New T410 - i5-540 - WORST THINKPAD EVER!

I got the SO an ABS M1 mechanical-switch keyboard back when they were on sale at NewEgg for a ridiculously low $20 with free shipping (normally double that)

ABS's M1 mechanical keyboard - The Tech Report - Page 1

Not as good as a Model M, but a bargain for the price. Also USB and with Windows keys.

Of course, if you want to have your cake and eat it too, Unicomp bought the buckling-spring design from Lexmark and makes the Customizer 104, which can come in USB or PS2, and has the Windows keys. At $79 for a keyboard, they aren't cheap, but one will probably last the remainder of your life. I occasionally debate picking one up, but then I'll need to get a USB KVM as well, and look into replacing my beloved Logitech MX-1000 cordlless laser mouse (perhaps the last great PS/2 adaptable cordless mouse made)

Customizer 104/105

 

Ok, so today returned the T410 to our supplier, and got my old T61 back until I decide what laptop I get as replacement (any suggestions)?

Since I had to transfer some files BACK to my old laptop, I had them both side-by-side for a while. I was at work, otherwise I'd take some pics, etc... for comparison... so here's a bit more 1-to-1 comparo, although it doesn't really matter as T61 is discontinued.

Ok... here we go:

• 1. The MATERIAL: it is DEFINITELY much better on T61, specially the LCD cover/top of the laptop. The T61 has a bit more shine, more metal feel texture, and sturdier with less flex. I read that with T410 (and maybe T400), they have changed used more plastic and it is definitely true. Other plastic all around is similar, T410 a bit more grayish with cheaper feel and less shine. T61 deinitely higher quality.
• 2. Weight. T61 IS LIGHTER with 9-cell battery than T410 with 6-cell battery! THAT WAS A SHOCKER. Disclosure, it was just me weighing it in my hands and not with a scale.
• 3. Size/shape: T61 is a few mm thinner, and overall has a less bulkier feel to it. The edges are sharper, less bevelled and even from a distance looks bulkier than T61. T410 also have quite a few weird angles to accomodate eSata and other ports but T61 is rectangular all around and looks a lot slicker.
• 4. Keyboard: I LOVE that I got my T61 keyboard back! It is SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER! The feedback of the keys is so much more responsive, it makes it much easier to type. It has less flex and the keyboard material is far superior, it is of a smoother plastic, more expensive type and a bit shinier.
• 5. LCD hinges, open/close. This is a bit of toss-up. To me, the T61 feels more solid with less give, although the T410 has the larger hinges on both sides, but it had more flex. I however definitely like how T61 latch opens up.
• 6. LCD Screen Brightness: I was wrong! T410 IS BRIGHTER at highest setting... HOWEVER, it comes at a significant contrast loss and over saturation. T61 at highest setting is dimmer, however, it definitely has better contrast and it holds it contrast much much better over the range of brightness. Like with the T410 LED (1440*900), there's a sweet spot at 2-3 levels lower than max brightness when the screen has decent contrast/saturation, however, anything above or below loses the contrast significantly and makes it much more straining on eyes. T61 (1280*800) screen although not as bright, it holds its contrast much better over the range of backlight and therefore superior IMO.
• 7. LCD viewing angle. HANDS DOWN T61! Specially in horizontal viewing, I had to juggle around the angle of the LCD to my eyes ALL THE TIME to get a good viewing angle. T61 is much much better in that regard. Side viewing is just about the same on both.
• 8. Trackpoint: AH, I missed my T61 trackpoint. I HAVE NO IDEA what they've done. It looks the same, feels like the same general area, but it's definitely harder to use. I think the culprit is the stupid CURVE on the buttons under the space.
• 9. Trackpad: Again, T61 is much better, although smaller. I HATE THE new textured crap on T410... what were they thinking?!
• 10. Performance: HANDS DOWN T410, the combination of i5, 4gb RAM, and 7200RPM 320gb HDD makes it must zippier, files are loaded faster and overall its definitely a faster computer. T61 with Core 2 duo, is still pretty good for my use, the windows boot is slower and some larger programs take a bit longer to load. I added another 2gb of RAM and it helps.
• 11. Battery life:THIS IS WEIRD... my T61 had over 4-5hrs of battery life when new, although I had 9-cell. T410 with 6-cell is SUPPOSED TO BE just as good as T61 with 9-cell according to Lenovo, however, with MEDIUM screen brightness and lowered CPU powered, etc... mine lasts only 2.5hrs doing OFFICE WORK, no video, DVD, etc... that is NOT acceptable IMO. I could have had a bad battery as it should definitely be better due to new i5?!
• 12. CPU temp: I added this one as T410 is better, it doesn't run as hot where the CPU is located. T61 if used on your lap will get slightly warm at the heatsink area, but it never gets hot. So, T410 better in this area.
• 13. Speakers: T410 sound quality of speakers are better for sure as they're much larger. HOWEVER, the speaker grill is cloth and in JUST ONE WEEK it had all sorts of dust and crap stuck on it... I am not sure if it can be cleaned, but if used for a few mos, I am 100% sure it'd look pretty nasty.
• 14. Overall: While T410 is definitely a faster laptop using the latest technologies (eStata, USB 3, etc...), T61 is a BETTER laptop for Business, office, traveler use. It has better usable screen, keyboard, trackpad, materials, size, and weight. I am not gonna say better battery life, because I think my T410 might be an exception.

So, I am quite happy that I got my T61 back for now, making my life easier. I however need to upgrade very soon as these are now out of warranty.

A few questions for folks:

• For ones who compared T420 to T410, ANY of the above issues have been addressed in T420? I saw one review which was much favorable to T420, while their review of T410 was just as negative as mine.
• Can you change T410/T420 keyboard to T61? Does it match?
• How is T420 LED screen? It looks like pretty much similar to T410 (hence subpar) just it is 16*9. It sure looks like the Lenovo with good screen is X220 now
• If you had to pick between T420 and X220, which would you pick? I definitely think X220 is a better one for me, I am just a bit worried about 12.5" screen size as this is my main laptop and I use it for all sorts of things
• Anyone's ever compared T420/X220 keyboard and trackpad to T410?

Cheers!

 

For the X220 reviews they will start flowing in on Monday. That's when the first batch gets received But that's for those that paid for 2-3 day shipping and lucky ones that might live near KY. Others will receive them it seems Tue-Thur. So add a couple days for people to get a feel for them, and you will probably have a LOT of input by next weekend

 

Thanks. I SOOOOOO WANTED it to have 13" screen! It'd been PERRFECT if it did, it looks like it has actually ROOM on the same chasis for 13". 13" is absolutely THE PERFECT size for a business laptop.

Or... I wish they offered an IPS screen for T420. Not sure why they go with CRAPPY screens on T4xx, I just read the review of T420 and despite almost everything improved over T410, the screen looks to be worse!

 

Don't believe everything you read.

Half of the people that are griping are doing so because of the new 16:9 aspect ratio. While I agree I'd rather have 16:10, nobody has 16:10. Dell, HP, and every other vendor (except for Apple currently, though it's likely they'll be forced to change eventually) are at the mercy of LCD panel vendors. If 16:10 is what you have to have, you'll have to stick with a generation-old ThinkPad T410 or Dell Latitude E6410; you'll have to get a 15" Macbook Pro if you want 16:10 and Sandy Bridge architecture.

The other half are talking about the display itself in terms of brightness, contrast, and in some cases, a perceived grainy quality. I have a T420 in front of me with the 1600x900 HD+ display. It's miles better than the T400 display in terms of brightness and contrast. I could see what looks like a slight grained texture if I put my eyes 4-6 inches from the screen, which of course, is a distance nobody views their screen from. At a foot to a foot and a half, that is completely invisible.

I won't say that it's a perfect display; viewing angle still requires pivoting the display from time to time, though less than my T400 so far. I will say it's head and shoulders above the T61 (15" 1280x800) and T400 (14" 1440x900) I have owned, and it's just fine for everyday use. After having my T420 for nearing a week, I'm happy to say I see no reason to send it back and order a T520, something all of the reports were making me fear I'd need to do.

P.S. With no disrespect intended, I think you love your ThinkPad T61 so much you won't like anything new. New means change sometimes, and I think every minor deviation is just enough that it will add up to something you don't like. While I can be as resistant to change as the next person, the changes from the T400 to the T420 are ones I'm willing to adjust to. Some I like, such as the really solid palmrest. Some are slightly off, but very usable; I liked the T60 keyboard I had on my T400 better, but the T420 keyboard is perfectly usable, and I'm fine with it. Also, I don't mind the dimpled trackpad aside from side-scrolling, but I'm a Trackpoint user primarily, so no biggie, and while the curved Trackpoint buttons are different than the T61 and T400, they are also usable; they are much more like the earlier Thinkpads, I'm guessing people wanted them back.

If you're not a person who adjusts well to minor changes here and there, I wouldn't buy a T420, and I wouldn't buy an X220 until I'd tested it up close.

 

1. Because CCFL screens are no longer the norm, the laptop design no longer needed to prevent flex to protect the bulb. Plastic became more suitable for this design, and the lack of metal would greatly improve wireless signals.

2. I'm pretty sure this is just outright not true. Guessing weight is pretty subjective especially considering weight distribution. My T400's apparent weight changes depending on which hand I use and where I grab the laptop.

3. See point 1. A thicker lid means they can use the extra space to accomodate and cushion impacts. People also want more ports.

4. This should be more or less fixed with the T420.

5. Lid flex: Point 1 and 3.

8. The TrackPoint in my experience seems to take a while to break in. Each system also requires different sensitivity and speed settings to match the same feeling.

9. The texture was a result of a bunch of usability testing. I found it to be a definite improvement over smooth touchpads.

11. If you had the discrete T410 and didn't make any effort to underclock the GPU, then the battery life sounds about right. IIRC, The 9-cell is also double the capacity of the 6-cell.

14. Think cost. How much did the T61 cost then? How much does a T410 cost now?



The keyboard and touchpad on the T420 are identical to those found on the T410, but the chassis is supposed to better accommodate the perforated keyboard to minimize flex. The new keyboards (enlarged Esc/Del) and the old keyboards are not interchangeable.

 

Guess alot of the con on the T420 is due to personal preference, I am still have my eye set on the X220. It would be great if the new X1 would have a HD+ IPS screen, I might be let down once again like the screen on the T420.

 

Some good points... my beef is WHY they wouldn't offer an IPS screen on T420 AS AN OPTION?! From what I read, T420 has improved upon T410 in most of the areas I've mentioned above, APART FROM Display! Yes, there's more resolution but that may or may not be considered an improvement,and I think I can live with 16:9, I usually move my taskbar to the left hand side to make up more room... however, what REALLY bugs me is that a 2011 LCD display being WORSE than a display on my 2006 T60 display (the flexview)! I understand if they wanna keep costs low for *certain* markets, however, for a business user they MUST offer an upgrade option!

I am gonna test drive an X220 next week to see if I like it (we're getting one in), ALL specs, specially screen seems fantastic, I am just not too hot about 12.5" as it's not just for my traveling, I use this laptop for all sorts of tasks.

Yeah, I like my T61 (not love), but I actually liked my T60 better with 4:3 ratio and flexview, yes it was slower, etc... but when writing office docs, code, presentations, working in airport/plane, etc... Laptop SCREEN, and Keyboard is #1 items you interact with and must be top notch!

 

I think the FlexView is perhaps a bit of an unfair comparison. It's probably the best screen ever offered on a mainstream notebook. Look at what Lenovo's competitors are offering. Do you see anything significantly better? Sure, there's a few ridiculously expensive workstations being offered with IPS screens, but right now, Lenovo stands alone in offering one on a mainstream affordable notebook and they should be congratulated for it.

The people at Lenovo are pretty smart. If they could offer a T420 with an IPS screen and turn a buck, they probably would, but things are rarely that simple. There are any plausible number of reason that could be holding this up, supply and cost probably being two of the larger ones. For every post like this lament the lack of good screens, there at least 10 asking how to get the best deals. Sometimes things take time. Hopefully, in the future, you'll get your wish.

 

Well, honestly, most of the other laptops I've reviewed even the consumer ones have a BETTER viewing angle!

Even if they can't provide an IPS for extra $$, should have a better option available to the current HD and HD+. I think they're thinking consumers are just dumb, care ONLY about "#of pixels" so going to 1600*900 is *an upgrade* while it could actually yield a lower quality screen with lower usable viewing angles!

PS. X220 an exception btw!

 

While that may seem like a reasonable guess to you, that's not what they're thinking. They've bloody well explained what they were thinking numerous times -- pretty much every time that this comes up in the comments on their blogs.

It's really simple: corporate purchases are their bread and butter. Corporate purchasers don't give a toss about contrast ratios, viewing angles, etc. provided the screen is functional. Corporate purchasers *do* care about price, even the $50/unit difference between a low and mid-range TN panel.

Astounding though it may be, Lenovo doesn't operate on the basis of what makes forum posters happy. It's not that they think you're dumb, alexb1, but rather that you buy a couple thousand too few laptops per year for your opinion to matter.

 

This is how you end up with notebooks like the X120e. It's functional and cheap.

Most notebook display these are junk, as has been the case through notebook history. Sure there's been standout LCDs like the FlexViews or Fujitsu used to offer some MVA LCDs back in the day, but those were exceptions rather than the norm. You think Dell or HP displays are significantly better? None that I've seen are. The best TN displays offered right now, say the MacBook Pro or the Dell RGBLED have nice contrast ratios, but won't come close to the angles offered on a IPS or PVA display.

This is why the X220 rocks. You're getting a awesome display on a mainstream notebook. I'm hopeful as Lenovo figures out how to do this on the X220, it'll filter down to other ThinkPads, but things take time.

Also being here skews the perspective. It would seem from being here, a lot of people want good LCDs. People who are paying for their own notebook probably want good displays and that's the people who frequent this forum, but that's not Lenovo's main customer base. Lenovo's biggest customers, as ThinkRob alluded, care most about cost and compatibility. The number of Lenovo's customers who care about good LCDs aren't enough to move the market, even though being here, it would seem otherwise.

 

Right you are!

As someone who's spent a hell of a lot of time researching various LCDs in my constant search for mod candidates, I can safely say that there really aren't that many non-TN options out there in *any* form factor. The ones that are available in standard laptop resolutions/sizes tend to be single source solutions, i.e. it would be difficult for Lenovo to ship machines that used one of several equivalent panels. An example of this would be the 12.1" WXGA form factor: Lenovo *could* have offered a "FlexView" option if they were willing to go with Hydis and only Hydis. Sure, CMO had an MVA option -- one that was better than the Hydis AFFS in many regards -- but it had a different connector, different pinout, and slightly different dimensions.

I think the reason that the X220 comes with an IPS option is that LG et al. 1) are already making the panels 2) the X220 and X220 tablet have the same form factor, and the latter requires it. Basically, the circumstances were such that it cost Lenovo virtually nothing to make the IPS panel an option for the X220.