Soooo did you guys hear ? Dells are now better built than thinkpads !

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=46890

 

I'm not sure about this, to be honest. Everyone has their own relative opinion of each brand. I personally love my T60, but after seeing all the talk about the T61s not doing so well I don't know if I will buy from Lenovo again until they get their act together.

As pipsqueak (on the ThinkPads.com forum) said:

There is a whole discussion going on over there, but to highlight one points out its a comparison to the older D620 instead of the newer D630, although I believe both actually are built upon the same chassis.

In my personal experience my T60 is very solid and I can pick up my laptop by the hinges or edges or corners without any concern. However I am always very careful with my laptop so I always use both hands and try to be very gentle and safe with caring for my laptop.

 

As much as I hate that the T61 has a plastic skin, and as much as I hate that the T61's internal rollcage is a rather incomplete replacement of a thick magnesium, REAL chassis, having a magnesium rollcage as a laptop's structure is a lot better than having the plastic as part of the structure. On the D630, the plastic is part of the structure. Because the plastic on the T61 isn't part of the structure, it doesn't feel as well constructed and cheap, which I also hate. But, while the T61 feels less durable, the outer plastic doesn't matter and the internal rollcage beats out Dell's plastic structure any day.

 

Yep, I'm sticking with the T60 series for a long while. It was the last IBM ThinkPad they say.

 

I just got my T61 today and we roll out Dell D620s at work. I prefer the D620 personally but considering I got the T61 for $729...I'm not too upset about it.

 

You do realize that comes from a completely unaccredited source, do you not?

I'm not defending either side here, but if you're going to claim something such as this, find an accredited source, not a personal opinion on another forum.

 

Umm....T60's have the same chassis design as the T61 with the exception of the lid, which the dude at thinkpads.com wasn't even complaining about. Not to mention, Lenovo has been the ODM for T42 onwards. Your assumption that this is some widespread T61 issue is absurd.

 

Nah, he's loling at it because of how absurd he feels it is that someone could conclude "I think the Dell has a little bit better solid feel". Just a little cross forum pollination.

 

My previous experience with owning a Thinkpad is what drove me to not even consider Lenovo when I went laptop shopping this time.

All I remember fromt hat laptop is creeak creeeak creeak creeeak. Every time you moved it, it would creak like an old wooden ship. And then one of the hinges broke.

 

My previous experience was an absolute opposite of yours.
The Inspiron I had was an absolute joke, quality wise.
The Thinkpad I've just gotten is build like a tank.

 

Sometimes, I wish IBM had not sold their PC-division unit to Lenovo. There is still a gap between US and China

 

I must admit that this thinkpad was a 486, and this was around 1991-1992

But still!

All the Dell notebooks Ive used at work have been great, with the exception of one that started to get a flaky touch-pad, so I disabled it and used a mouse. But that was a company laptop that got taken everywhere, by several different people, and was greatly abused (and held up to it admirably)

 

I disagree. Dell Latitudes are not better built than Thinkpads.

 

And that just came from a guy who owns a Latitude D630

 

Can't get any more unbiased than that.

Ahhh.

I thought he was actually agreeing with the asinine sentiment that Dells were better than ThinkPads.

Perish the thought. Seriously.

 

Ahem, I'm not LOLing because I think its absurd, but rather how DELL is now taking on thinkpads.
I own a DELL precision M90 notebook by the way, My T30 died last year. Our group also has not had good experience with thinkpads, with motherboard failure, fan errors etc

 

I only said:

I did not say Thinkpads are better built than Latitudes. I do not think one is significantly better than the other.

 

Take that moderate sensibility elsewhere. This is the interweb- be xtRmE or be gone!

 

yea, if your not a loyal thinkpader, than go join the MICHEAL < DELL > show on the isolated Dell forum.

loyalty appreciated!

 

Well, there IS a gap between US and China... Its called the Pacific Ocean! lol!

Cheers,
Nick

 

If I were in the market for a new notebook, I would consider the D630. It's well built and fairly inexpensive with a three year warranty standard. Some swear by trackpoint which is better on the ThinkPad, but I don't use it much so it's not a huge issue for me.

 

And I don't have a ton of experience, but to me I haven't seen hinges better than the thinkpads.

 

Does the lid on the t61 have the rubberized feel?

 

isn't it more expensive than the t61?

 

It depends.

 

Here in Canada, it is.

Just spec'ed a D630 to match a 16U T61.
T7300, WXGA+, 120GB, 1GB, IntelAGN, Bluetooth, FP reader...

D630 came to $1849
T61 is $1549.

Unsure of Dell Coupons in Canada, but via visaperks, the 16U is $1399.

 

I have to agree with some of the points about the thinkpads having a lot of flex at certain areas such as above the express cards, above optical drive and the cooling vents. I purchased an R-51 with flexview last year and initially it seemed real solid and built like a tank but with time and use I found out it had a few weaknesses like the plastic grill covering the vent finally broke since it was flexible to begin with.

It's not like the Thinkpads have some magic ingredients that make them the toughest notebooks and no other company can or will ever build solid laptops like them if not better. I have noticed the quality of thinkpads to suffer in recent years since I have used older Thinkpads before IBM sold their division (yes I know Lenovo made thinkpads before too) but the older ones never had that flexible feel as the newer ones seem to have.

 

We all long for the glory days of the T20-era but with new technology to cram into a small and ever lighter case there are bound to be compromises. My T43 has weak plastic bits on the sides, for sure, but the overall feel is nice, and the T4x series is not considered to be as well built as the T6x by some. I've also never had to make use of any IBM warranty on any of my machines. All have worked flawlessly for the time I had them.

The key factor for me is how the case stands up over time. With the four thinkpads I've owned over the years I've never had a problems with hinges, parts breaking off etc. I've seen Dells with floppy hinges and cracked cases. Having said that, however, Dells are so widespead in the business world and with the amount of abuse I've seen people put loaner computers through I'm amazed at how well they hold up. Kudos to Dell.

I'm curious why everyone is so down on the rollcage and "cheap" plastic skin of the T61. I would've thought that the rollcage design is no cheaper to manufacture than a plain old alloy skin design so therefore it was implemented for legitimate performance reasons, not just to cut costs. Am I wrong?

Despite my continued support of Thinkpads I did consider the D630 but thanks to my EPP contact the T61 worked out a lot cheaper I was also able to order a 4:3 T61, which was another factor. But I do stand by my comment on Thinkpads.com that no dynasty lasts forever.

In the 1990s, Thinkpads used to be known as Stinkpads by some of the IT folks I worked with due to their implementation of buggy proprietary technology. Then they went more mainstream and won accolades for their rugged and conservative design (and great keyboards). Now that a few other manufacturers have started building notebooks to withstand more abuse (allegedly), Thinkpads are starting to lose that edge. Who knows how Thinkpads will be defined in another few years?

Thinkpads will have to start proving themselves in some other way and IMO Lenovo missed a huge opportunity by dropping the 4:3 ratio screens (or at least making them impossibly hard to get hold of). I believe there would be a huge, unfulfilled market for 4:3 notebooks as all other manufacturers go widescreen. Offer widescreen as an option, sure, but don't turn your back on the 4:3 market.

I still cling to the glory days of IBM in other ways... I'm typing this on my tank-like Model M-13 keyboard

 

The R-51 isn't exactly a quintessential example of the legendary ThinkPad quality. It's quite unfair to assume the weaknesses of the R-5x budget line apply to all other recent ThinkPad series.

 

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=46059

They are hell bent on ruining their reputation.
I believe Dell's business division is more professional.

 

T40/41 are considered better built. T42 onwards is Lenovo built.

 

I was talking more about the overall design... the T20 was built like a tank, the T30 was a dog for other reasons, and the T4x series all had the same design AFAIK, with the thin plastic bits and creaky palmrests. My T40 was made in China and had a creaky palmrest and the same flimsy plastic bits on the sides!

 

T61 is comparable to a Latitude D630, but the latter is more expensive currently.

Most would agree that Lenovo/IBM is better than a Dell Business class notebook.

So the way I look at it, why pay extra for an inferior piece of machine?

 

Any evidence for that?

 

Sure. Just search for all the threads with a poll (not just in the Lenovo/IBM section, but in notebookreview.com in general). Check the ratings from all the tech magazines as well.

 

Tech magazines are terrible at reviews. The reviewing criteria is often inconsistent, the hardware of the laptops they compare is also inconsistent. It's quite stupid when PC Magazine says the T61 is a better performer than the D630 when they were outfitted with a T7500 and T7300, respectively. It's also stupid when cNet says the D630 has better battery life when its config had a 9-cell battery while the T61 was configured with a 6-cell. They compare apples to oranges. If they can't find any cons, they'll say something vague like, "Too expensive" and dock a few points unless the company they're reviewing paid them off.

Notebookreview.com polls are dubious. Many TP fanboys on NBR vote just on reputation in brand vs. brand polls and don't actually even own a TP.

Bad evidence.

 

That is not proof, that is opinion.

EDIT: I am disappointed Lenovo did not release a 14.1" T61P with WSXGA+ resolution.

 

The R-51 was always touted as the desktop replacement and regarded as one of the toughest (if not THE) thinkpads so I beg to differ on that, plus my sister was given an old R series laptop when she was in college and that one took far more abuse than my somewhat pampered R-51 since she had her 13 year old played havoc on that laptop and still it sustained all the punishment with ease. Had it been my much newer R51, I seriously doubt it would've lasted even a month.

Im just comparing the same series laptop i.e the R where one was from the pentium 3 era and mine is Pentium M, so I know for sure that the build quality has definitely taken a hit, maybe to reduce the prices further which does make sense since Lenovo wants to make money more than anything else.

 

I'd have to agree with that. I remember reading the HP nx7400 review on Cnet. They were saying it didn't have this or that, but were comparing to much more expensive notebooks.

The logic doesn't follow. The T42 was already on the board long before Lenovo got there.


My R60 is still very solid, probably more so that my T42, after nine months of use though I don't abuse it much.

 

well what's your opinion?

I said most (as in most here on NBR) think thinkpads are better. I don't know if there is a better way to find evidence for this claim.

 

No, I didn't.

 

Like I said, most here (as in NBR.com) think Lenovo is better. However that could easily be different nationally or globally.

 

..but NBR is the voice of reason.

 

You need to find a credible unbiased source. Wall Street Journal writes a yearly report on computers and laptops. The posts on NBR are extremely biased. Customers write about their products based on opinions and not fact. I found very little difference between a T61, R61 and D630.

 

definitely, but my whole point from the beginning was most here think it's better and someone asked for evidence...

basically I was trying to show most here on NBR think IBM/Lenovo is better, which doesn't mean NBR is right...but just one opinion as a whole.

 

Opinions are neither right or wrong. It does not matter how many people think Thinkpads are better than Latitudes. Opinions are not objective measurements.

 

exactly, hence it doesn't necessarily have to right or wrong.

Just curious what's your opinion?

 

I think they are about the same. I received a better price on a D630, but if I received a better price on a T61 I would be typing on a T61 right now instead.

 

That's absolute crap trying to pretend this was your mindset all along. You were trying to use the collective opinion as an objective measure of T61 and D630 quality.

See the top quote? You use the opinions of people, which you never at first clarified to be people on NBR, to try to validate your claim that the D630 is an inferior piece of machine. You have no other qualifiers, so its obviously you were trying to use the "most would agree that...." statement as a reason.

 

The T61's (with integrated camera) bezel/rollcage is a huge disappointment. The bezel does not mate with the roll cage chassis leaving gaps that a fingernail can fit between. I bought one and sent it in for repairs and it returned with pretty much the same issue just in different locations. A $400 Acer fits better than that. I checked them out at Microcenter. That's pretty sad. It's the reason I returned mine.