New 410 or upgrade my 400?

So, I am thinking of upgrading my t400 (approx. 2 yrs old, out of warranty, 32-bit Vista, 3 GB).

So, I am considering adding some RAM, with a 64-bit Win 7 Pro install. I know there are fresh install guides and such here, so I should be able to grab the new drivers (for Win 7) from lenovo, right?

I plan to go to 6 or possibly 8 GB RAM (yes, I crunch very large, complex datasets in various statistical analysis programs... more RAM is better) and perhaps a new 500GB (or 640GB) HD with the WIn 7 install.

So, should that be the choice, or perhaps a new T410 (or even a Dell or HP).
Opinions? Thanks

 

what is the CPU? The T410 with the dual Core i5 or i7 doesn't represent a huge shift in performance as compared to the P8xxx CPU. If you want to stretch your T400 life a bit (which is a fine machine), get a T9xxx CPU (T9400 has the best bang for your bucks) and this should give the i5 dual core a run for their money.

Since you do a lot of dataset number crunching, you may also want to get a SSD to improve the performance.

Also, what sort of CPU usage are you getting? 100% all the time?

 

I don't have the lappie with me at the moment, but it was a P8600. Newegg has teh T9400 and T9600 for the same price... $340. 2X4GB DDR2 at $300 (less for G-Skill and for 667 vs. 800).

I am so clueless about SSDs. They sound awesome, but capacity for price? And what about sequential vs. random? And the 'Trim' feature? I would have to do a lot of research. Plus, with memory and proc... that is like $600.

Also, have you replace procs in lappies? I have built a desktop, but never have disassemble a laptop. WIth the T400, I think I have to remove the back and the keyboard, right?

Thanks!

 

a SSD would be your best choice, I don't see any benefits to upgrade to T9xxx

 

you can go with ebay to get a second hand T9xxx, ram wise you use the DDR3 and not DDR2 ram, which can be used on the T410 should you wish to upgrade later on.

SSD obviously is more expensive, but all aspects of file transfer speed do also improve. You can take out the ultrabay optical drive and slot in a ultrabay hdd caddy. Which means you keep a ssd in the main hdd bay for applications and data that you need to access quickly for your work. And for other non-important files like photos and movies, keep the platter hdd in the ultrabay drive.

The processor is replace by removing the keyboard and then the heatsink, pretty simple. Just follow this hardware manual.

Lenovo Support & downloads - Hardware Maintenance Manual - ThinkPad T400 and R400

 

* Intel® Core™2 Duo T9900 (3.06GHz, 6MB L2, 1066MHz FSB)
* Genuine Windows 7 Ultimate 32 - English
* 128GB SATA 1.8" Solid State Drive
* 8GB (2 X 4GB) PC3-8500 DDR3 1067MHz SDRAM SODIMM Memory
* 14.1” WXGA+ (1440 X 900) LED, W/ Camera
* AMD M82XT Switchable Graphics
* DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer
for about
$1300. (Refurbished from lenovo)
Bluetooth, 1440X900 screen

I have no knowledge of the AMD M82XT

Also, I would update to the 64-bit version Win 7 (why buy 8GB RAM and a 32-bit op?)

Thoughts on this?

 

There are benefits in speed, but obviously if you are going to pay 200 dollars for it and getting a few per cent performance improvements over the P8600, then it is a questionable improvement. Hence why the OP should check whether the CPU is getting above 80% CPU load when running his programs.
------------------------------------

@Tony, don't worry about upgrading your laptop yet. You should check whether you need it first. If a refurb T400 costs 1200 USD, i would highly advise you get a T410 instead.

I think the DDR3 4 gig module is around 120 USD at newegg.com.

The ATI 3470 GPU on the T400 is pretty low end...

 

You can get a t9400 on eBay for $129, used: Intel Core 2 Duo T9400 2.53Ghz/6M/1066MHz #AW80576 - eBay (item 300453365283 end time Sep-05-10 01:34:36 PDT) or $168 on eBay new: Intel Core2 DUO T9400 2.53G 6M SLB46 SLGE5 Socket P CPU - eBay (item 120577675715 end time Aug-30-10 04:31:13 PDT)


Its a scam to pay $340 for a t9400, you can get a t9900(fastest model @ 3.06GHz) for $320: http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-Core-2-Mo...615248950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_698wt_1137


For the ram, you can get 4GBx2 for $225 on eBay: NEW 8GB 2x4 GB PC2 6400S 800 MHz NOTEBOOK LAPTOP APPLE - eBay (item 260644720765 end time Aug-12-10 04:38:33 PDT)

 

Why would you buy 8Gb of questionable ram from Ebay?

GSKill 8Gb DDR 1066Mhz 7-7-7-20 1T for $209 from NewEgg.

And I also agree with skipping the CPU. The biggest bottleneck in pretty much every computer on this planet is the hard disk. Want to speed up boot time? Want to speed up application load time? Want to speed up opening and closing files? Want to speed up swap space?

SSD.

 

Why is the memory I suggested questionable? Its brand new with warranty. I buy from eBay all the time, and have never gotten a bad piece of memory.

 

Yeah...it seems that the best way to keep the warranty on the machine and to speed it up is to go for an SSD. But they are damn expensive!

 

as long as the ram is from a reputable make then it should be okay.

 

And if you have problems with it?

Why pay more for RAM and then add the headache of eBay? Newegg is cheaper, faster, and far easier to deal with if there are ANY problems. Even if your problem is "I didn't like the color."

 

Oops, I thought the t400 used DDR2, well DDR3 is $195 shipped: HYNIX 8GB 2 X 4GB DDR3 SODIMM PC3 10600 1333 MHZ 8 GB G - eBay (item 300454201402 end time Aug-11-10 21:33:58 PDT)

 

Yeah, I found some very similar priced memory on Newegg. I would rather go retail, I think, for essentially the same price, than go with OEM or something stamped 'Dell'.

SSD though... I would love it, I think, but the 256GGB drives are like $400. And, I am paranoid about space. I know, it is a lot of space but it seems I can fill a good chunk of a 320GB drive.. maybe just my inefficient file maintenance. Also, I would be picking up Win 7 pro, 64-bit. (140 on NewEgg).

So: Win 7+Memory = $350-$380. SSD= $420 (for 256GB).

So... $800 or so.

 

ALSO>>>>

CTO on lenovo shows that a WXGA+ (1440x900) screens delay shipping by AT LEAST 4 weeks.

So... (that is the screen I have)

 

a little performance gain vs a hotter machine, a shorter battery time, I actually see no benefit (overall) here.

In term of performance gain, spending 200$ for a decent SSD will be the best choice you can get.

 

That was part of the reason I went for the P and not the T. I don't recall all of the differences, but the P is lower voltage and less power (with the same clock speeds depending on the model numbers).

I am going to have to research to find out which is a good SSD.

 

It really depends on what kind of use the OP is putting their machine through. There are programs that do a lot of taxing work on the CPU, and if the CPu is constantly pegged doing this work, upgrading the processor is a good way to restore performance with those tasks.

That said, an SSD is a pretty good upgrade. I think getting a new CPU, 256GB SSD, 8GB RAM, and a second HDD in the Ultrabay should be a great setup for a while.

Edit: Also, consider the P9700. It's a 2.8Ghz CPU with 6MB of cache, but also runs at a lower wattage. Less heat and a little more battery life. Its performance isn't too far off the mark of the T9900.

 

I will check the CPU draw when I get home today. But, I am having a hard time finding the P9700. I do see prices of around $330 and up.

And... duh, I can add a 2nd HDD to my t400? Ultrabay? The optical bay? I can remove the DVD and put a drive in there? I see some adapters...
Thanks!

 

Ebay prices on the P9700 are around $320-330 or so. Not that cheap but it's kind of a rare processor... it's the most potent of the P-series Core 2 Duos, at least. Since you're doing a lot of data crunching, the doubled cache might be a benefit.... but that really depends on how your CPU's handling your current needs.

And, yes, you can get a hard drive bay to replace the optical drive. Unlike a USB or Firewire external hard drive(since the T400 doesn't have an eSATA port) it'll run at full SATA speeds. I'm currently running a 7K500 in my main, and a WD Scorpio Blue 500GB in the Ultrabay. An SSD doesn't fit me on this machine as I have massive storage needs, but I may get one for my X200.

 

As I recall, I was using a huge chunk of proc power and RAM on the T400, but I will check. Also, it seems the P9500 or P9600 may be easier to find... and they have the 6MB cache.

 

good SSD (in short): very high - high -high IOPS (input/output operation per second), especially 4k read/write. The better random access speed, the better experience you have.

 

Don't worry about P9700, the T9400 is good enough for what it is. Basically you need the larger L2 cache, and not the pure clock speed as such. Save the difference for future laptop upgrade.

 

All this talk about SSDs leads me to ask: Do SSDs have a lesser lifespan than regular mechanical drives and are they more robust than HDDs? By robust I mean is the SSD more delicate than the HDD? And, Thinkpads as far as I know come with the Drive Protection system. I am assuming this is rendered irrelevant in the case of SSDs. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks

 

lesser lifespan: yes. SLC chips can survive about 100.000 clear/write times, but MLC chips can survive only 10.000 times. Regular HDD, in theoretical, can survive 1.000.000 times. but with TRIM support, SSD lifespan is getting better. 4-5 years of usage is acceptable

more robust: yes. SSD does not have rotating part (in fact, no movement part), so they can survive falls that kill HDD. they are also cooler and more power efficient than HDD because of that.

Active Protection System: yes. APS stop the HDD intermediately when its sensors detect a movement, that can prevent the read/write head from destroying platters's surface. In SSD, no need to do that, and if I'm not wrong, SSD does not contain movement sensor.

 

however, it should be remembered that it is much harder to recover data from SSD if something does go wrong. It is easier to recover data from a broken platter hdd, if it does fail on you for some reason.

 

@vimvq1987...thanks. Very interesting and makes me wonder if it is wiser to wait till the SSD technology becomes a bit more mature - maybe in 8-12 months (and the prices drop, if they ever do, that is).

@ lead_org...in that case probably best to store all data files on the HDD rather than on the SSD section.

 

First, I am an idiot. To be fair to myself, I haven't actually used the T400 in about 6 months.
The Proc: T9400 (2.53GHz, 6MB cache) Sys: Vista Business 32 bit.
Over 110 processes at start-up
I think this was during some indexing, but I was hitting 80-100% processor usage.

SO... it looks like RAM, Win 7 and MAYBE an SSD and Ultrabay? Adding the 2nd drive would allow me a smaller (and less costly) SSD.

But, if I have the Programs (Applications) on the SSD and the data files on the HDD, do I get the SSD benefit?

In Stata, you start your session, set how much memory to use (right now, I am going 1.3GB dedicated to Stata, but I need to clean up some data sets). Then you choose your dataset. I THINK that once the data is loaded up, you are running in Stata. So, I should get the SSD performance. I would deal with the HDD only when saving or re-opening a dataset, I believe.

 

What are clear/write times? Is the 4-5 years for MLC chips? I see that a 64GB SLC is $800 while an MLC of around 100 to 128 GB is less than 1/2 of that ($240 to $340)

Can you back up an SSD to an HDD? I don't see how it would be a problem... but I don't know.

So, a boot drive of maybe 64 or 128 GB and a storage drive of like 500GB?

Thanks
T

 

Investing some RAM is OK since you have 3GB at the moment, the processor upgrade would be a waste in my opinion. If you do plan to purchase a SSD then compliment it with Windows 7 as it does perform better with native TRIM support. (I think ZaZ found out SSD performs better in Win 7 than in Vista - thread). You can buy another Ultrabay and put your hard drive in there for capacity, I use this setup myself. SSD for programs, HDD for documents, music etc.

110 processes at start up is a high amount, i'm running just 50 processes at the moment on my T61 including Firefox, Thunderbird, PDF and iTunes all open. You probably need to clean install your system to make things run more smoother, don't just assume on new hardware to cure the problem since your specifications on the T400 is quite good by today's standards (in fact it should be able to service you well for another 2 years with some reasonable upgrades). Lenovo, while not as bad compared to other manufacturers on software bloat they do put on some questionable stuff which can slow your PC down. When I recieved my Uncle's X201T I was dismayed on the stuff they put on that system, so much for "Lenovo Enhanced Experience" it felt slow. So I clean installed it and cut the amount of resources by approx 40% and it felt much faster afterwards (see attached).

You can also optimise your system by preventing unwanted things starting up in the first place, type in msconfig in the search bar, then the startup tab and switch off unnecessary programs from loading up. I think you can save up a fair chunk of resources from 110 processes almost immediately.

 

@hearst555...two questions:

(1) What is Lenovo Simple Tap Watermark? It appears on one of the images you posted above?

(2) While I can go into msconfig, how to determine what processes to kill at startup?

Thanks

 

Some questions that I had as well. And, which lenovo crap can I dump? I mean, some of the stuff I assume I need, but how much is just duplicates of progs I already have or is just fluff.

Also, with an SSD, should I just do a fresh install? Get the disk, install my Win 7 flavor, my apps and such, the drivers and lenovo stuff I need and go from there? I would keep the HDD as my data drive and get an Ultrabay adapter for it

Also, since I will have the keyboard and such apart, should I change keyboards? I have one of the original runs of T400's and their is some flex... it is still much more stable than anything I have used otherwise, but... since I will have it apart.

 

I don't know too much about the other stuff that you asked (and am interested in knowing the answers) but I like to keep the "extras" on my machine to the minimum. I have the following Lenovo programs on my machine as I find them useful:

(1) Lenovo Power Manager (inspite of Win 7 having its own power management sotware)

(2) Systems Update: This I use to keep the various drivers (including for the BIOS) updated.

(3) ThinkVantage Tools: I keep this for diagnostics and to provide a consolidated picture of the performance of the machine.

 

1) Lenovo SimpleTap is mainly a control panel for tablets. You can control things like brightness, volume, mic and program launches just by tapping your finger or using the pen on the screen.

2) Just go to the startup tab and it should tell you which programs automatically load up on your system. If you provide a screenshot I could try and help you. Below is my one and it's not a lot on startup.

 

@hearst555...cool...thanks...will do.

 

Yes highly recommend to do a fresh install on a new SSD. Windows 7 installs on SSD's differently compared to normal HDD and doing otherwise may affect the alignment of the partition which can affect SSD performance.

 

I have both a T410 (2518EWG) and T400(276556G) in addition to one T60, T60p and a T61.

The T400 is a very big improvement over the T6X.

I bought the T410 because I really liked the T400 and wanted one more! Unless you need a display port (awkward) I actually prefer the 400 over the T410. I disagree with the new textured touch pad. The general feel is that the T410 has slightly worse quality compared to the T400.

I even prefer the look of Vista (T400) compared to Windows 7. The large ugly "start bar" is not helping.

Have you looked at the T410s? The s-series looks very nice. There is little to gain moving to T410.

 

T400 is based on the T61 14.1 inch widescreen, and quality wise they are pretty much the same.

 

You can change the Windows 7 taskbar to make it look like Vista's, simply right-click on the taskbar then Properties, then on Taskbar appearances just tick "Use small icons".

 

Short simple and to the point, that’s your problem right there. You can have 110 tast running (I have 80 processes on my x200t w 0 to 2 percent cpu usage), but they should not be taxing your drive at 80 – 100 percent CPU usage. You need to find out what is causing this, then get rid of it. A clean install of the oprating system (64bit if possible), would be a great start to getting the performance you deserve.
A T9400 CPU is still great in todays world, and the only possible upgrade that will benefit you would be HDD or memory related. Once you upgrade to windows 7 64bit, you will feel that not even those upgrades are worth it.

 

Here are three screenshots:

(1) Startup1
(2) Startup2

I have just scrolled down the box to show all the items.

(3) Task Manager

Thanks in advance.

 

How about the 410? I have heard that quality is declining over time in these models.

I can get a 410 configured as follows

-- i5-520 (2.4, 3M cache)
-- Win 7 pro, 64 bit
-- 14.1" WXGA (1280x800) (1440x900 delays by 4 weeks)
-- nVidia NVS 3100M w/ 512MG DDR3
-- 8GB DDR3, PC-10666 (1333MHz)
-- 500GB 7.2k HDD
-- Camera and Bluetooth
-- DVD 8X recordable
-- 3 year on-site warranty

$1566 with educational discount. Of course, I am trying to avoid spending money, but...
Still, I do like the 1440x900 resolution on my current 400 and would hate to lose that, I think.

Also, I have never heard of that vid card before...

T

 

Once I saw the process count and the CPU usage, I knew it was not good. I will have to do some sleuthing for sure.

 

Just install windows 7 64bit, and your troubles will be gone!

If you don't feel you need that 400 and want to upgrade, send me a PM as I might have someone that will take your system at a decent price.

 

OK looking from the list here's what I do:

Thinkvantage Tools, On Screen Display etc. - I will ignore these on since you like the services on.

- Microsoft Security Essentials - Keep it on

- Intel Common User Interface - I turn all these off, graphics will still work and the control panel is still accessible by right clicking on the desktop and choose Graphics Properties.

- SAIIcpl - Is used for the Conexant Smart Audio Control Panel. Not really that necessary in my opinion, you can turn this off and it shouldn't affect the sound on the system.

- Synaptics Pointing Device Driver - If you use the touchpad or both devices then I leave this on. As I use the trackpoint only I don't install this at all personally but that's me.

- Google Update - In my opinion not a mandatory service, so you can safely turn this one off.

- Adobe Acrobat - I would turn them off, in fact I would avoid Adobe Acrobat altogether as I find them bloaty just to read a PDF file. I use Foxit Reader which is much lighter and does the same job.

- Microsoft OneNote - Not really necessary especially since you're using a R400 and not a tablet so I would turn this off. But normally when I install Office I don't install OneNote at all if you don't have a tablet PC.

- Digital Line Detection - Maybe useful if you use a modem, otherwise I would turn this off.

 

@hearst555...

OK. Thanks. I'll take you up on your suggestions. I don't know why that Google Update is on. I remember having turned it off some time back. Anyways. I use OneNote all the time, so that has to remain on.

I hear you about Acrobat. But I need to use something which is more than just a PDF reader. I get Acrobat (the full version including editing etc. free from work). But if I could use a similar software that is lighter then I would go for it. But I can't find something that is freeware (with no logos or whatever).

 

A million dollar question I have been unable to solve... an Acrobat replacement?
I would love freeware without logos and such, but would even pay for something if it were less bloated and stifling to a system.

 

some people are complaining about the palmrest of the T410 creaking when you push on it, but this doesn't occur in every system.

Quality wise, the T410 is pretty much the same as the T400 (they are people whom have complained about T400 having a creaking palmrest, and it been a crappy thinkpad product, etc).

YouTube - Lenovo Thinkpad T400 Review

so much so people have used the above video as the standard reference for criticizing T400 as been an inferior quality product to the previous thinkpads. But those people whom own T400 would know that the flexing showed in this video is an 'atypical' behavior, and does not occur in every T400. So i guess you should apply the same logic to what people say about the T410 as compared to the previous Thinkpads.

 

Well on using Foxit Reader I pretty much see as in the attachment, the only "logo" that comes on is the "Do more with the PDF" but it's not in the line of vision which is distracting. Foxit Reader doesn't have a splash logo when starting up. I haven't tried their PDF editing package yet (think it's called Foxit Phantom) as I only tend to have the need to view PDF's mainly. Creating PDF's I use something like MS Word, even Photoshop and print them out as a PDF using "doPDF", another free, yet lightweight PDF converter.