MacBook Pro 2012 - a better Thinkpad?

Is Linux support any better than that of Windows via Bootcamp, with discrete graphics only, half trackpad features etc.? If one is tied to a power outlet and mouse anyway, a desktop with external monitor and mouse is better on all accounts including price, power and screen size & quality.

And for running VMs, 16GB RAM or 768GB of storage isn't a lot.

 

You mean the niche of people that want a machine that has a usable port complement, decent storage capacity without ridiculous price, doesn't make a crap ton of compromises for the sake of having the questionably useful retina display and decent battery life? Is that a niche?

 

So what is the best engineered and affordable notebook on the market?

 

Thats not a lenovo feature. All windows 7 and probably vista machines can force the cpu and gpu to run at full load all you have to do is choose the maximum performance power plan. Or you an create one that suits your needs.

 

That's not true. Even when you choose maximum performance, some machines like the W520 will significantly throttle on battery for example and this is Lenovo's design that could force it to "DO" when needed even if the user would like to compromise the battery life.

 

Well of course unless you have a third party power manager that can override stuff

 

Thinkpad X230 obviously.

Actually depends on your needs. And your definition of affordable.

 

The X220 and I assume X230 are fine machines. We have a lot of employees using them. But a 1366x768 resolution machine doesn't even get in the door with me. IPS or not.

That is really the key. Everyone has an idea of what the "perfect" machine is. "Better" is a personal decision when you are spending your own money.

Which is why threads like this will never achieve consensus. The same is true for the perpetual OS debates.

Thank god for choice.

 

Well, it still basically is new for full-size laptops. And I see no problem with increasing battery size to maintain battery life; that's a perfectly valid (and good) design decision.

The niche for ODDs is shrinking:

For general consumers: Content is moving to the web, backups are generally done on NAS and external HDDs. The shrinking costs of Blu-Ray players (that often also upconvert DVD) is also displacing it as well.

For businesses: The laptop dock is used by a huge fraction of business computer users, and often, this has an ODD--thus making an internal ODD redundant. With more prevalent use of cloud data storage in businesses, there's reduced usage of optical disks for presentations and the like as well: most users also find it far more convenient to use a USB flash drive. IT teams do not rely on laptop ODDs either, as software installation is either done over the network or by installing an entire imaged hard drive. And besides, business users that make extensive use of the ODD usually do not use it on-the-go, making an external ODD a better choice.

A multi-bay is a reasonable solution, but removal of the bay as a whole and use of the extra space for another internal HDD and/or additional battery capacity out of the box is more convenient, more compact (ie, can fit more cells), and lends additional structural rigidity.

Agreed. Which is why I think the new MBP adds a nice addition to the laptop market, and will hopefully give PC OEMs a nudge towards higher screen resolution options.

 

not trying to be too rude, but a small fix. many people don't realize we USED to have higher ppi/resolution screens years ago before some marketing morons decided 720 & 1080 are " high definition "

I have an r50 sitting in a closet with qxga (2048x1536) resolution and its over half a decade old its t60 counterpart is still in use. and yes that is an ipad 3 retina resolution in a 15" laptop in 2004 ( 170.6 ppi )

 

Of course not only Lenovo's feature. But it's also a matter of battery being able to provide adequate power. Lenovo's 9 cell can produce the needed 100W in peak. Whether the 6 cell, for example, can produce it - I have no idea.

 

Thank you for emphasizing this.

Morons? Right, like "inventing" that highly questionable "precision" keyboard and new layout while letting the mediocre screens dwindle.

 

True. We all know ThinkPads were ahead of their time.

 

Emphasis added.

 

So, is anyone here actually thinking about getting the new Retina MacBook Pro? I mean, it is an amazing machine for what it is.

 

It's cool, but too much $$$ for me. 16GB RAM is the bare minimum for me and the cheapest configuration w/ 16GB is $2400. Also, I can see needing more RAM within 1-2 years, at which point I'd be looking at a second pro w/ retina @ god knows what price point

 

To tell complete truth, with the exception of that particular R-series model, the current 15.6" FHD screens offer as large ppi count (140-ish) as all previous hi-res screens.

Marketing morons have rather successfully achieved "less-is-more" (which is a common trend now ), with 15.6" screen being actually smaller than 15" of old. It does not come without additional benefits though, with 15.6" models now offering similar portability to 14" models with 16:10 screens and it's now cheaper than ever to own a Thinkpad (even not taking inflation to the account, T- or X-series now start in $700s, not much more expensive than the usual consumer-oriented junk).

P.S. Interestingly, using Apples vague "retina" definition, the effect is achieved with 1920x1080 and 15.6" at about 25" distance, even not accounting for sub-pixel sampling. Lenovo should rename their FHD to "retina (for people with 20/20, and right posture)"

What I'd really be more interesting to see, instead of all these laptops screens, is affordable 24-30" IPS monitors with 140-ish PPI (i.e. ~3500x2000 in 27"). That would be useful.

 

Because they are getting there.

 

When I am looking at a T420, I would clearly say: NO. For my L520, I would say that too. It is way better than an average consumer notebook from Media Markt (here in Germany).

 

Luckily, there was a big head start, so still a long way to fall. I can imagine a wave of disgust in this forum, if Lenovo put a 3000x2000 screen option, but glossy only, and that with RAM soldered to the motherboard and battery glued to the case ( I'm sure they'd manage to get it wobble somehow still )

 

Mine will be here Monday.

 

You've just received +REP.

This is a good point. (1920x1080 on Dell U2311H IPS is relatively fuzzy.)

That's quick. There's a two-week wait in my case. (They wouldn't let me buy a "slightly used" one on display!)

 

Seems like everyone is getting the new MBP then and I am the only one getting ThinPad that does not actually want to ship and their reps f... me with lies as if I needed to carry more burden on my shoulders

 

I bought a 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD model via the online store as soon as they went live.

 

I thought by now your were a veteran Lenovo purchaser. The quickest way to get your order to ship is to cancel the order. Unfortunately I am not kidding.

 

You know what, you are right? No kidding, I placed an order for T530 with FHD this morning and I have a feeling that I will get it before my T430 ships! At least, if I did not like the 'infamous' display of the T430, I can stick to the T530. For people who criticize Apple. at least you are dealing with respectable people who value customers and their time, who have physical stores, who have a CEO that you can reach if you have a non-solvable issue and he will give you a call back next day

For the 1000th time, I wish I could adapt to the Mac and I would not mind if it cost me arm and leg.

 

Cost and value are interesting dimensions. Kaso mentioned machines used to cost $4000. I think in those days the machine you wanted was more like $5000.

So with that historical perspective, the MBP Retina is a steal.

Ironically, mine was paid for using the profits from buying and selling ThinkPads.

 

That is so interesting! At least you had something good out of your ThinPad interaction and tolerance!

 

The new Mac is a great alternative to, say, Y580 with FHD screen. If you're willing to pay the price and happy with OS X and Windows in a VM. Thinkpads are different.

IMO if you don't need the Thinkpads features, there are other better or cheaper laptops out there. E.g. 13" Sony Z & Asuses will give you full HD screen of good quality & Windows in a much more portable package than the new Mac. Or T520.

 

Sure, but:

1) The cost of upgrading the RAM at the time of purchase is ridiculous compared to doing it myself.

2) I still can't replace the battery.

3) That assumes that I'd find their SSD choice to be satisfactory. I may not; I don't care about space so much as < 4K performance and power consumption.

4) If something breaks, I still can't do a CRU replacement. There's something to be said for getting a part overnighted to you and swapping it out.

5) If I'm looking for a Linux box, Apple's hardware isn't a great choice. It's not bad, but it's not great either. (If only because their EFI implementation makes life harder for a lot of distros...)

I'd absolutely love the option to get a high-res IPS panel on a W-series -- I can only hope that the next rev. includes the fruits of a couple of Lenovo/LG negotiations -- but I'm not willing to make a whole host of other compromises to get it.

 

I'll be swtiching to apple despite being a thinkpad fan for years.

The crux of the problem is that lenovo is abandoning the thinkpad. Some examples:

1. Changing the 16:10 ratio into 16:9. That's a huge compromise on productivity - you can't even display a full A4 document in most models (even HD+). Apple was the only one in industry to maintain the 16:10 standard. For some reason everyone here's excusing lenovo for falling back, blaming screen manufacturers instead, instead of petitioning for better screens.

2. Lenovo has been systematically lowering the resolution of thinkpads in the past years. More than five years ago, some models carry a QXGA　(2048×1536) monitor, which got discontinued. Then the 1920x1200 was downgraded to FHD, and 1366x768 became the mainstream. To put this into perspective, 768 vertical pixels is less than what people used to get 10 years ago (1280x800). Resolution is king when it comes to office work, programming or graphics. 16:9 is only good for movies so thinkpads are essentially reduced to portable DVD players. When the ipad 3 came out I already commented that it had more pixels than any thinkpad on market. Now that a notebook with such resolution came out it will be the natural choice for us who treasure usability. http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo-ibm/650105-ipad-3-3x-resolution-current-thinkpads.html#

3. Actually, as a thinkpad fan I would've put up with all the crap for the matte screen, keyboard, etc. But even these traditional thinkpad attributes are gone. All 2012 thinkpads have done away with the traditional keyboard, and if I have to choose between chiclets apple wins by a margin. And they've gotten antiglare on the screen too.

So in conclusion, MBP retina pwns all current thinkpads and I am basically forced out of options to switch sides due to lenovo's complacency and aggressive destruction of the thinkpad icon.

(To be fair MBP retina isn't without its disadvantages. I agree that non-replaceable parts is a significant drawback. However, as an office user I have little concerns with the upgradeability. The base specs of the retina is enough for keep me going until I get a new laptop - a thinkpad, hopefully, if they manage to catch up 2 years down the road. As for price, yeah it's more expensive but not really unaffordable, so it's not an issue too.)

 

Have you even touched either the Precision/X1 keyboards or an MBP/MBA keyboard?

 

The classical ThinkPad Keyboards were better than current MacBook Chiclets (which aren't bad either though) and Lenovo's new precision Keyboard is better than the classical one.

It actually IS the Panel manufacturers fault that we are stuck with 16:9. Lenovo said themselves in their Blog that they wanted to stick with 16:10 AND 4:3, but they would have had to open a whole new department for Displays and start researching them and basically loose all their money like IBM did. So we might have gotten one more Year of 16:10/4:3 ThinkPads, but at the Price of never seeing one again afterwards. Something like that anyways.

I could also say that Thinkpads pwns any MacBook because of it's easy upgradability and good hinges, but I won't because I can't rely on those two arguments alone.

 

Yes, the missing 120 vertical pixels are very annoying indeed. Especially as, given the bezel size, there seems plenty of space to do it only optionally.

According to thinkwiki, thinkpads X/T/W series have never had this. Only a single R model.

But yes, anything less than 15" is in total disrepair now. Even if the resolution is there, the panels range from bad to horrible.

Which is why the ability to connect 2-3-4 external monitors is very essential.

AFAIR Apple isn't doing particular great here. One external monitor + laptop screen is hard to use, because of vastly different sizes and PPIs. Even with one external monitor, the Macs didn't let user to get the screen out of the way while using the laptop keyboard and trackpoint (Thinkpads have 180 degree hinge). Perhaps the new one is improved.

Hmm. Not sure how throwing even more useful keys away and making them all flat makes the keyboard better.

Sure, Thinkpads are on the downhill slope, but luckily many of the right decisions made in the early days are still there. Keyboard is a warning sign though. X1 was another. For me, there is still a lot good left, before jumping to the consumer notebook land starts making sense (and there Apple is the king, of course).

 

the r60 was the only official one, but for years there has been thousands of us put them in t60 and t61's Lenovo even helped us do it in the official forums. Lenovo Canada did offer the T60 pre upgraded for a cost

old info http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Installing_a_QXGA_display_in_a_R/T60_or_61

ok i have to be honest, Apples multimonitor support sucks. its one reason I moved away from Apple for video editing and design work, and no M.L. is no better

 

Yeah, point the finger at the suppliers. I don't buy parts from suppliers, I buy a single product from Lenovo. Shape up!

 

1. But it's soldered. There is a cost to that.

2. How often do people replace batteries on laptops? When I had a MacBook Pro with the sealed-in battery, I rarely found myself thinking "Man, it would be great to swap out the battery to get some more juice from another battery!"

3. You can read Anand's analysis of Apple's SSD here, to see if it fits your needs or not:

AnandTech - The next-gen MacBook Pro with Retina Display: SSD Analysis

Anand speaks highly of the SSD on the new Retina MacBook Pro.

4. That's why you've got AppleCare. Or iFixit.

5. Really? What distros do you run? I ran Ubuntu on my old 13-inch MacBook Pro and it worked well, like a champ. Everything worked out of the box.

Apple themselves admit that they had to engineer each and every single part of the new MacBook Pro instead of using standard parts, but I believe that the result is stunning. I can't wait to see what the 13-inch Retina MacBook Pro is like.

 

Then you would need to pay more for your Thinkpad... and people often balk at paying more, especially given that Lenovo's all about razor thin margins and high volume.

 

But Apple continues to get 16:10 panels from somewhere, for both 13" and 15" sizes (11" is already 16:9). And they get matte 15" 16:10 option too. So there are manufacturers that still do it. And if there are not, there would be plenty should there be a demand (the vast majority of 10" Android tablets use 16:10 1280x800 IPS screens).

It's not hard to see Lenovo's logic though. They don't compete with themselves in the past, and 1920x1080 is still more vertical pixels than competition, or any 15" MacBook Pro had before this retina. So all is good, we're ahead, business as usual, no drastic measures needed.

Hopefully it's changed now, and the next Lenovo generation will show improvements. I suspect iPad's success was one of the reasons we got IPS "premium" screens in X2xx series too.

 

Please, it's not about paying more or paying less. I just wanted to point out a myth that has become a party line that the enthusiasts keep parroting.

Why don't they come out and say, "Look, we procure the cheapest parts so you guys can pay less for your ThinkPad"? That will save you from having to invent some excuse on their behalf.

 

People who use laptops to do some non-office work while on the go. With CPU throttling off, power consumption of a quad CPU with screen brightness on high is 30-40W+. It finishes 90Wh battery very quickly and asks for more. I'm not even talking about GPU here.

For office work, or casual browsing, or watching movies 90Wh it's plenty of course. But then why to buy something with retina screen and GPU and quadcore?

 

Apple pays very much for their screens. Apple has the biggest margins in the industrie, so they can stand with the higher price. Lenovo can´t do this. Price pressure in the business-notebook market is very high.

 

I'm sure they cost more, but "very much" is relative. Perhaps it's +$100, okay +$150, to the bill of materials. Fine.

Transfer the cost to consumer, as an option. Lenovo will happily charge $250 upgrade fee to replace their HD with FHD screen.

 

I was unforunate enough to have bought an X1 and I can testify to the keyboard's crappiness. I returned it eventually, because of the keyboard, the glossy, low res 16:9 screen, poor battery life, amongst other design flaws the hopeless machine had.

Sorry. Although I consider myself a thinkpad fan I'm not as deluded as to believe that chiclets are better just because they're newer. The keyboard of my T420s already lost the clicky, responsive quality found in my previous thinkpads and the chiclet was a further disimprovement.

To be honest, I don't care if the panel manufacturers were at fault. Apple somehow managed to find 16:10 high res screens to supply their macbooks. Lenovo failed. Now all thinkpads have crappy low res 16:9 screens and I'm not gonna buy them anymore. That's what mattered.

To me, Thinkpads used to stand for business machines, a class apart from consumer laptops that you can find from Best Buy. Business machines are supposedly more productive in an office environment, possessing unique attributes: high res matte screens, good keyboard, better mobility, to name but a few. In return, they command a premium over the consumer laptop that lacks these features. It has come to a point where there is no important difference between thinkpads and the $300 cheaper Asus or Samsung from a business user point of view.

Does my opinion matter? It might not. But as someone who will spend 3000 bucks for a laptop if it delivered I do think I'm representative of many business, high end users out there. I used to spend 3000 bucks on a full spec X61s. The 2012 thinkpad line is uninteresting. So lenovo will be losing business and I'll be spending the money on the RMBP instead.

 

Yes. Lenovo has to compete against the Dells and HP Probooks, since they are in the same class. (Business Notebooks) And depending on their configuration, they can be quite cheap.

Even the ThinkPad Tablet switched from 16:10 to 16:9 this year. It's all about staying competitive, and as already mentioned Apple makes allot of Money with iOS Machines, so they can afford 16:10 Panels. But then, you do pay quite allot for them.

As long as this doesn' happen, I can hardly complain, even though I totally hate 16:9 in Notebooks: heise online | Toshiba bringt Ultrabook mit 21:9-Bildschirm

(sry, didn't find an english link)

 

They've probably switched for different reasons, as 1366x768 is the minimum recommended resolution for Windows 8.

 

THIS.

Stop the myth.

 

For some reason, Lenovo seems to be earning more money by the Year.

I am a very big Fan of the old ThinkPads too. I really love my 600X, but times have changed. Hardly anyone wants that kind of a machine, especially not at such high prices. A good 600X used to cost 10000$+ at its time. The same thing happened to the X300. It's actually a great Notebook, but way too expensive and too weak for most users.

Nowdays most people want lots of power for as cheap as possible.

 

I've always failed to swallow the point about black bars in movies. What's the problem with black bars? It's not that they decrease the movie screen size. Your movie will still be of the same size if you removed the black bars. And what you get is less screen real estate for other purposes.

Well actually 21:9 may be better than 16:9 since you can get two windows on parallel. With 16:9 you're stuck in limbo - there aren't enough pixels to open two windows, and the vertical screen space is not enough too.

 

Precisely.