New T500 - Keybard is back to being garbage

Well the T500 we got in January, was wonderful. The T500 we got last week, not so much. The keyboard has a lot of flex in it. If I press the F9 key I get one to two millimeters depression on plastic around the power button. I get the same amount elsewhere on the keyboard (Ehter key, etc).

I called technical support, and they sent out another mushy keyboard. Mark Lenovo on the lenovo forums says the problem is "solved" from their point of view. Any comments from anyone here on this topic? At this point the T500 is going back, and we are going to be switching to another vendor unless this still is resolved.

 

Do you have the old or new keyboard?

 

im fearful now, i just got a new t400 and im scared of the same thing..i pressed a few buttons and I don't notice any flex, but then again how noticeable is this "flex"?

 

Why are you fearful if you don't notice anything....

 

Can you take a picture of the replacement keyboard??

If it has lots of holes in the bottom, then it is the weight reduced version that originally shipped with the T400/T500 (the one that was prone to flex). If it doesn't have these holes, then it is the T61 keyboard and should not flex (replacements are supposed to be of the T61 variety).

Also, if possible you should check the keyboard manufacturer. Lenovo uses three different manufacturers (NMB, ALPS, Chicony), and some people find NMB keyboards "mushy" (although a lot of people prefer them because they are far quieter).

 

Hasn't Lenovo introduced a new design of some sort that's supposed to eliminate this problem? They ended the keyboard replacement program becuase of a design change that was supposed to make different keyboard brands a non-issue.

I see three possibilities

a) You received a 'weight-saving' (read: flex-making) keyboard
b) You received a T61 version keyboard and it's an NMB-Chicony-Alps issue
c) You received one of the machines shipped with the latest design, and it doesn't behave as advertised

When did you order your machine?

 

Can you give us the FRUs of the keyboard.

 

Wow, this is upsetting news. I was going to order a T500, however, if the keyboard flex problem is back, I'll hold off again.

 

I can't find his post right now, but Mark_Lenovo reported that Lenovo has implemented some support struts in the T400 & T500 bodies that would supposedly eliminate flex regardless of the keyboard. That's too bad if that didn't turn out with favorable results :/

 

My wife and I received our computers (T400 and T500) last Friday. My T400 came with the "mushy" keyboard (42T3937). My wife's T500 came with the alternate T61 keyboard (42T3143). There is a night and day difference between the feel of the keyboards. I can type about 100wpm w/ her T500 and only about 60wpm w/ the T400 keyboard. My T400 keyboard gives terrible feedback.

 

I was going to order the T400 tonight but hearing this, just makes me want to wait again...How long am I going to have to wait ...The shipping dates aren't good either (here in Canada it's 4-6 weeks)

 

Before you rush to judgment, you might want to read Kevin's updated evaluation of the T400. He thought the keyboard was much improved.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=368755

 

I have no idea what Slugur is talking about. The keyboard on the T400 I received about a week ago is plenty stiff. Even if it is slightly more flexible than the T61 keyboard, I honestly can't see how that could cause a drop of 40wpm in typing speed. I think Kevin's evaluation is very accurate. It bows a little from strong pressure (obviously, more pressure than is typically used for typing), and the left and right side seem to flex more than the center, but it's really not a big deal.

 

What keyboard do you have, the solid metal-back keyboard, or the newer varient with the holes in the backing?

 

I'm beginning to wonder if people have the flex issue too much in their head and it is only effecting them because they think it is effecting them. My T400 originally came with the weight reduced keyboard and without the support on left side (manufactured 09/08). Yeah, it wasn't as solid...but I wasn't about to chuck it out the window, write lenovo off completely etc. I did opt to get it replaced, but if I didn't I still would be satisfied with my purchase. To me, the flex wasn't that bad...noticeable, but not THAT bad. I just fail to see how 1-2 mm (that is right...MILIMETERS) of flex reduces typing speed by 40%. Maybe it is just me, but I think people blow it out of porportion.

P.S. before people throw the book at me and claim I never typed on a real thinkpad, my first thinkpad was a 600e I believe had that for a LONG time, then had a T30, then the T42 in my sig and finally my T400.

 

I agree with you. Even if people are actually having different typing experiences, I think too many potential users here are completely disregarding the thinkpad brand over some possible changes that we need more information on. Wait until FRUs and pictures can confirm a bit more. Or you could always get a replacement t61 era keyboard for not that expensive.

I guess it really just depends how much of the thinkpad experience is really based on the EXACT specific keyboard feel. I mean the different brands feel different but all thinkpad keyboards are certainly better than almost every other laptop IMO. Dell or HP's business laptops don't have great keyboards to me from my personal use.

 

I was out of town since my post (just got back at 1:30am). I will post the keyboard FRU of the one in the recent T500 tomorrow. They FRU of the keyboard they sent me is:
FRU: 42T3937
P/NO: 42T3904
ID NO. 8AP4FJ
Model MV89
I asked for the T61 FRU keyboard, but the sales person said that they could not sell me one, but was going to see if they could get me one. Yes this is confusing, as I was a bit confused about what was actually going on. Apparently the FRU was correct, but it was not coming up in available inventory.

Off to dreamland here.

 

I have the new one with the holes, but it has the metal support discussed in the newest T400 review.

The keyboard definitely flexes more on the left and right side, but it's difficult to really make it flex without using more pressure than is used for regular typing.

 

All,

I expect this discussion is going to continue for some time. It seems a difficult thing to absolutely put to bed because once some level of doubt is raised, it may always be a concern for some, and individual perceptions and opinions due vary.

T400/T500/W500 systems built in March '09 onward should have the additional supports in them as Kevin covered in the review. As such, they could have either version of the keyboard and be considered correct from Lenovo's standpoint. At this point, noting the inclusion of the weight reduced keyboard by P/N or visual identification doesn't by itself mean there should be a concern.

The 42T3937 is the FRU for the weight reduced NMB version of the keyboard. FRU 42T3143 is the NMB version of the T61 era keyboard with the backing plate if someone wanted to order one. This is for US layout. Equivalent parts are 42T3209 for the Alps and 42T3273 for the Chicony.

Keyboard feel is a very personal thing, after all, it is the way in which we touch the computer - the tactile feeling from the interaction. As such, there are a lot of opinions about how the keyboard should feel. Even before this concern over flex, I've seen discussions and debate over the feel of keyboards dating back to 2005, forum members have been discussing their opinions on the differing feel of these keyboards (one mfg vs another), and the discussions probably go back further than that. I've just been following along since then.

Best regards,

Mark

 

What are the difference between the three keyboards? Are we given the option to choose the specific type?

 

Mark,
Thanks for the bit of information !
I have a T61 (ordered it in Feb. of 2008) and could not he happier with the keyboard (it's a NMB keyboard). While you are correct there will always be some doubt about "what keyboard will I get" when you order direct, but that's just a chance you have to take IMO. When I'm ready to buy another laptop, it will definitely be another Thinkpad !

 

Thank you, Mark, for the information.

NMB is generally regarded as the "best" Thinkpad keyboard, it is the quietest of the three with good feedback. I think this is the most common keyboard, with distinctive blue pads below the keys (the other two are white).
Chicony is "clickier," with what some users regard as better feel.
Alps seems to be the rarest, and I'm not sure how good/bad it is.

 

Well my T500 with the mushy keyboard had the 42T3937 keyboard (the one with holes). I was able to convince a wonderful Lenovo rep to send me the solid backing one 42T3143 and there is now no mush at all. This is on a new T500 that was delivered on March 23, 2009. My client is quite happy with the new keyboard and the T500 and so am I.

I wish getting a Thinkpad wasn't like getting a lotto ticket. Eg. What keyboard did you get, what screen. However I will say the the IBM support has been excellent. I could not ask for better support.

I assume the new supports are on both the T400 and T500, but in my experience, even now, the solid backing keyboard is my preferred keyboard.

 

I too have the dreaded flex keyboard (and a mediocre Samsung 1680x1050 screen). I hadn't noticed the keyboard flex until I read this thread however as soon as I fired up the machine and started typing I noticed that the keyboard feel is mushy, not crisp and snappy like the keyboard on my X200.

T500 Keyboard -
FRU: 42T3937
P/NO: 42T3904

 

You did not notice until you read this thread...

So it was obviously not much of a problem.

 

Was is the operative word here. If it can lead to problems when the machine is out of warranty it is a big problem for me.

 

I have evaluated the two keyboards, and there is a major difference. I even swapped the two keyboards in our computers (T400 and T500), and we both noticed a difference. Needless to say, she was happy when I swapped them back. My wife's T500 came w/ the T61 keyboard, and the my T400 came w/ the newer keyboard w/ cutouts for miniscule weight savings.

In my opinion, the major difference is in the overall responsiveness of each keystroke that is caused by the backplate flex. It is actually simple physics! The cutout-ridden backplate will slightly deflect with each keystroke. This flex allows the backplate to absorb (and distribute) this energy instead of delivering it back to the key. If the keyboard didn't flex, it would push back on the key with roughly the same force, giving the user reassuring feedback.

 

The point was you did not even notice this complaint until you read about it which means you did not have the complaint yourself at all. It is fine if you feel the keyboard is not up to your standards etc, but it is just a bit laughable that all of a sudden it is an issue to you because you read about it on the internet. If you were/are happy with it great, don't have the internet form the opinion for you.

 

I am not overwhelmened with the keyboard because of the mushiness. The flex is not an issue for me outside of it causing potential problems down the road.

If you buy a new car and are happy with it but 6 months later find out that the tranny has a high failure rate at 42K miles would you be just as happy with the car as before you found this out? (Perhaps until your tranny croaks and you are staring at $3K repair bill)

So the question for me is there any reason to believe that over a five year period the keyboard flex will lead to a problem with machine? If no I have no issue with keyboard flex. If unknown than I will evaluate in 2.5 years as my 3 year warranty nears its end.

 

I think the point being missed here is that Lenovo actually listened to customer feedback and took corrective action.....something like this does not always happen with other brands. Thank you Lenovo.

 

I see no reason why keyboard flex (which is still quite mild on the flexy keyboard compared to many other laptops) would affect the laptop in any other way other than the feel when you type. If you have no problem with it, then it will be fine.

 

Holes don't appear in the keyboard after 42k keystrokes.
They're there or they aren't.

 

is there any picture of a flex type keyboard on the T4xx or T5xx ?

 

True but over time stress fractures may appear as a result of flexing.

 

I would only think this would occur if you type with a hammer...the backing is metal...and according to Lenovo any flex or perceived flex is minimal. I have an Ideapad and could care less if the keyboard backing has holes in it or not. It works as intended. Plus the T500 meets Military Specs for Semi-Rugged Computing I'm sure this would not occur if the keyboard was "weak". Time to move on.

http://laptoplogic.com/news/thinkpad-laptops-meet-semi-rugged-military-specs-59683

 

...really? Come on man it is a keyboard on a laptop. You'd more want to worry about the key action, but the thinkpad keyboards have very good designs with regards to the keys themselves.

Think about it this way. All other notebook keyboards are way more flexy and they don't crack and break from stress even though they are cheaper.

 

The bottom line is that the keyboards are still sub-par. Just becuase someone doesn't notice it until it's pointed out doesn't make it any less real.

That two people could buy the same model and pay the same price but receive concretely different products is outrageous. The fact that the inferior machine is only detected upon comparison with the superior one is irrelevant: the difference is there regardless of when or how or why it is detected.

 

I don't know. When you go to a dentist for a routine check and he finds a bad tooth does it start aching imediately? Or do you realize that it was aching the whole time?

Wasn't that always like that with displays? Either Samsung or LG and one would be superior to other. Anyway the problem isn't exclusive to the keyboard with punctured backplate. Mine is perfectly fine even without newly added keyboard support.

Also you admit it is only detected upon comparison?
Then it's a sin o Envy =) To wish to have a better keyboard upon a comparison even though being completely satisfied before.

 

Your dentist analogy is not appropriate to this situation. Let's stick with consumer technology.

Let's say I buy a $10,000 stereo system. I've never owned an expensive stereo before, and am by no means an audiophile. I think it sounds great! It's jet-black and, hey, it gets really really loud! Time to pick up some chicks and convince of them of my suitability for mating through sonic bombardment! Awesome!!!

However, while visiting a friend who has the exact same stereo, I realize that the sound quality of his stereo is significantly better, particularly at the bass end. My stereo sounds tinny by comparison. Maybe that's why the whole sonic-bombardment-of-chicks thing didn't work. Foiled!

Anyways, I was happy with mine, but only becuase I didn't know what I was missing. I'm not an audiophile, and I've never owned an expensive stereo before. I had no basis for comparison.

By no means should I just decide to be happy with mine, simply becuase I only noticed that it was inferior after comparing it to another of the exact same design.

We ordered the same stereo and paid the same price, but my stereo is concretely inferior to his. That sucks and is clearly not acceptable, especially for a relatively expensive stereo.

The same holds true in this situation. If a person has never owned a Thinkpad before, and is not a keyboard connoisseur, they may not immediately recognize that they have received a concretely inferior product, despite paying full price That is not acceptable, especially for a relatively expensive notebook.

 

i5aac that is perfectly acceptable, but the whole point wasn't whether the problem existed, rather the user felt it was in some way going to degrade faster because it was a different design, a design that the user did not find fault in at all in their use.

 

what exactly is this flex problem? Keyboard flexes during regular key depressions or does the keyboard flex if you push beyond the point when the key is "bottomed out"?

 

WOW...you hit the nail on the head.

 

I see those as two different points.

I would not make or defend the 'degradation' argument, and my comment was not directed towards it.

My comment was in response to people who say things like this:

Again, it is not a matter of letting 'the internet form the opinion for you.' It is a matter of not having noticed the difference between the 'weight-saving' keyboards and the T61-era design.

The 'weight-saving' keyboards are much less comfortable and sturdy to type on than the T61-era keyboards. Just because a person did not notice this initially does not mean that the problem has somehow disappeared.

If the issue exists, it exists. How, or when, a person found out about it is irrelevant.

 

Each key of their keyboards is constructed independently, at least that's what make ThinkPad keyboards great. Pressing a button will not affect its surroundings (by flexing), but apparently these newer keyboards do.

My T61 keyboard does not flex regardless of how hard I press the keys and that goes the same for all the previous ThinkPads. It becomes an issue regardless if you pressed hard or softly.

Im hoping this will be solved and that Lenovo doesn't try to go cheap again on their material costs.

 

Solved...... http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4946&review=lenovo+thinkpad+t400

 

What corrective action did they take? My keyboard still flexes after they supposedly corrected the problem.

 

look here:

http://forum.lenovo.com/lnv/board/message?message.uid=75261#U75261

 

"They either are there or they aren't"


Few things could be further from the truth. Computers may be binary but people aren't which is why we have senses. A Keyboard is there. But they where the difference begins. Do the keys have the right throws? Is the keyboard too soft or hard? Are the keys clickety or not? Do all of the keys do something (mine has a "kew" key which does nothing when depressed)? Are they the right color? Yes,No, maybe so?

Binary thinking is simple. Spectral thinking isn't.