Macbook Pro User Needs ThinkPad advice (thinking T420)

Hi,

I've been using Macs for years and love my Macbook Pro 15". However, I'm doing more and more work on PCs these days and need to get a laptop for portable use. Before I switched to Macs I was a ThinkPad user, and best I can tell they still look like the machine I'd want today. I have questions about 1) whether I'm choosing the right model, 2) ergonomics/touchpad, and 3) refurbs.

Am I choosing the right model? I'm thinking T420. Here are my *must* haves:

-CPU speed: i5 2.5GHz or better
-screen resolution and size: ~15", high-res (I like my MBP 1680x1050)
-screen type: MATTE (can't stand glossy, this is a deal breaker)
-trackpad: need a trackpad that can accept taps for clicks, two-finger drags for scroll, two-finger tap for right-click, etc.
-good keyboard
-discrete graphics adapter w/ HDMI, DVI, or DP port
-weight under 6lbs (less is better)

Ergonomics:

I *love* the ergonomics of my MBP, and as someone with carpal tunnel this is very important to me. I know ThinkPads are renowned for their keyboards and i'm not too concerned with that. However, the navstick and mouse buttons just don't work for me. I can't click them and instead have to use the trackpad for all mouse operations. Will the TPs trackpad accept the typical tap to click, two-finger swipe to scroll, and two-finger tap to right click? How well does it work? Can any MBP users contrast the two? If yes, is this true of older models/versions as well?

Refurbished Questions:

I'm thinking about going for a refurb from Ebay to save cash. I don't care about non-screen scratches. But these don't seem to come with Windows 7 media. I'll likely want to upgrade my drive to SSD---how do people do this? Do they clone the drive first? Do the refurbs come with windows 7 media keys? Also, will I easily be able to upgrade the RAM?

Finally, any other machines I should be considering?

Thanks so much!

-

 

I think the t520 would better suit your needs. You might consider w520, but it have brick for the ac adaptor.

 

Bootcamp on your Mac isn't an option?

 

Why the T520? I've been doing some reading, looks like it might have a better display?

As for Bootcamp, I'm doing lots of programming for interactive graphic art works, and while I can code on my Mac (either in Xcode or in a VM) I always end up having to move it to my desktop, working out the bugs/differences, etc. And in particular, it's a performance issue...I need to see and experience the actual performance of the code, not something running through a VM. For whatever reason, the work I'm doing (often involving cameras and computer vision) just runs slower on OSX.

IOW, I want a PC to code on that is portable. I will also use it to drive artworks occasionally, including using webcams plugged into its ports.

 

You'd have to compromise a little on your specifications (and the integrated graphics may be a deal breaker), but perhaps a new T410s would meet your needs:

Lenovo Outlet - T Series - ThinkPad Laptops - Laptops - Discounted Laptops, Cheap Laptops, Refurbished Laptops, Discounted Desktops, Cheap Desktops, Refurbished Desktops

In any case, you could continue to check the link for updated offerings.

 

Using bootcamp doesn't mean you are running a VM. With bootcamp you can create a partition on the drive and install Windows 7 directly to it. You'll be using the Apple drivers for Windows 7 and the glass touchpad on the Mac which is going to be superior to the ThinkPad. Because you are running Windows 7 natively, it will be the actual performance.

This is a very low cost route for you and is worthy of your consideration. It's certainly what I would do.

 

I beg to differ, running W7 on a mac via bootcamp will not get you the 'actual performance' of running w7 on a non-mac. Many of the apple drivers for w7, although improving, still suck. For example, things like power management and the trackpad drivers. It is definitely a cheaper option than a second laptop, and I think the OP should consider it, but it's not right to tell him that he'll get equivalent W7 performance/smoothness by running it on bootcamp.

To the OP, I would look at the T520 with the high res options. They can be had for cheap, especially if you forgo the discrete graphics.

 

That wasn't my experience on my MacBook Air. Perfect? No. But if money is a strong consideration it's an option. Beats paying $1000 for a T420.

The trackpad experience on my MBA was still better with Windows 7 bootcamp drivers then my ThinkPads with Lenovo drivers.

 

Yes, I do know Bootcamp is different but failed to make that clear. I want a machine that I can run concurrently with the mac. Despite my need to code and create in Windows, I use my Mac constantly for the rest of my life, so rebooting to Win7 is not an option for me. So the only realistic option for dual use would be a VM. I have Fusion and use it for Linux for some things but as MAA83 pointed out, I won't get enough performance this way (and maybe not even with Bootcamp).

Thors: The trackpad experience on my MBA was still better with Windows 7 bootcamp drivers then my ThinkPads with Lenovo drivers.

Can you elaborate? How is the trackpad experience on the 420?

 

Ah, gotcha. Yea, it's why I always have at least two machines running at all times.

As for the TrackPad on the ThinkPads, I'll let other folks chime in on that one. I have never seen a Windows machine yet that approached the touchpad on a Mac. I use a mouse. I almost never use the pad on the ThinkPads.

 

Am I choosing the right model? I'm thinking T420. Here are my *must* haves:

-CPU speed: i5 2.5GHz or better
-screen resolution and size: ~15", high-res (I like my MBP 1680x1050)
-screen type: MATTE (can't stand glossy, this is a deal breaker)
-trackpad: need a trackpad that can accept taps for clicks, two-finger drags for scroll, two-finger tap for right-click, etc.
-good keyboard
-discrete graphics adapter w/ HDMI, DVI, or DP port
-weight under 6lbs (less is better)

While the t420 does statified most of his requirement. I think the 1080p on the t520 would be more compairable to the screen quality and the number vertical line on the hi-res macpro 15".

 

^^^ Get the T520 with 1920x1080 display, and forget any "desires" regarding Lenovo trackpad.

 

Yeah, the trackpad supports most of those gestures, but it's no comparison to an MBP trackpad. It's average for a PC trackpad in my opinion.

 

does the trackpad at least support:

tap to click
two-finger swipe up/down for scrolling

?

and how does it not compare to the MBP?

 

these things work since ever... tap to click

 

it has both those gestures. It's just not as smooth as an MBP's gestures. Apple has the best trackpad in existence IMO, I mean the thinkpad isn't bad, but don't expect mbp-like smoothness out of it.

 

Both those gestures work, but they're not as fluid and reliable as on a MBP trackpad. There are some user-modded Synaptics drivers that do improve two-finger scroll, though. You may also want to practice using the TrackPoint, though, as most people who have tried it out and gotten used to it find it to be a far more efficient input method.

 

The screen on the 14 are night and day compare to the MacBook pro. While it does have a decent resolution the viewing angle and the contrast ratio are no where as good the 15 900p let alone the superior 1080p.

You can turn any touchpad have the function you are looking with this app http://code.google.com/p/two-finger-scroll/downloads/list

But you have to turn off multi-gesture from the synoptic driver. It seem to work better than the built in driver.

 

I'll throw my two cents in here, since I own both a 15" MBP (Late 2011 quad i7) and a T420.

I use the T420 mainly for my thesis research (computational elecrodynamics), with XFdtd and MATLAB. There are Mac versions of both programs, but the difference between running them on PC vs Mac is night and day. It is way better to use both those programs on my T420, which is a joy to use. It's one of the few PCs that actually Just Works (TM). The drivers are excellent, for the most part, and the machine runs smoothly. I've had very few issues or bugs with this machine.

Regarding the MBP, it is also a joy to use, but for different purposes. I use Mac OS for my more creative works and for everyday, non-research related programs. The trackpad is far superior than the T420 (but, I use an external mouse on my T420 anyways because of the CAD nature of my research software), and the machine has a great amount of punch.

Right now, I prefer the T420. My research software is CUDA-enabled, so the NVIDIA GPU on the ThinkPad gets worked often, which is a plus. I can also play the occasional game of Left 4 Dead 2 on it, running on medium to high settings at 30-40 frames, which is good enough for me. My T420 has eSATA, ExpressCard, mSATA, and USB 3.0 (from a flush-fitting ExpressCard adapter). The MBP has none of those options, only USB2 and Thunderbolt. I'd take USB 3.0 and eSATA any day over TB.

The tradeoff? Poorer screen quality. The T420 is notorious for having a less-than-stellar screen, but tweaking the color profile helps a lot.

So, bottom line, my ThinkPad is for Getting Things Done. Lenovo wasn't kidding when they made their current slogan, "For Those Who Do." The T420 is a workhorse of a machine (along with the T520/W520). The MBP, on the other hand, is a different beast. I'm thinking about trading off my MBP for a desktop Mac, to be honest. The ThinkPad has become my daily driver.

 

when you get the thinkpad trackpad it is there for basic functionality and backup, while the trackpoint is the device of choice.

Macbook Pro has the best TrackPad bar none, not only is the technology more mature, the software/driver integration into the Mac OS is also lot tighter.

But you get the ThinkPad for its no fuss operation and the ability to upgrade, then salvage for spare parts once it reaches the end of the life cycle.

 

thanks for all the feedback.

I'm still trying to keep this purchase within about $1k. I'm willing to go refurb or used to make it work, but I'm not seeing any out there with the FHD screen at that price point.

formerglory's account was helpful as well. i think basically I need to decide if the increased screen quality is worth the increased weight and size. since the T520 is similar to my MBP in those regards, it's probably fine.

 

The 2 finger scroll, and gestures in general on the thinkpad are HORRIBLE compared to MBP (I own the T420). For example, I am using the gesture mod linked to in these forums, and the 2 finger scroll only supports up/down scrolling, not sideways.

Also, expect worse build construction than the MBP. The T420 is better than most laptops, but not as stiff nor rigid as the MBP. There are parts of the body that will flex in when you press/hold that area.

And worst of all... The screen is plain awful. Many think it's OK, but since you are coming from a MBP with their great screens, the downgrade will be plenty noticeable to you.

Don't get me wrong though, I do love my T420. It's just you should know about, and accept, these drawbacks before you make your purchase to avoid heartache. Though to be fair to the T420, these drawbacks shouldn't be a surprise when you consider the price difference between the MBP and the T420.

 

perhaps this is the wrong place to ask, but is there anyone else who makes a pc laptop, but with decent trackpad support?

 

I am hopeful Samsung has this nailed down on the new Series 9 15" machines they have coming. They'd better for the price they are asking.

Another candidate on my list the coming Dell XPS 13 Ultrabook.

I am looking for a lightweight travel machine and swant something that meets the MacBook Air on quality and features. So far nobody has made one that does and the trackpad is usually cited as dismal. Waiting for the reviews on the new machines.

Then again, if Apple produces a 15" MacBook Air I can afford, that might be the winner I am looking for.

 

The drivers are better. I don't think that the hardware is significantly different -- both Lenovo and Apple get their trackpads from Synaptics.

Expect worse- feeling build than the MBP. The aluminium feels nice, no question, but I'd trust the T420/T520 design to hold up a lot more than I would the sleek glass + metal design of the MBP.

While the MBP will bend with enough force and stay permanently-deformed, the T420's body panels will return to their original shape. Yeah, the initial impression is that it's weaker -- but flex is engineered into designs for a reason; you don't always want perfectly-rigid structures. Ever looked out during a flight and seen the airplane's wings bending during takeoff? It's not because of low build quality.

In the T-series ThinkPads, the internals are protected by a magnesium frame which offers some protection from failure due to casing damage. With the MBP, components are bolted directly to the casing (including the hard drive [!!]), which means that the outer casing has to be quite strong since there's nothing else to protect the planar, etc. Lenovo (and IBM before that) used to use a similar design in their T series, but switched after the T4x issues.

If you're going to the T420 with a HD+ screen, yeah, no question it's a definite step down in terms of quality. Still, properly calibrated the T420 screen isn't all that bad; it's certainly fine for its intended use (office work). Photos or other things that require color accuracy? Yeah, not so much...

If you're willing to go the T520 route, you can get the FHD display which (IMHO) is at least as good if not better than some of Apple's notebooks' panels.

 

You would know the advantages of ThinkPad once you run some CPU and GPU intensive apps, while the MBP will overheat, the thinkpad will stay cool.

Also, upgrading the ThinkPad is easy and parts are readily available, try upgrading a MBP.

Finally, if you ever dropped a MBP, you would know how easily the aluminium external casing gets bent.

 

I saw a video on youtube demonstrating how to upgrade RAM of a 2011 MBP and I was under the impression that it was pretty easy... as easy as in a ThinkPad...

The bottom panel covers the whole machine and is easy to remove.. just a few screws...

The storage drive was also readily available after removing that panel.

Not sure about WLAN and WWAN cards, but the other parts covers what most people would eventually want to upgrade

I never owned a MPB, so I might be wrong.

 

Or the battery... But the ThinkPad allows a lot more replacement than that.

Spill something on your keyboard or damage it? With the MBP you're looking at a multi-hundred dollar repair, since the keyboard is integrated into the top chassis. With the T420? Two screws, and you can swap the keyboard yourself. In fact I just did that this week; my 'D' key came loose, I called Lenovo, had the keyboard on my doorstep at 9 AM the next day, and had the keyboard replaced within 20 minutes.

Decide you really wanted 3G after all? You can add it yourself, no problem.

Want a small, fast SSD as your boot drive? You can add an mSATA drive in about 15 minutes.

Lenovo even provides videos and detailed repair/replacement documentation showing how to replace literally every component in the entire system. Compare and contrast this to the approach taken by Apple to people who dare to avoid the Genius Bar...

lead_org has a good point about cooling. Unless Apple's had a change of heart since 2010, their laptop designs are *very* much "form over function" when it comes to cooling.

 

The MBP's aren't too bad, the MBA are the offenders when it comes to upgrading, because pretty much nothing inside there is able to be upgraded. But nothing is as easy as a hardware maintenance manual and a business class machine. Makes DIY idiot-proof.

 

Those hardware maintenance manuals are awesome, without a doubt. Helped me rebuild a T60 from spare parts a few months ago.

Though, iFixit provides fantastic teardowns/maintenance manuals for Macs. Those helped me do a few CPU upgrades on my Mac Mini and an older iMac.

And Apple DEFINITELY hasn't had a change of heart when it comes to cooling. My 2011 MBP is still a thigh-burner when rendering/encoding.

 

I followed the hardware maintenance manual to replace the fan from my wife's X200. I had to go deep into the notebook, but the videos were very helpful!

 

That's a shame. The last MBP I owned was one of the original designs (multi-piece aluminium). It regularly (at least a couple times per week) would heat itself right into thermal halt... assuming it actually got there and didn't crash first due to the heat. It also died an NVIDIA-induced death *twice*, which is no surprise given the temperatures it would hit on a regular basis.

My MacBook (last generation pre-unibody) was a little better, but it still regularly would hit 80+ C. It idled around 50-55C too, which definitely made the term " laptop" a bit of a stretch.

 

My 13" MBP got warm, but not that hot. The quad-core 2011 15" models get significantly hotter, and there's been a lot of reports of overheating.

 

thx for all the advice. as much as i wanted the FHD screen, i ended up going w/ HD+ in a refurb for cost. but it's a nice deal:

T520, 2.5GHz i5, 4GB (will upgrade to 8), nvidia, 500gb 7200 rpm (will add a small ssd for boot volume), HD+ screen, nearly a full year of warranty left...for $850 shipped.

I'm excited!