So is this why there is no Switchable Graphics yet?

Just found this article,
and from my PoV this makes kind of sense why there is no Switchable Graphics in the T410 yet, and/ or why the T410s is delayed.

We shall see on Tuesday...

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mobile...duce_Hybrid_SLI_Under_Optimus_Brand_Name.html

 

Very interesting. I'm curious if the system will be able to switch based on demand, or whether its only under certain predetermined conditions.

 

Some users in this Forum say that there will be some Bios Update for the T410 which will enable switchable graphics! That would be so cool...

 

Hybrid graphics capabilities are nothing new and I'd hate to know that functionality was held back due to a lackluster press release. I mean, it's basically meaningless from a new technology standpoint.

With this in mind, the W510's shipped *just* after Nvidia announced the "new" Quadro video cards. These are rehashed cards, not much new about them at all.

All that can be said is that T410's and T510's with discrete graphics and i5 procs have all the hardware to make SG work. The QS/QM57 chipsets support the functionality as a default.

 

What about the i7 Processors?

 

The low-end ones do.

The Intel i7-600 series have integrated graphics while the i7-700, i7-800 series do not. The 920XM also lacks integrated graphics.

 

Thanks!

Do you think the SG Option on the T410 will come via Bios Update during the next weeks or so? If so, that would be really really great!

 

Nobody knows.

Keep in mind that eventhough the hardware supports it, Lenovo may never release an update to enable it.

 

How would you know? The motherboard simply could lack the link necessary for communication (AFAIK it's called FDI - flexible display interface).

 

Yes, but it would be kinda stupid to advertise it in the 1st place...
Oh well, we are talking Lenovo here

 

All the hardware is there in the chipset (Q series) and the CPU/GPU. It's just not enabled.

 

Yea, TLA talk time (three letter acronym).

Dual display stream, aka FDI, functionality is integrated on the PCH.

 

That has nothing to do with what you've quoted.

Sharing a common interface doesn't automatically enable communication. You need to link the components - we don't know if they are. Looking at the chipset's ballout there are a lot of balls connected to the FDI. Maybe implementing the link would have made the PCB too expensive (no problem for the top-notch T410s). T510 and W510 on the other hand share the same PCB (according to Matt Kohut), which could be the reason why we won't see switchable graphics there.

Not that I wouldn't be happy if I'm totally wrong.

 

I wonder if the upcoming Y460 and the Y560 will have a switchable option.

 

It's not just that the two cards have to link, they both need to be connected to the laptop display. If the the Intel one isn't wired to the display, switchable graphics just isn't possible, bios update or not.

And SSJ, if you read through the Y460/560 properly, you'd know that it's been announced that they do.

 

I read that nVidia has not yer released support for their latest graphics switching technology (the name escapes me). The post seemed to suggest that support would be rolled out when nVidia officially releces their new GPU's. I think it was on the Lenovo forums, if I find the page again I'll post the link!

 

I never mentioned the pinout. What I've said, repeatedly, is that the hardware required support SG is in the machines. When I say hardware, I mean components. If we are going to talk about how it is assembled and wired, I’m a bit confused.

GPU’s aren’t the only requirement to make displays work. You also need analog and digital display interfaces. The QM57 has 4.

In the Westmere solution, and as I understand it, the processor has two options for video. Firstly, it can directly access a discrete video system via PCIe, bypassing the Southbridge entirely. Memory is handled this way as well in the Northbridge-less chipsets. Alternatively, the GPU embedded in Arrandale CPU’s communicate to the Southbridge via FDI and use the integrated RAMDAC and output options contained there (HDMI, Displayport, etc).

The T510 has integrated graphics-only options. Based on the Southbridge design, the FDI would be required to carry the GPU instructions to the Southbridge to take advantage of the display interfaces embedded in the Southbridge. Assuming the T510 and W510 share the same mainboard and the main, it would make sense they have this functionality.

Are you and Borkey saying that Lenovo connects the LCD/VGA/Displayport/Dock ports to the discrete graphics card’s display ports in some models and to the Southbridge in others?

Not sure if this is indicative of anything, but the “Switchable Graphics” and “Workstation” models look the same in the maintenance manual. The fact that it mentions a switchable option may be telling in itself.



Legend:
A: MCP (Multi Chip Package) processor
B: PCH (Platform Controller Hub)
C: Accelerometer chip for the HDD Active Protection System™
D: Graphics
Note: D (Graphics) is only for the Switchable Graphics models and Workstation models. The system board in Integrated Graphics models does not have this chip.

What may be lacking here is some other, tertiary component required to make SG work. Apparently HP Elitebooks are in the same boat here. Like I said earlier, I’d be disappointed if a meaningless press release was the real cause.

 

That's basically it, in more technical terms. My only experience with switchable graphics has been with desktops, and my technical knowledge sucks.

With desktops, the monitor must be connected to the ports of the integrated graphics card, not the ones on the discrete, for it to be able to switch. I assumed laptops were the same in that, if the monitor was connected to the discrete, then switchable graphics wouldn't work.

I'm not saying that this is the reason why some Lenovo's can't go switchable, but I am saying that just because all the parts are present (Discrete, Arrandale and chipset), it doesn't mean that switchable graphics automatically works. The manufacturer needs to do something.

That said, the original Lenovo switchables had a problem where you couldn't use external displays while using the discrete graphics card. Not sure if they've fixed it yet, but it could be a clue into how the system works.

 

And that's where I had this quote in mind:

Sure, as "Worldwide Competitive Analyst" those technical details might not be his field of expertise, but I'm sure he didn't pull the underlined part out of his a.

 

Perhaps I should retract my previous statement after seeing these posts:

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T5...410-Switch-between-graphics-cards/td-p/197299

 

This is a high probability of being true. Look at the Tx00 series with SG, how many threads were there that it wasn't working (due to user error in the install process), how many people didn't even know it was a feature? How many did a clean install without knowing how to install SG, suffered massive battery drainage issues and blamed Lenovo or Windows? There were many, MANY user related issues with SG and I can only imagine how many support calls there were. Lenovo may have simplified the process for themselves and locked SG out at the Bios level.

 

A bit harsh on users I think. These products are sold to anyone who can afford it. Buyers are also expected to update drvers using either Lenovo system update or following Lenovo written instructions. The drivers(s) developers can just make the whole "enabling advertised features" process a lot easier by taking better control of the update process, or am I ranting?

 

I know what you are saying and I completely agree. I guess I should have stated better that this is probably the reason Lenovo took out switchable.

 

On the contrary, I find it difficult to understand why SG, which is more difficult to achieve with the 500 series, is removed in the "new generation" 501 series, where it is already "built-in". It was IMHO a defining feature of the Thinkpad compared to most of the competition, and worked well (though the vista drive was better than the win7 one). Maybe it is rather a cost-cutting call - with the expectation that the new integrated gpu is so much better than the old, most buyers will opt for the integrated gpu? However, that leaves "power users" stuck with the dedicated gpu when they sometimes need minimum power - like on the road.

I am one of those who would be very happy to have the new integrated gpu only, but due to Lenovo only offering the "Full HD" screen with dedicated gpu, will be forced to do choose dedicated. This is similar to the 500 generation where the WUXGA screen came only with the W-series and a dedicated gpu, so that is where I went - but being able to switch down to an integrated gpu was a great feature. At least with the 510 generation the "Full HD" screen is available with the T-series also.


If instead it is a development rather than a cost issue, then expect SG to be re-introduced down the track...after all, SG will become much more common in Thinkpad competitors now...Would be strange for a feature that lenovo has championed to be given up to the opposition.

 

Good points, antskip.

However, I believe Sony was first to market with SG in their SZ line. It has been a part of the Z series ever sense. The mode selector switch on the newest Z's has three positions; Discrete, integrated and auto

Implementing SG should be much easier now, if not cheaper, due to Westmere and Arrandle's reduced chip count. It'll likely become more pervasive as time goes by.