New T410 - i5-540 - WORST THINKPAD EVER!

I just got a T410 with Core i5-540 as replacement laptop for T61 at work.

THIS IS THE WORST THINKPAD EVER!

I never had the T400, and I heard that it was pretty bad, but this one aint anything to roam about.

Pros:

• Pretty fast CPU
• Pretty fast HDD (320gb 7200 RPM)
• Overall good performing laptop - faster than T61
• Good level of ports available

Cons:

• The keyboard is much worse than T61, the keys don't have the same feel.
• The trackpad is terrible
• The centre pointer is also located in an awkward position making it much less ergonomic to use than T60s, T40s... my right finger is hurting like HELL after 3-days of use
• Location of ports are awkward, it doesn't make any sense
• Screen is HORRENDOUS (I got the 1440*990), the viewing angle is just terrible, and it's incredibly dim, with really bad text quality. I miss my T60 screen despite not being *LED*
• The docking stations for T60/T61 doesn't match T410
• BRAND NEW Battery lasts ONLY 2-2.5hrs, despite having Core i5! T61 battery when new could go for 4-5hrs!
• The case is CHEAP, it does NOT have the same feel as other thinkpads, I've owned all Thinkpads from T40, T41, T60, T60p, T61. ALL were much better quality all around.
• Despite the new CPU, and technologies, the notebook is actually THICKER than before! This is unbelievable!

Overall, THE WORST T-series THINKPAD I've ever owned and THIS WILL BE LAST. They have totally replaced top of the line quality construction and items with CHEAP material and have made a trusted and true business laptop into a CONSUMER GRADE laptop competing with Acer and Gateway.

All the positives of this laptop is the result of Intel and new STANDARD technologies offered in ALL new computers, and NOTHING with Lenovo's implementation.

I think next up for me is a Macbook with Win7 install on it, too bad my work doesn't support it... but they probably will soon enough.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS LAPTOP TO ANYONE! I WISH I COULD RETURN IT!

 

Please do not cross post in the future, no matter how much you dislike your laptop, as it is poor forum etiquette and against forum rules. In the mean time, a few points for you to think about:

- the same design team that designed the T60 also designed the T410 and current T420
- the Thinkpad division was already under Lenovo ownership prior to the T60's release, and most T61s are also Lenovo-branded
- the TrackPoint is in the same position that it has always been, with the UltraNav buttons centered beneath it
- which battery did you have on the T61, and which do you have on the T410?

 

Sorry for x-post... I am TRULY UPSET with this really poor laptop as I've ONLY owned Thinkpads since 2004.

Do you own one that defend them?

I work for a technology company, doesn't matter which design team is there, order comes from the top as to what is the priority... in this case IT WAS TO CUT COSTS! The design from T40 to T60 did NOT change much, just technology inside... so I don't think the Lenovo design had much to do with it.

The material used is now ALL PLASTIC, so a lot cheaper.

The trackpoint POSITION vs. the three buttons has changed... I don't care how you say it is the same position, IT IS NOT. I think maybe the biggest issue is that the left/right buttons are NOT straight now, and are angled... making it harder to hit, hence reaching out. IT IS WORSE! WHY change something that's been working PERFECTLY for the last 7 years? I seriously have to return this to work and maybe get a refurbished T61 or something... The trackpoint is pretty much useless for me, and that was one of the reasons I've always bought Thinkpads (or at work ordered one instead of HP). No more, I am gonna have carpel tunnel with this CRAP!

Even the keyboard is worse, layout slightly changed which I can get used to... but the FEEL of it is definitely worse and I am sure they have used a CHEAPER keyboard supplier.

Battery is 6-cell, used to be 6-cell. Battery could be lemon... another poor quality control.

 

Actually, the plastic in the W520 is reinforced with carbon fiber and the W520 has a grand 6.5 hours battery life. Also, the T60/T61 series came out and was discontinued before the T410 was released.

 

"•The docking stations for T60/T61 doesn't match T410"

I have a T61 and have a T520 on order.

I think it uninformed to expect them to.

Renee

 

For one, you come into this forum and start posting flaming comments in what is quite a loyal user following. Troll much? Had you posted in a cool, calm matter we would be able to help you out.

Computers are getting cheaper and faster. That means quality has gone down. But I can assure you ThinkPads are more durable than 98% of what is out there. Go ahead and buy an HP or an Acer then complain about ThinkPad quality.

 

I had a 14" T60 in my senior year of undergrad, bought the T420 for grad school, I think the T420 is much better. Better screen, no flaws in the casing (the T60 had a weird bump under the palmrest plastic).
Also feels more sturdy and gets insane battery life. I think Lenovo is making them better IMHO.

 

If you never had it, perhaps you shouldn't bring it into the discussion. I've had my T400 for two years and been very happy with it.

Your expectations on docking stations, that a machine should work with a docking station two generations older is unrealistic. Check HP and Dell systems, and you'll find the same.

As for the rest, I suggest you get a rabies shot there pardner --you're foaming at the mouth a little. After that, maybe we can debate ThinkPads from a calmer, more constructive point-of-view.

 

The T410 is my first ThinkPad and I'm rather impressed by it that I'm heavily considering purchasing another ThinkPad (probably X-series) in a couple years. I believe that Lenovo has done a good job keeping prices down while offering some of the best laptops out there. ThinkPads used to be a luxury item costing around $2000 but Lenovo has really started using less expensive material to keep costs low which transfers to consumers paying less. Sure, quality and materials used may not be as good as what it used to be but at least it's more affordable. And it's not like the materials used before are so much better that it justifies the high cost. I think the layout of the ports is very good; it's definitely a lot better than the location of ports on the new T420/T420s or X220. I don't have many complaints about my T410 but battery life and screen quality are perhaps my only 2 complaints. I think all the other stuff works fine.

 

I bought a T410 from the outlet and it came with a broken port and palmrest flex. Lenovo refused to repair it for me so I got a refund instead. It was an alright machine but I agree with your points OP. Especially the screen, it was HORRIBLE.

 

So wait. You heard the T400 was awful so you buy its predecessor? Just wanted to point that out.

Did you do any research on the laptop before buying or merely got because it's a "Thinkpad?" (And you had previous success with it.)

 

I am not going to bash you on the negativity of this post (there are many people on here that will do that)

When I came over to the T410s (and the x201) from the x301... I was surprised to the level of quality drop... however I feel with the pricing difference it is worth it.

I agree with you on the screen, the screen angles are not great, the keyboard on the x301 feels better, and the touchpad URGH... I hate the texture...

Even with all those negatives.... I could not say I hate this laptop, in fact I really love it, and I bet if you give it some time you will come around....

Just keep in mind that your company probably paid about 40% less for this unit than the older T model you had.

Best of luck.

 

Another overly dramatic thread. My first (and current) Thinkpad is the T410 with the core i5-540 processor, and I absolutely love it. The screen on mine is very bright, text is clear, but the viewing angles are pretty horrible, I agree with that.
I'm not coming from any other thinkpads, but I just can't agree with your opinions OP, sorry.

 

I think the OP has the right to his opinion, but I think he may have just come on a bit strong, if someone with a few hundred posts came out and put up a negative comment they would not get as much hate as the OP got... sorry about that... but it is what it is ...

 

It's a combination of low post-count, but also the ranting. The first means possible trolling; the second just doesn't convey that the maturity is there for constructive criticism and debate.

I can understand unhappy, constructive criticism. It can be quite productive. Rants and flames, however, rarely accomplish anything, other than to turn off the very people who would be willing to provide assistance.

 

As I saw this thread on the forum front page, I was convinced what I'd find inside would be an old discussion about how the then newly-released T410 certainly was much worse than the Thinkpads of yore, and maybe also had a horrible screen and what-not. I assumed someone had found it and bumped it to, perhaps somewhat sarcastically, put the ongoing discussion about the current generation's various shortcomings into historical perspective.

But alas, it was just a troll (though, possibly, an unintentional one)...

 

My friend owns a T60 and an X201s. I owned a T61, I now have a T400, and I will soon have an X220.

My T400 is better than my T61 was in every way. It's lighter, better built, faster, cooler, quieter, has better battery life, and the screen is better (although still quite bad from a contrast/viewing angle/color standpoint).

My T61 was (and my T400 is) significantly better than my friend's T60. He has overheating problems, which the T61/T400 does not. Compared with my laptop, his T60 is heavier, less sturdy, slower, hotter, noisier, and has a worse screen.

I have other friends who have owned T4x and a variety of X-series ThinkPad laptops. And I can flat out say that since Lenovo took over the mainline (T/X) ThinkPad laptops have improved in virtually every way, with the possible exception of LCD quality (which is a mixed bag - the older displays had better viewing angles and contrast, but the newer displays are much brighter).

The fact is that I just spent $900 on an X220, and during the IBM days I wouldn't have been able to get a ThinkPad at all for $900. And it's going to have a fantastic IPS display that will blow the old FlexView away in terms of brightness.

ThinkPad laptops are better than they have ever been.

 

T61 was an okay machine, but it is not that different to the T410 in many respect.

Regarding the screen quality that depends on which LCD panel manufacturer you had. The T61 with the Samsung screen was a shocker

Unless you had the T400 to compare to the T61, then you can't really say that the T400 had lower quality than the T61, since that is not really true.

Regarding machine thickness differences between a T61 and T410, there was only a few mm differences, which was hardly noticeable to the naked eye.

I am surprised that you perceived a quality difference in casing materials, because they are pretty consistent in terms of material used between the different generation.

What GPU does your T410 have? and what is the spec of your T410 and T61 batteries?

 

I agree with lead_org on the fact that the Samsung T61 display is a shocker because my T61 has it (the horizontal views are great, but the vertical views makes you want to puke). It also had 3 hours of battery life with a 6 cell battery (Panasonic) w/ wireless and 30+ tabs in Chrome.

 

Let me try to comment on OP's rant, since Ive had T410 for some while and prior to that had R400 (basically the same as T400, only bit thicker)

Pros:

• Pretty fast CPU
  - It sure is!
• Pretty fast HDD (320gb 7200 RPM)
  - my R400 had 7200rpm too, felt no difference
• Overall good performing laptop - faster than T61
  - it was good performing and it was indeed faster than R400 for certain tasks where CPU was deciding component, in everyday web browsing or document typing you could not tell a difference.
• Good level of ports available
  - yes, loved T410 over R400 for that, stuffed with goodies-ports!

Cons:

• The keyboard is much worse than T61, the keys don't have the same feel.
  - Keyboards on R400 and T61 are bit different, cant comment on that tho, but the one on my T410 felt snappier and quieter than the one on my R400. Opinions and preferences may warry, its subjective matter on R400 vs T410 for me here.
• The trackpad is terrible
  -I find that trackpad on T410 is much better than the one I had on R400, bigger, multi-touch capability, felt better to the touch. Sure, its subjective thing.
• The centre pointer is also located in an awkward position making it much less ergonomic to use than T60s, T40s... my right finger is hurting like HELL after 3-days of use
  -I found trackpoint buttons better and more ergonomic and easier to press on R400 than on T410, R400 wins hands down.
• Location of ports are awkward, it doesn't make any sense
  -cant comment on this, probably depends on what peripheals you use to notice some drawbacks.
• Screen is HORRENDOUS (I got the 1440*990), the viewing angle is just terrible, and it's incredibly dim, with really bad text quality. I miss my T60 screen despite not being *LED*
  -The screen on T410 was brighter than R400, however, not super bright, I expected it to be brighter. Viewing angles are crap on both. Both had 1440x900 screens.
• The docking stations for T60/T61 doesn't match T410
  -well this should come as no surprise given that T410 is generations ahead of T61, thus in years they do change docking connector, you were uninformed, no way to blame Lenovo here for that.
• BRAND NEW Battery lasts ONLY 2-2.5hrs, despite having Core i5! T61 battery when new could go for 4-5hrs!
  -what kind of battery you have and what are your usage patterns? I did find 9 cell battery life to be lacking on T410, given that its higher capacity than the one I had on R400 they both fared equally, I expected T410 9-cell to beat R400 9 cell by an hour or two, but they were practically identical. Blame Intel I suppose, beacause Arrandale came out only faster than Core 2 Duo, not cooler, not longer lasting.
• The case is CHEAP, it does NOT have the same feel as other thinkpads, I've owned all Thinkpads from T40, T41, T60, T60p, T61. ALL were much better quality all around.
  -I did find LCD rubber coating on my T410 more plastick-feeling and cheaper than the one on R400 that I had.
  LCD cover also didnt have any kind of roll cage in it, which I found disappointing, now its back on T420 tho.
  CPU was loud with its annoying high pitched noise and constantly running on 3500+ rpms, big Intel and Lenovo thermal system FAIL. R400 was silent and even if fan ramped up to 3000 rpms it was much quieter and not annoying and obtrusive.
• Despite the new CPU, and technologies, the notebook is actually THICKER than before! This is unbelievable!
  -Agree, it remained as thin/thick as T400 before it and only couple mm thinner than R400 that I had.

All the positives of this laptop is the result of Intel and new STANDARD technologies offered in ALL new computers, and NOTHING with Lenovo's implementation.
-Kind of agree, as Ive said it before in other threads, I would be really pissed if I had spent 1000+$ on T410, but since I received it as replacement for my lemon R400 I didnt complain much.
Id still get ThinkPad/EliteBook/Latitude over regular non-business class laptops due to somewhat better support (hit and miss) and better parts availability at ebay+ThinkPad community kicks butt here

 

Man, I am a DIE HARD Thinkpad user for the last 7years, I always recommended them but this last iteration is the worst ever since 2004!

The reason I am pissed is how much I cared about Thinkpads and how terrible the implementation has been, WHY fix something that's not borken?

LOL! Whatever dude... I've ONLY had Thinkpads for the last 7 years and I LOVED THEM ALL!

I did also DISCLOSE I never owned T400, but review was really bad with POOR keyboard support, go READ!

Also, I just STATED the docking station as a "con" but that's not my biggest gripe, it's all other items, SPECIALLY trackpad, screen, quality of materials, battery and SCREEN that's the biggest shortcoming.

TOTALLY FAIR!

I agree, and that's what I said, they've brought the cost down and hence quality has gone down with it. It comes down to expectations I guess. I wouldn't mind if they did that in other series, but T-series for me is "premium" and price point could be closer to MacBook and I wouldn't care to pay for it.

Not sure how T420 is different, but T410 battery is WORSE for some odd reason... and definitely the case is inferior and quality is inferior to T61. I however agree the laptop is faster due to new CPU, platform.

Thanks man! At least someone else who's not biased here!

Laptop is being returned. Our company supplier has 30-days return policy so BYE BYE T410!

It's a company laptop, we got a choice of a few suppliers, I read the T400 review and it was not that good, most other reviews were on T410S which I didn't have as an option.... I thought to stick to true and tested Thinkpads of the last 7years, but to my disappointment it was a complete failure (apart from CPU).

Thanks man, 100% AGREED!

I guess there are different expectatins. To me, the T-series should be at the price point of MacBook, with THE SAME QUALITY... they can cheapen out the other series, and I got no issues with it.

For people who wanted to own a T-series under a $1000, T410 is a good option I guess... but for BUSINESS users who were used to all older Thinkpads with higher quality and materials, and they CAN AFFORD $1500-$2000 for a laptop, this is a BIG DOWNGRADE.

Hey Roger, T410 is an OK laptop for what it is, and for the price.. my review is for T410 vs. older Thinkpads and how they were used to be built and at a different price point. Its screen though is worse than cheaper laptops!

 

Why fix something that isn't broke? Because laptops are getting cheaper. ThinkPads wouldn't sell half as much if it was twice the price of the competition. I've used IBM ThinkPads and Lenovo ones, and honestly I don't think there was much drop in quality. Maybe you got a dud, stuff happens man. Also realize ThinkPads cost half as much as they were back when IBM owned ThinkPad. You can't get faster and cheaper without sacrificing quality.

I can tell you I don't like the E series Latitudes over the D series Latitudes. I understand where you are coming from but next time just don't post in such a flaming manner.

 

?

Where do you get all this stuff from? I stated EXACTLY WHY this laptop has failed to impress me, COMPARED TO OLDER thinkpads and EVERY point I made is ACCURATE and you GOT NO counter point to ANY of THEM!!!

I've been as fair as I can be, and have stated T410 for a Consumer laptop is *pretty ok*, however, as an old time Thinkpad loyal customer, it fails a PREMIUM BUSINESS LAPTOP and that's HOW IT IS POSITIONED in the market! Look at Mac! They charge a premium and everyone's dying to pay the extra$$ for premium perceived quality (debatable), I always thought Thinkpad is the only alternative to MacBook quality, but DEFINITELY that is NOT THE CASE ANYMORE!

Well,that's EXACTLY what is going on.

Thinkpad T-series WAS the BUSINESS GRADE laptop, mostly purchased by businesses (i.e. me) and mostly out of price point of consumers... they've brought the price down and something had to suffer as a result.

So, maybe it's a positivie from general consumer perspective, while a negative from business perspective (cost not being as big of a factor).

 

I wish --maybe I could quit my day job.

When this is the overall tone your posts take though, you can see how some people in this forum might think your original post was a troll, especially with the low post count. It happens here plenty often; someone comes into the Lenovo forums, shouts a thread title about how a particular ThinkPad bites, or is a lemon, and then grabs some popcorn and watches the fur fly.

Sometimes that person is just someone who is initially upset, and calms down. By then though, there are several posts across the first page of the forums by a few people whose first response was to shout how a product sucked, rather than to think a little before posting. Not a great impression to give first-time visitors seeking advice or help.

 

Fair enough, I think I was so disappointed, with PAIN in my finger from the new trackpoint that made me sound like I am trolling, but honestly if I didnt care about Thinkpads, I wouldn't have been as upset... it's like when you find out the new Porsche you bought has gone down in quality vs. your old Porsche... if you've NEVER owned a Porsche before, it'd probably be just fantastic!

PS. Maybe we all should get paid, I am sure Lenovo Product management group's job is getting easier reviewing these threads!

Well, they can sell Thinkpads in different series, keep the lower quality items for Consumer grade, keep the costs down and sell em through right channels.

THEN, keep the PREMIUM brand (for me it's been T-series) for business users and purchasers who don't mind the extra $200 cost!

 

Guys, thanks for all of your feedback and help and apologies for maybe emotional posts.

I've been such a loyal Thinkpad user which I got really disappointed with the new T410 as I expected it to deliver more.

I've contacted our supplier and will be RETURNING it.

I am now totally not sure what to replace it with. I got T510, X201 as options... X220 looks like a great option but we haven't got it via our supplier yet . T510 looks like to have a better screen, however, the trackpad looks to be the same which will cause me pain.

I am highly debating a MacBook, but at work we don't have a Win-7 build for it, and gotto use the annoying Mac OS... so kinda stuck but will let you know if I got another Lenovo and how it compares!

Cheers!

 

OP scares me. I'm getting a T420 and I hear it's similar. I need a keyboard I can type fast on without the added annoyance of an island keyboard's spaced keys.

 

Just don't buy blind, try one somewhere before purchase.

Keyboard still is one of the best, just the *feel* and quality has gone down compared to T40/T60. I personally dont like the new layout, but that may not matter to you. To me the biggest problem with keyboard is the trackpad and the way it's positioned vs. the mouse buttons. Otherwise it's still one of the best laptop keyboard implementations.

 

Wish I could try it. Don't have any B&Ms in my area for many miles. SF tends very anti-B&M.

 

I will be honest; the T420 keyboard is not as good as the T60 keyboard I was using with my T400 ThinkPad (note: that was, however, the best laptop keyboard I've ever used.

It's still a decent keyboard. The keys just have almost a little too much throw, especially the spacebar. That said, I can still type plenty fast on it, I am now, and I can do 75-90wpm on a good keyboard (like my beloved IBM Model M).

 

Throw? What do you mean by that?

Damn. I think my typing has substantially improved over the past few weeks as I've been reexamining my typing style. Just took a free online typing test and got 104 wpm on myHP Envy. Contrast that with 60wpm last semester on this same notebook.

I'm going to have to test out the T420 when it arrives. I'm thinking carefully now and wondering whether my slowness in typing notes in class might be just due to the way I'm processing my prof's lecture information. I tend to take time to synthesize stuff. Still doesn't explain why when I'm typing something down, I seem to take unusually long.

 

Interesting to see these comments on the newer Thinkpads.

I'm still chugging away with my T61 (has been my everyday laptop since I bought it in the very beginning of 2008), and has preformed flawlessly. As far as I know, the newer Thinkpads (the T series in specific) should still have the rubberized lid, roll cage, etc. so in essence quality should not have changed that much. Then again, my newest Thinkpad I bought was a brand new X301 back in late 2009, and that was a SUPER expensive machine and I guess the expression goes "you get what you pay for".

I don't plan on buying another Thinkpad for at least another 2-3 years and by then the new ones will make the T61 look ancient

 

X301 is probably the BEST small Thinkpad ever made (in terms of construction/keyboard) the CPU is kinda week for today's standards... 13" is JUST PERFECT size screen... I've yet to see X220, but reviews are great and screen should be nice, still a tad too small for me at 12.5".

 

While I agree that the spacebar is a little too forgiving, I actually feel the opposite: the T420's keyboard is a much better fit for my typing style. After adjusting to the T420 keyboard (and comparing it to an equivalent point in my T6x usage) I don't find myself bottoming out my strokes nearly as much as I did on the T6x keyboards.

To the OP: with all due respect, you come across as a first class troll.

I've used ThinkPads since the mid 90s, and in the last year alone have used a 600X, T41, T43p, numerous T6x-series machines, a T400, a T500, an X300, X40, X61, X200, X201, T410, and T420. The T410 is, simply put, just another ThinkPad. Parts of it are better than previous ThinkPads, parts are worse.

It's also a little telling that you got so many basic facts wrong, particularly those pertaining to the materials used in the machine's construction. Such errors make me wonder whether or not you're "finding what you're looking for": you've convinced yourself that the notebook is "cheap" and "using low quality materials" so -- come hell or high water -- you're gonna find evidence of that.

Now I'm feeling rather generous -- ok, scratch that, it's raining outside and I've got nothing better to do while I wait for a build -- so I'll respond to some of your more... creative criticisms:

What about them do you find awkward? The placement of the USB ports on the side? The placement of the VGA port on the side?

The placement of some of the USB ports, for example, is quite a bit more convenient (at least for me) than their placement on previous generations.

Unless your T60 had a FlexView screen, I have trouble believing this. Actually, I believe that *you* think that -- but I have trouble believing that's actually the case. I've used all of the TN panels that shipped with T60s, and the panel on my T410 is simply not that bad. IMO, the viewing angles are worse than the TMD SXGA+ panel, but my T410's panel is definitely brighter. It's brighter on paper (check the datasheets if you don't believe me) and it's brighter in practice. As far as "really bad text quality"... well... I don't know what else to say other than to tell you that I spend many, many hours every day in an IDE on my T410. If the text quality were "really bad", I wouldn't be content doing that. I am. It's not.

And? The docking station design for the T4x series doesn't match the T6x series. The docking designs change over time. This is not a new practice nor is it one unique to the T410.

My T410's BRAND NEW 6-cell battery lasted for about 3-4 hours of casual use (browsing, BT off, etc.)

Of course without knowing what you're doing and how the machine is set up, statements like yours and mine are virtually useless.

You're right, it doesn't have the same feel. The base, however, is made of the same material as previous generations: CFRP.

The only substantial change in materials from previous generations was the removal of the lid "roll cage" (and, if you're comparing to the T60 and previous generations, the change from magnesium alloy lids to lids comprised of plastic covering a magnesium frame).

All plastic. Except for the parts that are carbon fiber composite materials. And except for the magnesium frame. That part's not plastic either.

You know what was all plastic? The R40 -- one of those good ol' IBM machines from back before the Chinese came and "cheaped it all up" with their fancy-schmancy carbon fiber and their high-falutin' magnesium -- that one had a case made entirely of ABS.

The design was basically the same.

Well, except for the base material. And the roll cage that was added, that was different. Oh, and I guess the keyboard drains were a Lenovo addition too. But other than that, it was the same.

Why indeed? I found myself wondering that when the T60 introduced changes to the button design, some... uh... five years ago.

Ok, but before that it was the same. I mean, the T4x series design had been there for, like, for ever! I mean, just look -- it was the same all the way back to the first Think... Wait, what's that? The 600X and T20 series used another, different button layout? Oh.

One last thing about the TrackPoint buttons: the buttons are now 0.1" closer to the TrackPoint than they were on the T60 keyboard (measured from the center of the TrackPoint nub to the edge of the button plastic nearest to the user.) If that's a HORRIBLE, WORSE, PAINFUL change for you, you are more sensitive than most.

Yeah, it's obvious that they used a cheaper supplier.

Obvious, that is, until you actually check out who the supplier was, and see that it was one of the same companies which Lenovo has used for many, many years now.

Actually, cost is a major factor for businesses. Lenovo knows this well, hence the design of their product lineup.

 

@ThinkRob... I guess you gotto get out more when it rains!

Cost to business is NOT as big a deal as to consumers, that's very known fact. We can order MacBook of $2000 if we wanted. Businesses rather have a reliable laptop that lasts and doesn't cause issues and helps productivity rather than $100 saving per laptop!

 

Throw = the distance travelled from the top of a keystroke to the bottom. A keyboard should have some; I hate many chiclet keyboards because they have almost no travel at all, and many (there are exceptions) feel cheap; Dell's Vostro 3500 is an example of a keyboard that would drive me nuts over time, even though the rest of the laptop is good.

As I said, the T420 keyboard is still a decent keyboard. To me, the feel of the T60 keyboard is just more solid, the space bar in particular. Know that you're also talking to someone who thinks the IBM Model-M remains the pinnacle of keyboards, so I like a firm touch.

A laptop is the sum of its parts. The T420 keyboard would not deter me from buying one, and I'm typing on it now just fine and enjoying the laptop. It outranks the majority of laptop keyboards on the market, and the TrackPoint is as good as it's ever been.

Back on topic --just wanted to clarify.

 

The One True Keyboard?

Personally, I'm a fan of the some of the older Model Ms which can offer a slightly action -- but I agree, the Model M is a great keyboard. That and some of the early Apple desktop keyboards are my favorite.

 

Model M definitely is a gold standard in what a real keyboard should be.

 

It's one of the reasons I don't buy desktop mainboards that don't have two PS/2 ports still (chuckle). That, and I have a PS/2 KVM for when I need to work on someone's system at home.

Until I got a newer Optiplex at work (I'm currently using a Dell Bluetooth keyboard and mouse their one model that had decent key action) I was still using one from November 1990 (it caused some odd issues, I think PS/2 power draw on it is a little higher than some newer equipment). I think my one at home dates from `91, coincidentally the year I graduated high school.

Also the only keyboard you can drop out of a three-story window, walk down to the pavement, pick up, put back on any keys that popped off, plug the cord back in (detachable cords, another great invention) and start using it again. That's assuming you don't get arrested for battery because it hit someone on the head before it reached the pavement.

 

I've typed on quite a few of the M variants, and currently have an M13 hooked up to my workstation. That's actually my least favorite of the Ms that I have. My favorite is a well-worn pre-Lexmark one with a fairly light activation energy (due to spring wear) and tons and tons of software-specific labels plastered all over most of the keys. What can I say... I like my keyboards to have character.

I'm actually looking for keyboards with Cherry switches to try -- so if you have any recommendations I'd love to hear them!

 

Those keyboards are pretty noisy as I recall. Love the action but still.

 

It clicks, so you know it works. That's what we always used to say.

It also had the benefit of proving to people you were really working hard on something --or annoying someone else you didn't like from a room or two away.

 

If you like buckling-spring keyboards, you can still buy them new from these guys:

IBM keyboards, clicky keyboard, model m keyboards

These new models are not quite Model M's: Aluminum plate instead of steel and I don't think you can remove the keys. On the plus side: USB, they have the full 104 key layout and available in Not White.

They also have a trackpoint model.

 

Here's my beef with people that frown upon the plastic used in Thinkpads/Dell's, etc and rave about Macbooks. Macbooks are well made, I won't deny it, but the aluminum kills me. Have you ever notices how people carry their macbooks around? They have them in sleeves ALL THE TIME. Aluminum sure sounds great, until you actually have to use it in a rugged environment, or until you drop it.

It scratches, and it isn't forgiving, so all the kinetic energy of a drop, goes to the internals. I just throw my Thinkpad in a bag..... after all these years, it looks pretty good still. Macbooks that have been tossed around tend to take on some pretty good scratches.

Other long term negatives are the integrated battery and sealed design. I hate integrated batteries. Great on form factor, terrible on you wanting to have a laptop that lasts a long time much past 2-3 years. I have some Thinkpads in my house that are 3-4 years old. I love that I can just pop on a new one. If a keyboard is showing signs of wear.... snap on a new one! Piece of cake.

Lastly, by the time you add up the cost of a macbook + the cost of buying windows and virtualization software.... it's just not worth it to me.

I like Apple products for devices where fully integrated/sealed is more appropriate (ie iPad, iPhone).... I just can't buy into their laptops. It's all highly subjective however. Good luck with whatever avenue you take.

 

I use the G80-3000 with click switches everywhere (got 4 of them).
The only catch: the Made in Germany ones are great, the ones made in Czech Republic(IIRC the country) are not. The Czech ones are lighter, not as stable and squeak quite a bit, feel cheaper by a whole lot.

I customized one of them, replaced all its white keys with black ones I had lying around from a linear black G80-3000. It looks pretty cool, and feels very different, refreshing.

Anyway, that would be my recommendation, the G80-3000 clicky cklicky click.

 

Prior to the unibody design, case dings and dents were a bigger deal than the scratches.

I looked at picking up a final-rev Powerbook G4 aluminum several years back, or an early Intel model, used. The ones selling for fair prices (as opposed to what people "thought" they had to be worth because they were a Mac) had dings on the corners, or near the PC card slot, where they had been dropped or bumped hard against something.

 

Though much regret and anger were involved in the event which gave me this knowledge, I can speak from first-hand experience when I say that the unibody machines aren't very tough when it comes to impact -- even fairly low-level drops can cause them to deform, and the screen is *especially* vulnerable.

I'll pick one up.

Did you ever use an Apple Extended Keyboard way back in the 90s? If so, do you know of any keyboard with the same feel?

 

I just want to say I'm loving the discussion about old keyboards. I find myself wondering how this thread started going in that direction. Whatever you do, though, don't stop.

Also, RabidBeaver, thanks for the link to that great keyboard store. Beautiful. =)

 

Nope, never tried one, sorry. Actually back in the early '90s I didn't even have a PC, too poor to afford one. Everything I had was a Commodore clone back then.

 

Actually, perhaps a mod could split this keyboard stuff into a separate thread in the Off Topic forum or something? I'd love to keep discussing it (especially since I don't think I'd be able to drag everyone here over to GeekHack ) but I don't want to clog this thread.