T410s impressions/GPU woes

The size, build, and keyboard of my new T410s could not be better. The keyboard was the biggest surprise - I didn't expect it would be easier to type on than my T42.

I was less pleasantly surprised when I tested out the Nvidia graphics by trying Civ IV. Needless to say, it's far from the most demanding game. With the graphics set to the lowest possible level, gameplay stuttered and was almost unplayable. When I switched over to the integrated Intel graphics, the game ran just fine. Would it be correct to assume this is a driver issue?

I'm also disappointed that the fan performance is very poor whenever one has the nvidia graphics enabled. In a cool room with nothing more than MS Word running, the fan alternates between silence and a noticeable volume at one minute intervals. Setting the power interface to minimize fan noise worsens the problem - the interval simply shortened so I more frequently noticed the fan revving up and then slowing down. The problem goes away when I have the intel graphics enabled.

I am also sorry to report that my system does have the infamous "cpu whine," though I don't hear it all the time. I've yet to make out a pattern.

My T410s has 4gb RAM and the 128gb SSD. Everything else seems to be working properly. This is my first SSD and the experience has been as revelatory as advertised.

I'd be grateful for any comments on the above! Many thanks.

 

Would you mind giving out some battery specs and what kind of CPU you have?

Renee

 

You bet. I have the i5-520 and the standard (6 cell, I think?) battery, DVD-RW in the ultrabay.

 

I have theorized in the other T410s thread that the stuttering may be due to GPU overheating. This makes sense due to the thin nature of the T410s, but it is just a theory of mine.

 

I'm very quickly beginning to regret my purchase. I noted that the fan kept to reasonable speeds/volumes when I switched to integrated graphics. This is no longer the case. With very light system stress (MS Word and a photo viewer), the fan becomes noticeably louder after 45 minutes or so of use and doesn't slow down until the machine is restarted.

 

do you know how to monitor temperature on your laptop? It will give you a better idea of what might be going on under the hood. Try using software like HWMonitor to see CPU temps and GPUZ for your video - both of which are free.

 

Yes, I have monitored temperatures extensively on this laptop and the stuttering problem seems to only kick in when the temperatures are measured in the upper 80c to lower 90c range. This supports my high temperature throttling hypothesis but proves nothing.

As far as I can tell, the T410s only has the cpu temperature sensor. I have used, HWmonitor, GPUZ, and TPFanControl and none are able to see anything but the cpu sensor. No GPU sensor seems to be readable, so it is difficult to see what temperature the graphics unit is running at.

 

I'm going to try out TPFanControl and report back. As it turns out, the fan is noticeably loud in a quiet room even when I'm using the integrated graphics. It's almost totally silent for about 45 minutes, then it kicks on and it doesn't stop until you've restarted the machine (running little more than MS Word and a photo viewer, task manager confirms low CPU stress). Maybe the fan control program will help.

I'm having a hard time justifying spending the extra money on the discrete graphics when it seems to bring zero advantages. Should I try a driver update perhaps?

 

I recently purchased an Ideapad V460 and have the same problems as T410s.
The GPU temperature is a bit high even in idle mode.
The fan kicks on just running with MS word or IE.

 

I don't mind high temperatures in an of themselves, it's just that in this case the high temperatures seem to lead directly to degraded performance in games or other 3d intensive applications.

The only solution so far that I have found is to create a custom fan profile in TPFanControl that blasts the fan at the "64" setting (roughly 5400 RPM), and turn on this profile whenever I want to play a game. This seems to alleviate the problem, but seems to be a rather hacky solution to a problem that I am a little irritated even exists.

 

how's the battery life?

 

I used TPM Fantrontrol to set the fan at the max setting. I fired up Civ IV again using the Nvidia graphics and the results were definitely improved. That said, they still weren't great and it's not clear that performance was a whole lot better than my T42 with the Radeon 9600. The max temp I hit was 86 C.

Meanwhile I'm considering using TPM Fan control to keep the fan noise level down for general usage. Is there a thread discussing the best way to do so?

 

Try updating the bios. As of mid june there is an update that fixes many issues. In fact its the most issues fixed that Ive ever seen with a thinkpad bios update.

Also if the bios update doesn't fix your fan/heat problem (which it should) try using a program called tpfancontrol. (Link Below) its free and very awesome. This will allow you to manually control your fan accordingly.

TPFanControl by troubadix

I just purchased a T410s with almost identical specs as yours. Latest drivers, bios, and updates. The system works absolutely perfectly

-Dean

 

Thanks Dean, I'm glad to hear it. I have a few follow up questions, if you don't mind!

Have you tested the Nvidia performance with a game?

What are some of the issues that the bios update solved in your particular case?

Many thanks. I must be going crazy because I'm on the verge of returning the T410s for a Thinkpad Edge 14.

 

Did you update your bios yet? Did it work?

ebg

 

I'm confused...you just said in another thread that you're still waiting for your T410s.

ebg

 

Your observation about our friend Dean is bizarre - good catch. He seems to be awfully excited about receiving a T410s for a guy who already has one in perfect working order.

I updated the bios but I've only been using the machine in loud environments so I can't say if it affected the fan behavior.

I've basically decided to return the machine and get something less expensive. I bought my T42 in order to have one machine that I could use for everything. Obviously I wasn't maxing it out with the fastest games available, but essentially it fulfilled all of my needs. My impression is that the new crop of thin and light business-oriented notebooks aren't able to keep up. The T410s isn't as capable of an all around machine as my T42 was 5 years ago. I'd be very interested in hearing from folks who've actually had good experiences with the nvidia graphics. At the moment I feel that I paid extra for a feature that doesn't add any value.

I'll probably get at T410 with an i3, HDD, and integrated graphics. That shaves $600 off the cost which I can then spend on desktop upgrades.

 

I've been looking for a new computer since February and I'm more frustrated than I've ever been as a consumer. It's hard to believe that for someone like me who is willing to pay upwards of three times the cost of your typical bestbuy $700 machine that what I want is not out there. I want a nice screen, which makes all the business portables less desirable. I like the vaio z but can't stand the thought of not being able to change the hard drive. I want a professional machine and not a 'bling' gamer computer like an alienware or g73. (Turning all this around - maybe I've just gotten to picky. Like for example the envy 14 seems to have generated excitement here but I don't like the flowery textures on the case. I'm too picky.)

That being said I think I might get the T410s and keep my fingers crossed. Whatever mr Dean's true situation may be, he is correct that the june 13 bios update seems to have resolved similar fan and frame freeze issues - there is at least one person on the lenovo forums who reports a good result, though she says her fan still runs alot.

Frustrated - ebg.

 

I'm glad to hear I'm not imagining the whole situation. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with my T410s.....if I had $1600 to spend on a really fast web browser and word processing beast.

Lenovo was surprisingly good about waiving the restocking fee - and they'll even cover return shipping - so I have no qualms about sending it back.

 

BTW is there a way to have TPM FanControl monitor fan speed without actually controlling it? That interface is confusing.

 

That's exactly what the "BIOS" setting does

 

Figured it was right there in front of me somewhere. Thanks for helping out an amateur.

 

Yes set the tpfancontrol mode to "SMART" this will bypass the normal bios settings and TPfancontroler will take control and determine fan speed.

 

BIOS setting in TPfancontrol means the normal fan speed and control. Pretty much when you set it to BIOS the fan will run just as it would if you werent using TPfancontrol.

 

Dont renturn your T410s, its new hardware, give it some time and LEnovo will work all the bugs out. When i got my T61 3 years ago it was the same way. I had so many problems. but lenovo listened and they fixed many issues. Plus Ive noticed they pushed out a ton of bios updates already for the T410s and its new. Which tells me they are getting on top of all the problems.

Here is the changes made to the latest bios update.

Where:

•BIOS: BIOS version
•ECP: Embedded Controller Program version
•[Important] Important update
•(New) New function or enhancement
•(Fix) Correction to existing function
Version 1.16-1.10
BIOS: 1.16 / ECP: 1.10

•(Fix) Fixed an issue where usable memory was displayed under 3GB on 64bit OS even 4GB or more memory installed.
Version 1.15-1.10
BIOS: 1.15 / ECP: 1.10

•(New) Adding option for suppressing unsupported AC adapter warning message by F3 key.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where showing incorrect power consumption with docking station.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where USB device might not be recognized when Always On USB is enabled.
Version 1.14-1.09
BIOS: 1.14 / ECP: 1.09

•(Fix) Corrected an description of Problem fixes in this README document.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where the screen might not be displayed on LCD panel on NVIDIA NVS 3100M model when system booted with closed LCD.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where system might not be resumed on non-Windows ACPI OS.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where screen garbage might be displayed with 2nd HDD in Ultrabay during resuming from suspend.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where a incorrect IP address of HPM (Hardware Password Manager) server might be displayed on HPM logon screen.
Version 1.11-1.08
BIOS: 1.11 / ECP: 1.08

•(New) Improve key input response.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where StartUp Interrupt Menu can not be displayed by condition.
•(Fix) For vPro users: Fixed an issue where multiple provisioning data handling by USB key provisioning does not work.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where network boot may not be executed via ethernet device.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where screen may not displayed on LCD panel when pressing Fn+F7 key on NVIDIA NVS 3100M model when system boot with closed LCD.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where an device with yellow "!" in device manager on ThinkPad T410si.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue optical media may not be ejected by once pressing eject button.
Version 1.09-1.06
BIOS: 1.09 / ECP: 1.06

•(New) On Windows Vista, use NVIDIA display adapter only.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where the ExpressCard device might not work after restarting the computer.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue that Disabling Intel AMT option in the BIOS Setup menu did not function correctly.
Version 1.05-1.06
BIOS: 1.05 / ECP: 1.06

•(Fix) Fixed an issue where battery authentication might be failed.
Version 1.05-1.05
BIOS: 1.05 / ECP: 1.05

•(New) Adjusted LED brightness of mic mute button.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where main battery would be used first even though main and sub battery are attached.
•(Fix) Fixed an issue where battery charging was stopped if the battery's current capacity was over than "Start charging" capacity at resuming from sleep state.
Version 1.05-1.04
BIOS: 1.05 / ECP: 1.04

•(New) Initial release for ThinkPad T410 and ThinkPad T410si.


That is very entensive... usually Lenovo will push out BIOS updates twice a year..

but as you can see theyve done six since the release of the t410s... 6 months ago..

PS sorry about my spelling and what not, im in a hurry

 

Are you a Lenovo plant?

 

I think you're right oxlmoos. The idea that you should live with crap and hope enough BIOS fixes might, if you're lucky, sort out the problem is ludicrous.

I don't have any of the problems you're having with the G310m in my V460, which is a much cheaper machine. I've been playing Civ IV (Fall From Heaven) on all settings high, anti-aliasing x2, 1366x768 resolution without a hitch. GPU temp hits 70 and cpu just over 60. If Lenovo can get that right on my $650 notebook you shouldn't have to put up with 80 degree cpu temps in your T410s!

Edit: Oh, and if I'm making the V460 sound good, it's great except for a three hours battery life!

 

It was one of the reasons I returned the T400s. I considered buying the T410s because the form factor and keyboard are great. But I was unimpressed with the screen, performance, and noise. What a shame the improvements aren't more pronounced in the T410s.

 

First of all, the Nvidia Quadro NVS 3100M is NOT designed for gaming. See this link:
Notebookcheck: NVIDIA Quadro NVS 3100M
It's a business class laptop and has a video card designed for CAD/CAM and other business graphics uses. Business class also means its built to last and to travel.

Sorry to hear about your fan problem. I've never heard my fan running but I'm rarely in a totally silent environment.

My T410 seems absolutely perfect. I have the integrated Intel HD graphics, which, by the way, is the best integrated graphics solution I've ever seen and I've had over 20 laptops. It uses the new GMA 5700MHD gpu and with these new chipsets, can be overclocked by the CPU when needed. I've seen a lot of problems reported by folks who have the discrete graphics option on this model.

 

Thanks to halobox and raydabruce for the comments. The issue here seems to be hardware, and they're problems that likely won't be entirely solved with BIOS updates.

Re the Nvidia graphics: yes, they're low performance - as billed - but I wonder what justification there could be for even offering such a poorly performing graphics option. As I've said before, the ATI graphics in my T42 (ie of 2004 vintage) performed as well or better than the T410s Nvidia graphics on Civ IV (release date: 2005). There's simply no excuse for that. I had no intention whatsoever of playing the latest and greatest games. In the case of the T410s, I suspect (admittedly without firm evidence) that the GPU problem has to do with engineering, namely overheating when the system is under heavy load.

Thanks for the comments on the T410, raydabruce. I'm tempted by the price/features, I just want to shed some weight. I'd absolutely love to have something under 4 lbs since it'll be travelling with me on a daily basis. The T410s was perfect in that regard. I'm going to try replacing my T42 fan in the meantime while waiting for my ideal system to appear, or else a mega deal on a T410s with the bare minimum hardware. I've given up on the idea of a thin and light that can handle even the minimum gaming I'm interested in. If it happens, great. But my priority now is a 13.3"-14" laptop at around 4lbs with a nice keyboard, costing no more than $1,000.

 

The graphics hardware itself should be no different from the equivalent GeForce series chip. No reason it should perform any differently unless the drivers are different, in which case software should be able to correct the issue.

 

I have pretty much all but confirmed that it is thermal issues that cause the graphics stuttering. I have created an alternate profile in TPFanControl that kicks the fan up to level 64 (~5400 RPM) when the temperatures get above a certain level. Although the computer now sounds like a small vacuum, gaming is possible now with now overheating or stuttering issues.

It is an ungainly solution, but it works just fine. I just keep the computer on the integrated graphics and a lower fan speed whenever I'm not playing a game. Other than this issue, the T410s has been fantastic.

 

Just to let you know - I am experiencing the exact same issues on my T410s with switchable. Games stuttering - heck even just video and moving windows around the desktop stutters when the temperature gets up there. I'm stuck on discrete most of the time as I use it to drive a couple external screens when in the docking station.

In the beginning when i first got at around 1 1/2 month ago, it was even worse. Sitting in the docking station playing video on external screen could bring it to its knees. It even got to the point where I experienced ramdom freezes when temp got too high. After a week of that and testing it thoroughly, I did a service repair where they changed the Motherboard.
Now I am experiencing exactly same behavior as you raise. Maybe it's time to try service-repair round 2.

I'm still thrilled with it when it works, but I am pretty shure, like you, that it's a defect design.... I'll wait another month or so and send it off for repairs again, and see if they have come up with something new to fix it ... but I'm not betting on it.

 

It really seems like it is a design flaw. It was the last thing I was waiting from Lenovo, that I will have to have problems with overheating. It is eve worse it is happening in a machine like T410s. Sony is doing well with a 330m in their Z series, which is 13.3". I am currently occupied so I just play a few flash games. I watch films on the integrated, even Blu-rays without problems. I haven't used the dedicated card for a time. But after a week my holiday is coming and I'm already planning to the gaming to see what this 310m can do. I am also planning to get the docking station, but I wonder if it will worsen the cooling or not.

Larswa, after your second service-repair round 2, please give us some report how the repair went.

PS.: I also read on thinkpads forum that many machines get a display problem with vertical line across the display. I got it 2 times already as well, but succeded to get it off by mechanical stressing of the display. I am wondering if anybody is having the same problem from you guys.

 

Yup ... will update this thread - or maybe create a new when I have had it for next round of repairs. Will wait a month or more and hope that they might have some new tricks up their sleeves...

I am looking at the Sony Z series as well ... Even though I am true to Thinkpad's I would propably go with the Sony if I could go back on buying the T410S...

 

do people with the integrated graphics also have this problem? I wouldn't want another laptop with throttling issues.

 

I have started and participated in a number of these threads, and in most of them there have been one or more users with the integrated cards. They have all expressed that this is not an issue that they can recognize. I haven't had one myself though, but from the feedback I have read that is what I understand.

You should be able to google most of those threads. Also look at forums.lenovo.com and forums.thinkpads.com

 

It's a bummer to hear that this problem is so widespread, though I'm not surprised given my own experiences. I really liked my T410s, I just couldn't afford to spend so much on a machine that wouldn't be able to handle the minimal amount of gaming I plan to do. This is one solution (note: the forum is currently down but should be back up soon) but of course then one doesn't need to pay extra for discrete graphics.

The whole thing has made me realize that what I really want is a 13-14" notebook weighing 4 lbs or less with a solid keyboard and enough processing power to last me three years or so. Oh, while preferably costing less than the T410s (Where's that T410si??). If anyone has any suggestions I'd be glad to hear them, even if they're non-Lenovo. The quality keyboard really is key. Otherwise I may just go T410 and live with the 5+ pounds for the next few years.

 

im in the same boat as you are. I am tired of carrying around my 5+ lbs Latitude, but all the laptops that weigh less than 4lbs have a 16:9 screen which i don't like. I guess i have to decide if I want to put up with the 16:9

 

What other alternatives are out there? My options are 1) waiting for the T410si..whenever that is 2) going with the heavier than desired T410 or 3) Edge 13 (am I really considering this?).

At the end of the day I'm basically just looking for a thin and light word processor.

 

Why not just go with an older x200?? I have one of those too ... they take a beating and keep on ticking ... full sized great thinkpad keyboard ... 9 cell battery lasts forever, and you can buy the expresscard video extender for an external graphics card. And the old X200 should be cheaper by now.

If I would choose over I might just have gotten the x201 and done just that.

I just noticed that the T410S I got did not have the Expresscard ... doh :-/ I didn't even think to check that part of the specs. Didn't think you could get a laptop without one ...

 

Those are some good suggestions. I still think I need more screen real estate. A friend has a new x201 and it's great but the screen is too small and I'm disappointed with the keyboard. I don't know if there are keyboards of varying quality as there were when I received my T42 and called in to get the Thai model. The T410s keyboard was really great, so maybe I just have to wait a while to see if those prices drop a bit.