Nvidia Defective Products

http://www.semiconductor.net/article/438968-Nvidia_s_Chen_Calls_for_Zero_Via_Defects.php

Interesting how Nvidia blames other companies for their own incompetence.

 

When Dell, HP and others announce a BIOS 'fix', the reason it is so humorous is that all they are doing is lowering the amount of thermal stress on the chips when the fan would not normally be on. When the fan is going full tilt without the 'fix', the new 'updated thermal profiles' won't make a difference. When the fans are normally off or on low, the profiles will essentially lessen the stress from a three to a four. It is just there to allow the laptop to live through the warranty period so the companies don't have to pay for the fix. After that, if the defective chips burn out, it isn't their problem. The 'fix' doesn't fix anything at all.

In the end, it comes down to Nvidia screwing up badly on package engineering and testing, then trying as best they can to bury the problem while passing the buck. It appears that every Nvidia 65nm and 55nm part with high lead bumps and/or low Tg underfill are defective, it is just a question of how defective they are, and when they will die.

As far as we are able to tell, contrary to Nvidia's vague statements blaming suppliers, there are no materials defects at work here. Every material they used lived up to the claimed specs, and every material they used would have done the job while kept within the advertised parameters. Nvidia's engineering failures put overdue stress on the parts, and several failures compounded to make two generations of defective parts. The suppliers and subcontractors did exactly what they were told, Nvidia just told them to do the wrong thing.

When it started talking about this, Nvidia failed crisis management 101, and the coverup shows it doesn't care about consumers, just its bottom line. NV is doing exactly the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, and the lawyers circling with class action paperwork in hand are going to eat them alive.

http://www.overclock.net/hardware-news/380074-inq-nvidia-gpu-defects-explained.html

Lenovo wins the shame award for denial. Where's the "Mark" guy who appeared on this board to spin doctor the whole situation. It's an absolute insult to the consumer's intelligence. May your own TP melt when you need it the most.

 

Here's to hoping the newer 40nm products don't crap out after a couple years like my old 8600M GT.

 

Glad my T400 has ATi

 

Lenovo didn't deny anything, they just didn't say anything on this matter either. Mark is just an employee of Lenovo (middle management), he could only say things that is allowed by people higher up in the leadership ladder.

I don't think Lenovo workers would be using the T61.... it will be bad for the company image to show their own workers can't keep up with their own company product releases...

 

Older ATI cards become defective so much that there is a market for reflow and GPU repairs... although, only a small number of people are doing the repairs (special job of resoldering and heating certain components).

But, any display problems are usually with Thinkpads with ATI cards.

A lot of the Nvidia card owners are overclocking their cards - in a laptop! Um, duh... there is already minimal cooling in laptops and you're overclocking a video card?!?

But, you know, spread fear... FUD or whatever you call it. Even if Nvidia has some defective cards, it could be at a certain time and way they were producing them.... but, how is ATI any better?

 

Are you dumb? ALL CARDS USING THE CERTAIN MATERIALS were deffective, ok? You are now denying they are failing under circumstances not caused by the consumer. By "older ATI cards" are you referring to the T40/p to T42/p's that had the motherboard flex problem, resulting in cracked solder joints, this was not related at all to the GPU chip, it was related to the flexing of the mobo, which was then fixed with the T43/p, as i have a T43 with an ATI X300 that hasn't failed yet despite being previously used and abused by me, i've overclocked it to 425/390 from stock clocks of 230/230! It's also been heated up to high 80's numerous times and has never shown any symptoms of GPU failure, not one! No BSOD, no corruption, and i've played hours of CoD 2 on it. You ought to be the next nVidia CEO, any display problems are with ThinkPads with ATI cards usually eh? I beg to differ. If you get actual factual statistics about the defective nVidia GPU failure rates, directly from nVidia, and they state that failures were only slightly above normal, then fine, i suppose it was the consumers, but i know it clearly isn't. Some guy with a T61 in here was posting on his higher than normal NVS 140M which is based off of the 8400M GS, he was getting 60's temps when he was web browsing, and to my knowledge, never overclocked it or attempted to increase bandwidth, now come on. You also say "even if nVidia has some defective cards...", so you are also denying the fact that there are defective cards, who can trust you when you have no logical understanding of the nVidia defects situation at hand? ATI is only "better" in a relative sense, they just don't have any GPU defective batches that were as widely used as the G84/G86/G92/G94 (unconfirmed), which in relation is a pretty big advantage.

 

I read about the Nvidia 'bump' situation, but thanks for all those compliments!

You didn't answer the main question, though. I'll ask again: if ALL Nvidia hardware was defective, why are laptop manufacturers still using Nvidia hardware? Why don't they all just switch to ATI?

Why even take a chance?

I was only speculating. I'm not a 'fan' of Nvidia or denying anything, btw.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is that problem. Companies try to cut corners all the time.

 

no one is spreading fear. nor is there any endoresement of ati over nvidia. that is your thought process. facts were stated and an article posted to educate the general consumer. you can debate all you want among nerds but the average user is no even aware of this issue. you answer your own question because it has nothing to do with the post.

 

You refer to the Inquirer website?

I am not disputing anything. I *WAS* speculating. Some people do dispute the allegations and I am saying I am not denying or arguing the alleged facts. I even said it does sound convincing and I would not be surprised. That's all.

I just think it's intriguing that with the idea of so many lines of defective hardware that there hasn't been an even wider switch to a different video company or even universal switch. Is Nvidia paying people off or giving them a sweet deal that they're willing to risk or did Nvidia convince people that they have solved the problem?

 

They're not defective per say, but the cards in the affected machines - mainly the T61 and R61, have higher than normal failure rates. Some people will use those machine for years and never have a problem. It would have been I think a good thing had Lenovo stepped up and covered those machine affected by the issue like their main competitors like Dell, HP and Apple have done. If the card fails you're looking at a new board, which is a very expensive proposition, even a refurbed board is probably at least a couple hundred. I see this as mainly a nVidia issue, but when I am in the market for a notebook in the future I would take into account what Lenovo has done with this issue.

 

ATI graphics card on the T4x are not defective.... there is nothing wrong with the GPU itself... the failure occurs when people hold the T4x laptop with the screen open at its edge, which due to the lack of internal rollcage, would create bending stress on the GPU solder joints..... repetitive cycle of this bending would cause crack on the GPU solder joints to the motherboard, which leads to stress cracking.

This is why Lenovo Thinkpad from T60, Z60, R60 had an internal magnesium rollcage to prevent such failures occurring in the motherboard.

ATI cards in the T60, R60, Z60, Z61 never had such problems due to the magnesium rollcage modification.

 

Well Laptop companies like Lenovo are not as vertically integrated as Apple is, so in which cases i imagine some parts price are negotiated by the contract manufacturer on their behalf. Since the contract manufacturer also manufacture laptops on behalf of other companies, i imagine the volume of order would be quite large and therefore price per unit chip is quite competitive. If you buy one LCD from Samsung for say 100 dollars, when you buy say 100,000 units, it would be only around 30 dollars. So imagine all the saving you could make.

From all these investigation and research into Nvidia GPU failure, it could be seen that the GPU silicon itself is okay, but it is the bump material that is failing, so if Nvidia rectify this problem and in turn offer Lenovo and other laptop companies a large discount as a goodwill gesture.... well i guess problem solved.

In addition, most of the contract manufacturers for laptops, i.e. Compal, Foxconn are all Taiwanese company and Nvidia is taiwanese company too.... so in many way it is a case of, you scratch my back and i scratch yours.....

 

Very interesting and informative posts, guys!

That lack of internal roll cage is key so thanks for expanding on that topic. I apologize for my implication that the ATI card was faulty. I just know the old ones aren't very well supported in Linux. ;-)

I have a T41 and although it's an okay machine, I think I would like to step up if buying a new machine. I am not a fan of Lenovo so that is an interesting statement, Zaz! But, I still think that the 'IBM' influence might maintain some quality but it's hard for me to consider new(er) Lenovo models.

I was shopping for a T60p or T61p originally but I would like an even newer model now although there's a lot of choices and it's hard to decide.

I was also interested in a dedicated graphics card so this topic interested me in particular.

Sounds like a very reasonable answer to my question, lead org.

In fact, I believe that to be the case. 'Makes sense.

Which laptops would you recommend to me then? ;-)

I'm flexible with regards to either Nvidia or ATI now (although, it has to be one or the other).

 

Just buy the one that meets your need.... it could be HP, Dell or Lenovo Business laptop.... look at the spec and the price.... HP and Dell business laptop all use external magnesium case on their business laptop, while the Thinkpad T400 and T500 use internal magnesium rollcage, with the top exterior case made of super elastic Polycarbonate (i.e. bullet proof glass) and bottom exterior case of Carbon Fiber Reinforced Polymer/CFRP (i.e. used on Airbus A380 and the propeller of the Super Hercule C-130J)....

While, the magnesium case are light and strong, but they crack easily if you drop them.... in addition a small crack would quickly propagate when a cyclic stress is applied to it.... and usually that would end up as going through the entire length of the case. While, Polycarbonate and CFRP can usually resist crack propagation much better than magnesium, while retaining superior scuff resistance........

 

So, you only recommend business line notebooks? I'm not sure my budget would be able to apply to any.

Also, I don't like the current Lenovo business line. No eSATA. No HDMI although some have DisplayPort? I'd have to go as high as the T400s which is up to $2K when all is said and done. And with that model, I just read many owners are totally dissatisfied with the screen.

I'd go with the Dell Latitude but it's probably too expensive as well.

 

Wait for sales.... and coupons, there are some T400s been sold for little more than 1000 dollars in USA (assuming that is where you are from)... i could buy a T400s for 1500 AUD in Australia..... all the business line laptop are expensive for good reason, excellent warranty and laptop quality.... consumer laptops are mediocre at best........

Shop around.... or Latitude whatever takes your fancy.... only the Z series of the Latitude have both the eSATA and Displayport....

 

I'm in Canada. Prices are higher for the same product (laptops, here) than in the U.S. and maybe Australia, too.

The 400s looks good, I admit, but over my budget, unfortunately. I would choose it if I was considering a Thinkpad. Some of the newer models finally have the specs I want, too, but I suspect they'll be way over my budget as well.

I would like eSATA since it would be more convenient and probably faster than using an ExpressCard or hardware that has eSATA workaround.

The Latitude is probably too much, too, but I thought it had eSATA and Displayport. You sure there's only one model that has it???

I would consider Thinkpads but it bothers me that 1) no eSATA 2) very difficult to configure high res AND still get a LED display

I like T6x series but I want a newer version that gives me an option to upgrade to P8xxx series of CPU.

 

I just bought a T400 with a Core 2 Duo 2.53GHz, Switchable ATI/Intel GPU, 4GB DDR3, Intel WiFi, and the 4-cell battery for a bit over $750.

I have family who work for HP, but even they can't get me an EliteBook for $750.

HP (and all other) consumer notebooks are vastly different from the ThinkPad/EliteBook/Latitude/other business lines. Yet you can get a Thinkpad T400 for around the same price as a consumer-level notebook. That's an amazing deal.

 

Be sure to look around for coupon codes and other discounts that you might qualify for. I got another 10% or so off through an academic discount that applies to both students and alumni of my university.

 

In my opinion the G8x generation NVIDIA cards are defective, in the same way that the XBOX 360 is defective. 2 out of the 3 G8x parts that I ever owned (ThinkPad T61 / NVS 140m and a Compal generic notebook) died. I also had a friend who has had two NVIDIA chipset (GeForce 6150) failures on his HP laptop, although that's not G8x generation.

We don't really know what the failure rate is, but it's high. NVIDIA certainly specified MTBF and other failure rate statistics to the manufacturers, and since they almost certainly have not met those rates it's likely that the parts are at least 'defective' in the sense that they don't meet their reliability spec.

Additionally, the BIOS changes to reduce the failure rate mean that the thermal specifications were effectively revised, which is another area in which the G8x NVIDIA parts could be considered defective.

 

Are you Canadian or in Canada? Is this applying to Canadians?

The $750 you spent, is that Cdn funds? I'm just asking because it's almost like it's easily calculated to be about $100+ extra for Canadians for every dollar an American spends on a laptop.