battery life overall

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/130819-analyzing-the-macbook-pro-with-retina-display?print

 

The retina MBP gets the same battery life as the old MBP, but with a much larger battery. This also is like the new iPad, which had a much larger battery and gets the same battery life as the old iPad.

Pixels are made by transistors over the backlight at various levels of transparency. When you have so many more transistors, the backlight has to work harder to get to the same level of brightness.

Hopefully, by the next refresh Sharp has enough IGZO panel capacity so this won't be a problem.

This still doesn't explain why it isn't at least on option on the old MBP15.

 

Max out the RAM at 16GB. Increase the amount of storage to 768GB.

That'll be enough so that you won't have to open up your computer! And it can run Linux.

 

not a chance for me I need 24+gb and 1-2T of storage.

to add insult to injury the new retina display seems to calibrate about 67% RGB gamut

 

I can only guess but why bother fitting the new panel into the legacy model, which is merely covering some niches now such as matte screen, disk space larger than 768GB etc.

Especially as the premium for 256GB SSD and retina screen over the glossy 1400x900 is just $400 (Lenovo charges a lot more for FHD and 180GB Intel 520).

 

Wow! This new thread succeeded to eliminate my appointment with Lenovo after the launch of the new MacBook Pro. I can now live happily reminding myself of all your negative comments about the later (which I agree with most).