Nvidia 400M series in ThinkPads?

Any rumors on the subject? Ideas?

 

Are any of those down to like 35W yet?

 

No. Given NVIDIA's 'power issues' with the 400 series, I don't expect any mainstream laptops to get any of the new GF chips for a while. Now, at the high end like Alienware and Clevo and the like? I know you can find them pretty easily.

When talking about performance per watt, ATI has this generation (and the last one, too) wrapped up tight.

 

W701 should theoretically take 480M GTX, since it same 100W as Quadro 3800M and same MXM 3.0 B

 

The 445M or 435M should at least be decent on power consumption (probably around 35 watts TDP). But Thinkpads won't get any Geforce GPUs since they use Quadro GPUs most of the time. I'd expect the new Quadros based on the 400s in a couple months time so you'd have to wait until then to see what might be coming.

 

+1

I believe we will see the 400 based cards in the next iteration of Thinkpads. I guess in the middle of next year. There is no rush to change anything so far.

 

new thinkpad series will come soon after Intel release Sandy Bridge. I think it would be the first quarter of 2011, and in last months of 2010 we will know which GPUs will be used in new series

 

One thing is certain, there will always be some level of disappointment in Lenovo's GPU choices. The NVS 3100m is no good this time around, the W510 should offer a FX1800m but mysteriously does not, the T400 and T500 had lousy ATI graphics, my T61p was nothing more than a gussied-up 8600 that runs hot and sucks battery life, also it's disgusting how switchable graphics disappeared this generation. I am really hoping there's better graphics choices next time around. I think the HP Envys are worth checking out just for the GPUs alone.

 

I agree at least for the part about the GPU choices being disappointing. Personally with all the stink about the Nvidia G92 and G94 chips I'm surprised that Lenovo went back to them instead of sticking with ATI, unless there's a driver issue that a significant portion of users had with ATI... something that's a bit strange since the older ThinkPads have traditionally used ATI GPUs.

Admittedly I'm burned with Nvidia and will try to stay away from many of their future offerings, as I had a notebook that was plagued with these issues. I'd prefer Lenovo stick to ATI because of this reason, but if Nvidia can put out a reliable, cool, and relatively powerful mobile series I'd consider switching.

But, I severely seconds the need for a return to switchable graphics. I love the feature on my T400 and am kinda disappointed that it isn't available except for the T410s. I would have chose the T410 over the T400 if they just had a switchable version... heh.

 

To clarify, I love the current ATI GPUs (and I wish AMD stuck with the ATI brand), but the T400, T500, and W500 had lousy GPUs. I wish Lenovo did stick with AMD but it does look like they're sticking with Nvidia. I do have a Dell laptop at home with a G84 GPU that's gotten replaced twice, so I myself am somewhat pissed about that. I am ok with Nvidia though, now that they're actually making new GPUs and not rebranding last years models (at least with the 400 series).

Now I'm wondering why Lenovo switched to Nvidia, briefly with the T61s, then switched back to ATI, then switched again the Nvidia. Makes no sense really. Also no switchable graphics was clearly a cost cutting measure, they're using an inferior chipset from Intel that can't do switchable graphics. And it's a shame too because i don't think I'll ever consider another laptop without switchable graphics, mine can run pretty hot and suck down battery like crazy without even doing anything.

 

Very good points. I really do think the previous generation should have gotten a substantial GPU boost from the T61, but what's done is done, heh.

But, switchable GPUs are pretty much the future, in my opinion. That means you can have your cake and eat it too... a powerful discrete card when you need it and a power-sipping integrated card when you need it. I'm seriously floored that more manufacturers aren't doing it, personally... sometimes the cost-cutting and bean-counting just goes to far.

 

In theory switchable graphics is awesome but there have been a lot of issues with it on the developer side which has led to its slow adoption. For example, it's very difficult to coordinate updates from more than one company, ie. Intel integrated GPU, AMD/nVidia discrete GPU, and the ODM in question, in this case it would be Lenovo.

 

With such end-user disappointment, I'm surprised they haven't considered a successor to the MXM or Axiom form factors.

 

Umm, what is the problem with MXM? It's doing just fine, recently released 3.0 version is the proof which solves a lot of problems with previous ones.

 

Yes, but aside from Acer, MSI or Asus, who's using it?

 

And how you could force manufacturer to use *any* standard it does not want to?
For example, Toshiba uses own internal standard for their modular graphics card - but it hardly benefits end users.

Edit: BTW Lenovo is using MXM in Thinkpads W700 (2.1) and W701 (3.0)

 

Well, that changes things....

 

most of the portable size business laptops don't use MXM as it increases the cost of the laptop, and most people whom uses these type of business laptops probably don't need to change the graphics card (many are happy with the intel integrated GPU).

Obviously there are people whom uses workstation grade business laptops, and hence why they include the MXM solution, as it allows more GPU customization according to the end user needs.

Regarding standards and stuffs, standards usually decrease company profit level, as you could purchase competitor's product that are cheaper. Hence there is no standard in battery connection, size and shape between laptop companies. Even if a standard exist, laptop companies would think of ways to limit usage of parts that is not bought from them, i.e. through bios whitelist, etc.

 

True enough, although I would hazard to guess there is a larger percentage of returning ThinkPad customers with higher standards than most brands.

Of course, the MXM standard is not only for customization, but replacement. Replacing a GPU that may have gone bad is far less costly for a company than taking the loss on a warranty high-end board replacement. Even if not to serve the user, it can make sense for the company to utilize a standard.

I'm glad MXM continues as a standard. I was under the impression it was dead.

Is Axiom still alive as well?

 

The cost of GPU failure is factored into the warranty. Also, it is not everyday that the GPU fails in the way the Nvidia GPU have in the T61/T61p, etc.

It is pretty hard for company to come to a standard unless they greatly benefit them and decreases the cost.

 

From what information I have I am pretty sure its not the cost.
MXM standard places pretty strict restrictions on the video card size, connector and cooling system layout, etc - making it a lot harder to do a compact case design. That's why most MXM-supported laptops are big or at least thick - W70x being the only exception I know up to now (Lenovo did amazing work with designing its chassis layout).
And, true, since most consumers wouldn't bother about interchanging GPU, manufacturers just prefer to use completely custom design.

AXIOM failed to gain adoption AFAIK. AMD/ATI now uses MXM for it's mobile modular lineup.

 

cost includes many things, whether it is the direct component costs, or increased design cost in integrating the MXM solution. Thinkpads are uniquely Lenovo, which shares little underpinning with other laptops, so the cost of integrating and designing an efficient cooling and support systems for it, must be factored in the price of the machine.

Also, unlike Alienware customers, most Thinkpad customers are not gamers, whom needs the absolute latest graphic technology.

A selected range of early ideapads had MXM solution, but these ideapads were ODM which may share the same underpinning as consumer laptops from Lenovo's competitors. This allows the ODM like Compal, Wistron, Foxconn (just examples) to invest more money in designing a more diverse standard platform that can better cater to the needs of brand laptop companies in customising their laptops for their own unique target market. This is one of the benefit of increasing the use of ODM laptop products.

 

Yep, and that's too bad. It is possible to preserve a small form factor and make thin notebooks with MXM 3.0b (at least in the 15" sector) as it is done by HP (8540w). Not only it provides for upgradeablility of the system but also simplifies the maintenance and troubleshooting costs. It's easy to replace the card alone instead of replacing the entire mobo in a case of GPU failure.
In addition, such practice would give Lenovo another advantage - more GPU options (no need to make different mobo versions for every card) and eventually, customers (like me ) wouldn't leave the camp because of the lack of ATI GPU options for W TP series. All Lenovo would need to do (following HP and Dell) is make new heat sinks for the cards (those are very cheap) and edit the system BIOS.
Back to the topic, I think the main issue with the 400M series is their power hunger and heat. They require extra copper/aluminum on HS's and need more fan power to push the heat out of the system. Plus the price...it's ridiculous. FX5000M (based on 480M) is 2k+ per card, ~6x more than a M7820 (based on MR5870)
Not to mention, that the performance gain is very minimal if at all...

 

i guess Lenovo could offer a similar slot solution for their W5xx series down the line. But i don't think it will be available in the bread and butter T series anytime soon.

 

If Intel really releases the Sandy Bridge mobile platform in January, and Lenovo wants to present new (DX11-capable) systems at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if they go ATI/AMD.

Like some Lenovo guy posted somewhere some time ago: it's mostly a matter of price and availability, and with AMD being one generation ahead, they clearly have the edge.

 

All Lenovo needs to do is a) follow MXM 3.0 specs for heatsink shape/dimensions (MXM 3.0 uses standardized heatsink shape) and b) do not place blacklisting in the system BIOS (MXM 3.0 uses standardized video BIOS)
BTW I am not aware of either of above deviations. Are you saying that ATI cards won't work in MXM 3.0 Thinkpad?

They don't need to go ATI/AMD. Quadro 5000 is DX11-capable being the based on GF 480M