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    Picture of W500 GPU die! Not V5700?

    Discussion in 'Lenovo' started by veemexx, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. veemexx

    veemexx Notebook Geek

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    Update: 11/25/08

    Lenovo finally released the non-certified ISV drivers today after several weeks of waiting: http://forums.lenovo.com/lnv/board/...&thread.id=144&view=by_date_ascending&page=23

    If you have updated your W500 BIOS to 1.19, you can use these non-certified ISV drivers to support your 3D CAD applications.

    If you haven't updated your W500 BIOS, you should use the certified ISV drivers for the V5700 if they support your 3D CAD applications.

    Picture of the ATI 'FireGL V5700' die in my W500...

    [​IMG]

    Although it doesn't say FireGL, Lenovo claims that the GPU has the OpenGL capabilities unlocked. The Device ID is 9591 (Device ID for the Mobility Radeon HD3650) and not 9595 (Device ID for the V5700 at ATI's vendor ID website).

    Lenovo's official and detailed explanation is found here - http://forum.lenovo.com/lnv/board/m...&view=by_date_ascending&message.id=1356#M1356

    So in conclusion, we all have FireGL V5700s and hopefully the ISV drivers get supported quarterly and certified soon.

    I also checked the video drivers for the HP workstations that have FireGL V5700s and they will have Device IDs of 9591 too.

    Thanks and God Bless!
     
    veemexx, Nov 9, 2008
    #1
  2. zerosource

    zerosource Notebook Deity

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    oh! that's hmmm.
     
    zerosource, Nov 9, 2008
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  3. f20c1

    f20c1 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Hey veemexx,

    Thanks for being the one to acutally open up their W500. My device id is 9591 so I guess I didn't get a real V5700 either. I wonder how they're gonna fix this. Maybe they'll let us return our laptops? :confused: I guess we'll see how it plays out.
     
    f20c1, Nov 9, 2008
    #3
  4. sgogeta4

    sgogeta4 Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Seeing as it has virtually no difference (except if you're using certain programs - which is still debatable since ATI has some issues with that), call and demand some sort of partial refund at the very least.
     
    sgogeta4, Nov 9, 2008
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  5. veemexx

    veemexx Notebook Geek

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    This probably explains why I wasn't able to install the ISV video driver from Solidworks.

    The GPU just isn't the FireGL V5700!!!!!
     
    veemexx, Nov 9, 2008
    #5
  6. veemexx

    veemexx Notebook Geek

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    I do hope that they will refund or replace with a real V5700.
     
    veemexx, Nov 10, 2008
    #6
  7. kevin071586

    kevin071586 Notebook Consultant

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    I am also concerned about this... but since I don't have mine yet, I guess I just have to wait and see.
     
    kevin071586, Nov 10, 2008
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  8. louisssss

    louisssss Notebook Consultant

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    LENOVO needs to explain this.. i'd be pretty **** pissed if they did this to me.
     
    louisssss, Nov 10, 2008
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  9. Injek

    Injek Notebook Consultant

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    Lenovo is really doing some weird stuff at the moment...

    I advise you guys to post a new thread about the problem on the official forum.
    I think that it will be of greater help.
     
    Injek, Nov 10, 2008
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  10. knarfgnourt

    knarfgnourt Newbie

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    I can also confirm that my Device ID is 9591 on my Lenovo w500.
     
    knarfgnourt, Nov 10, 2008
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  11. veemexx

    veemexx Notebook Geek

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    Thanks Knarkgnourt!

    Also to everyone reading this thread - if your W500 has a 9591 Device ID (found in Catalyst Control Center). Let me know in this Thread. We need more support to let Lenovo know that they have to explain to us what is happening.
     
    veemexx, Nov 10, 2008
    #11
  12. knarfgnourt

    knarfgnourt Newbie

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    no problem veemexx. I also found this out when I tried to install the ISV drivers.

    Please keep us w500 owners updated as to Lenovo's response. I would be very disappointed with them if they bait and switched the GPU on the w500.
     
    knarfgnourt, Nov 10, 2008
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  13. northwood

    northwood Notebook Guru

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    northwood, Nov 10, 2008
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  14. Bashar

    Bashar Notebook Evangelist

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    what is "Catalyst Control Center" ? is it a windows thing ? or i need to open the laptop to check the internal hardware ?
     
    Bashar, Nov 10, 2008
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  15. northwood

    northwood Notebook Guru

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    start -> programs -> Catalyst Control Center -> CCC -> Information Center -> Graphics Hardware -> Device ID...
     
    northwood, Nov 10, 2008
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  16. zerosource

    zerosource Notebook Deity

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    So this is what lenovo do for business...
     
    zerosource, Nov 10, 2008
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  17. veemexx

    veemexx Notebook Geek

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    veemexx, Nov 10, 2008
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  18. veemexx

    veemexx Notebook Geek

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    veemexx, Nov 10, 2008
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  19. THAANSA3

    THAANSA3 Exit Stage Left

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    Good investigative work, Veemexx. This is really fishy. I'm sure you'll keep us posted on Lenovo's response.
     
    THAANSA3, Nov 10, 2008
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  20. knarfgnourt

    knarfgnourt Newbie

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    Thanks for the update veemexx. I had already updated both my bios (v1.18) and the graphics card drivers (7vd535ww) prior to checking the device ID of 9591.
     
    knarfgnourt, Nov 10, 2008
    #20
  21. TheGreatGrapeApe

    TheGreatGrapeApe Notebook Evangelist

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    Says who?

    Laser etching on the surface of the die doesn't do much of anything other than identify the batch that comes out of TSMC. They are both the same GPU so whether it gets a label or not doesn't change it's features they're both still M86s. It's not like they laser cut them to cripple them or something and then sold you half the GPU (which has happened before from some OEMs) and it's not like is a lesser featured card like an HD4830 or GTX260 which has less than the full potential of the RV770 or G200 chip.

    Looks like they simply forgot to flash the correct BIOS on the MXM daughter card before sending the batch off to Lenovo or from Lenovo. They are both M86 parts, so I don't know what the issue is other than there being a device ID problem which probably causes problems for apps which required certified solutions. However, there's a BIOS update solution at Lenovo to fix the problem. Did you try it? Does it correct the Device ID? What is it you are trying to accomplish other than fixing that? If it still doesn't show the proper device ID, then yeah they should fix that, but if it does now, then what?

    You have the memory size that it's supposed to have, you have the SPU, ROPs and other components it's supposed to have.

    So exactly what are you asking for other than the BIOS fix they are offering that identifies the chip correctly for drivers and apps?

    And the two pictures you sent are from 2 generations ago, which doesn't mean that they are still running separate spins just for Mobile or Desktop FireGLs/FirePros. Would you be equally miffed if it said FireGL instead of the new name FirePro?

    I went there looking for info on the W700 which I want to get, I stumbled onto that mother of an ignorant thread (where people don't know their Quadro from their Qattro or that FireGL became FirePro or basic chip design and what the difference are [as if having Quadro or FireXX adds SPU and other features other than enabling them through drivers) and it lead me back home here to this thread.
     
    TheGreatGrapeApe, Nov 10, 2008
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  22. headsup

    headsup Newbie

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    Veemexx,

    Thx for taking your machine apart to get at the root cause!

    My device ID shows 9591 after the bios upgrade, and regardless of what driver I use: Lenovo, Autodesk or Solidworks.

    Ape,

    The point of the thread is that the W500 has a GPU with a device ID of 9591; and nobody cares how they mark the chip, but that it identifies itself as a 9591 (Radeon) which does not work with many of the features of CAD programs.
    If the fix had changed the device ID; the problem should be solved; but that is not the situation!
     
    headsup, Nov 10, 2008
    #22
  23. veemexx

    veemexx Notebook Geek

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    Ape, just as Headsup has said, the BIOS update and whatever updates that Lenovo throw at us doesn't change the Device ID of the GPU.

    I have the newest BIOS and video driver running and I'm still having a Device ID of 9591. I know the FireGL is based on the M86 which is in HD3650, but you can't throw in a HD3650 and call it a FireGL V5700.

    If I had a computer company that rolled out laptops, i wouldn't make this mistake, no matter what the excuse/reason is. It is just bad press when this problem is discovered and brought out into the open.

    And of course, I want my CAD software to work on my W500 which is the point of all this.
     
    veemexx, Nov 10, 2008
    #23
  24. Adroitness

    Adroitness Notebook Enthusiast

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    Wow this is clearly a breach of contract. How can they advertise something, when your not getting the same object you've paid for. I hope there is a truthful explanation for this.
     
    Adroitness, Nov 11, 2008
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  25. Bashar

    Bashar Notebook Evangelist

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    i just checked mine and its
    ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3650
    Device ID 9591
    Vendor 1002

    do we need to update the bios and driver to show properly ?
     
    Bashar, Nov 11, 2008
    #25
  26. tdesaix

    tdesaix Newbie

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    A workstation GPU is the same chip as a non workstation GPU. The video firmware and driver enable workstation features that are on the asic and then you also get a speed boost from the workstation code path the driver follows. All Nvidia and ATI products are done in this manner, the silk screen on the ASIC is just wording and it has been that way for a long time. It is very similar to how a Intel Xeon is the same architecture as a desktop CPU. That said, nvidia and ati do some fancy security stuff to make sure non-workstation products can't be hacked into workstation cards.

    Back to our issue...
    The BIOS update fixes the sub system ID part of the hardware ID not the device ID- look at the whole hardware ID. The reason the ISV driver won't install is because they have not posted the new driver that contains the new SSID. Look at the INF file and you will see what I am saying is true.

    The old driver says: "ATI Mobility FireGL V5700" = ati2mtag_M76, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9591&SUBSYS_211717AA
    to install with the new subsys id it needs to say :
    "ATI Mobility FireGL V5700" = ati2mtag_M76, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9591&SUBSYS_212717AA
    or
    "ATI Mobility FireGL V5700" = ati2mtag_M76, PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_9591&SUBSYS_212617AA
     
    tdesaix, Nov 11, 2008
    #26
  27. sgogeta4

    sgogeta4 Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    so... ATI drivers2lose? :(
     
    sgogeta4, Nov 11, 2008
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  28. Jim_Yohe

    Jim_Yohe Newbie

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    That would be my hope too.
     
    Jim_Yohe, Nov 11, 2008
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  29. Chk

    Chk Notebook Consultant

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    Lets ask ourselves something, how is the W500 cheaper than the T500? Now re-read the thread. There is your answer.
     
    Chk, Nov 11, 2008
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  30. Adroitness

    Adroitness Notebook Enthusiast

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    But Chk, the T500 is a few hundreds less :O
     
    Adroitness, Nov 11, 2008
    #30
  31. sgogeta4

    sgogeta4 Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Doesn't matter the price, if they advertise it having a certain feature, and they give you something else, you can sue for false advertisement.
     
    sgogeta4, Nov 11, 2008
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  32. northwood

    northwood Notebook Guru

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    but does 9595 exist afterall!???? Does anyone have W500 with 9595 ID???
     
    northwood, Nov 11, 2008
    #32
  33. sgogeta4

    sgogeta4 Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    Its more a matter of if other computers in w/ the V5700 (not just W500) having a 9595 ID or are others the same ID.
     
    sgogeta4, Nov 11, 2008
    #33
  34. jarod123

    jarod123 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Does this explain also why I keep getting display driver errors when I run dual display for extended periods of time (2 days or more)
     
    jarod123, Nov 11, 2008
    #34
  35. sisqo_uk

    sisqo_uk Notebook Deity

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    ok i think that there might be more than just a driver thing. im no expert in this field but from what i do no is that going through forums of the gpu on the w500. its supposed to be V5700 right. has any body found out specs about it?
    People check GPUz and it says radeon 3650. it just might be..im unusre cos what im unsure is can GPUz correctly give u the correct data. obviously with drivers it still may say its a 3650 but if u look at the shadrs. from what i no. the V5700 is supposed to have 320 unified shaders not 120(thats y i unsure if the bios update could change that) that information IS on the ATI website but u gotta look hard.
    Also who remembers when the w500 was leaked. we got info on it including the T500. the T500 was to have switchable graphics and the W500 didnt get a mention on this and rightly so. which Workstation NEEDS switchable graphics, afterall your supposed to be buying it for CAD use right which saying this makes me think now why HP 8530w didnt go with switchable graphics cos it wasnt meant to cos its workstation.

    Here is a link also about W500 and no mention of switchable graphics so i dont no what lenovo has given you and i really wanted these. i Hope im wrong and can be fixed cos id prefer this than than the HP cos they too noisey and heat up.

    http://shop.lenovo.com/ISS_Static/merchandising/US/PDFs/w500_datasheet.pdf

    (p.s in case you dont no, you need adobe reader to view this)
     
    sisqo_uk, Nov 12, 2008
    #35
  36. Adroitness

    Adroitness Notebook Enthusiast

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    I'm guessing your not American because i barely got half of what you said
     
    Adroitness, Nov 12, 2008
    #36
  37. Longwalker

    Longwalker Notebook Guru

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    Got a link?

    I think you're looking at the specs for the desktop version of the Firepro v5700.

    There is precious little information available anywhere on the Mobility V5700, least of all from AMD/ATI themselves.
     
    Longwalker, Nov 12, 2008
    #37
  38. Animaitor

    Animaitor Notebook Enthusiast

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    All the Mobility Radeons can be softmoded to add FireGL capabilities (just check Guru3D's forums) since the only difference is just a couple of resistors that let you install the specific drivers. Maybe Lenovo will try to use hacked drivers to make the cards look like FireGLs. But this is not a way to treat costumers!
     
    Animaitor, Nov 14, 2008
    #38
  39. JaneL

    JaneL Super Moderator

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    JaneL, Nov 14, 2008
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  40. Mike7300

    Mike7300 Notebook Enthusiast

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    So to get this driver and bios to work, i need to uninstall my current driver first?
     
    Mike7300, Nov 18, 2008
    #40
  41. veemexx

    veemexx Notebook Geek

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    Bump for updates
     
    veemexx, Nov 25, 2008
    #41
  42. veemexx

    veemexx Notebook Geek

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    Yup, uninstall your current driver if it is not the latest driver from Lenovo. Install the latest video driver from Lenovo. Then update your BIOS to solve the misindentification problem.
     
    veemexx, Nov 25, 2008
    #42
  43. samov

    samov Notebook Consultant

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    ok...

    The firegl mobilty status is NO LONGER determined by the device id but by the system id...

    THE SAME card in a certain laptop is firegl ... while the same implementation on another is a normal radeon.

    WHY... well... is it easier to manufacture and sell.

    Same thing happens on hp business line... 8510p and 8510w ARE THE EXACT same systems with the EXACT SAME BIOS except for the firmware in the keyboard controller(holds a very small amout of information... mainly "switches" that identify if the system is either this or that)... which is flashed on production and after that only updated following the same line.

    more on this

    http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=175435

    there are some side effects...

    mainly... installing a firegl mobility modded driver from ATI results in the card being detected as firegl BUT working as a radeon... since this driver has BOTH the device level id check AND the system level id check...

    installing a driver from your manufacturer actually has this first device id check disabled.
     
    samov, Nov 29, 2008
    #43