T530's keyboard really surprised me!!!

Hello,

I got my new T530 today. Everything seems looks similar to my T510.

However, I have really mixed feeling about its keyboard design. Please see the two pictures attached.

530:
510:


1. The T530 changed the location of many functional keys and puts them one one line. I dont like it. Lenovo also moved some of the functional keys, which requires me to change my typing habbit. Grrrrrr!

2. The keys are not adjacent to each other any more. I guess it is good to for cleaning, but I like bigger keys.

3. The delete key, enter key, etc. are smaller now. Difficult to reach it.

4. The materials for the keys are easy to attract oil or finger prints than my T510's. Hate it.


Also, there is more space between the functional keys and the bottom of the screen, which is kind of wasted.

Why the heck did Lenovo do this? Does the T530's keyboard design represent a better or fashion design?

You thoughts?

 

You just figured this out?

This change happened last summer-ish. It's been a hotly contested change to Lenovo loyalists, but to be honest, I greatly prefer it over the older design. So much that I bought an X230 and will be selling off my T520. I was one of the people who initially flipped out when I saw the new design...I trashed it on blogs and message boards. I vowed to never buy another Thinkpad...then:

I received a work X230 tablet and grew to love the new design. I type much more accurately and faster on it...and I've been using Thinkpads religiously for the past 12 years, so I'm very accustomed to the older design.

I'd say give it a week or so. I'd be willing to bet you'll like it better.

You can re-map the Fn and Ctrl key (swap them) in the BIOS.

 

From your experience, I understand it should be a hotly-debated thing.

The material is really easy to attract finger prints. You like it?

The keys on 510 really give you a solid feel.

I feel Lenovo is making Thinkpads simpler, easier to roll out from a prodution line to have more profit out of cheap labor.

I feel Thinkpads are losing their unique, quality, appealing design...

Just my 2 cents.

 

I agree, the new keyboard is very good, but if you've got the old one mapped into your brain, the new one will will probably never make you happy. A backlit keyboard is an often request feature for ThinkPads and easier to do on the chiclet style keyboard. The world has moved to chiclet style keyboards and using something else is more expensive. Wait until you find the trackpoint buttons missing on the new ThinkPads.

 

>>Wait until you find the trackpoint buttons missing on the new ThinkPads.

Well, the day when trackpoint is missing, I will say good bye to Thinkpads....I so much like it and it is so convenient, easy to control....

 

Oh me too. If the trackpoint disappears, I disappear from Lenovo's customer base. This is a fact.

 

The trackpoint is not going anywhere, but they trackpad is going to become a 5 button clickpad where the trackpoint buttons will be in the top portion of the trackpad. Check out video previews of the Thinkpad Helix and you'll see it. So things are changing, but the trackpoint is staying at least.

On the keyboard, I went from a more classic design on my N50 to chicklet on my G73 and back to some kind of hybrid on my Precision. Also used a T420 on occasions. So far the T420 and Precision keyboards are my favorites.

 

That was the reason I bought ThinkPads, not because they moved with the trend, because they rejected it. While everyone went crappy keyboards, Lenovo kept it up. They've kept the same basic ThinkPad design for 15+ years. One buys ThinkPad because they want what isn't "hip". And hence _20 series generation is the last ThinkPad line I will buy.

 

I think you could argue that IBM, the originator of ThinkPads, was an innovator/trend setter more than any other brand. Many of the things taken for granted on laptops like the trackpoint for example were ThinkPad inventions, but it's a very different world now, even in the last few years. Due to fierce competition from other makers and even tablets too, few are willing to pay big bucks for a laptop. I can kind of see both sides of it. ThinkPads are a great brand and people obviously love them, but you can't just keep producing the same over and over again. Eventually, someone will come along a better mouse trap and you'll be swimming up stream. If you don't change, you die. I wouldn't be honest if I said I was overjoyed about the dropping of the trackpad buttons, but I'll wait until I use it before I decide. Life is funny and things often turn out very differently than you thought going in.

 

So you are just going to throw away a business model that has worked for 15+ years? I'm not doubting the change in the market, but to change your core aspect of a ThinkPad (ie keyboard, TrackPoint, top notch software, build quality, reliability) is akin to Toyota killing off the Camry just because a few years slump in sales (as an example). IMO what Lenovo has done recently will turn away more ThinkPad buyers more than anything, at least that's the feeling I get from TPF and die-harders. I don't see where you are getting where people don't buy expensive computers, that is exactly what huge corporations do, is buy in bulk ThinkPads, as does government agencies. Again, that is what keeps the followers, is keeping the same, just updating the specifications. If Lenovo kept the x series tablet the way it was, I would have considered it over my Alienware M11x. Heck I think ajkula66 said he wouldn't have any new ThinkPad into his home says a pretty strong message..

 

Define worked? IBM always said the PC division worked was a money loser, which is why the sold it. I think Lenovo's sales figures would run contrary to your opinion about driving customers away. I think the people here and TPF are enthusiasts and are not really representative of the market as a whole.

Where does it say if you buy ThinkPads in large numbers you're impervious to cost? Large institutional buyers care about cost and compatibility. They want inexpensive notebooks like everyone else and will argue vehemently over an increase in unit cost. This is how you end up with ThinkPads like Edge and the X131. They work and they're cheap.

You certainly can buy something else if you don't like the direction ThinkPads are going in. That's the power you have.

 

My question is whether the changes in the keyboard, in the trackpoint, or in the hinges are based on cost considerations or not. Not that I know anything, but I think Lenovo is selling enough thinkpads to be able to continue sourcing a traditional keyboard from the manufacturers instead of messing around with it.

The fact that there is a backlit and non-backlit version of the new keyboard, as well as different keyboard versions for different models (the Edge, T series, and X1 Carbon all have different keyboards for example) suggests to me that cost-cutting wasn't the reason for the keyboard change. I'm guessing -- without any real evidence however -- that people at Lenovo thought that implementing a backlit keyboard would be good for sales, but perhaps implementing the backlighting on a keyboard with so many keys as the traditional thinkpad keyborad would be prohibitively expensive, and so they decided to switch to a newer, less functional design so that they could implement backlighting. Perhaps in doing so, Lenovo also ended up with a lower unit cost for the non-backlit keyboards.

The point is that if these speculations have some truth, the keyboard switch wasn't purely a cost motivation. I believe that maintaining distinctive features such as a full keyboard layout and the trackpoint enable Lenovo to maintain a distinctive character for the thinkpad lines that enables differentiation from the competition. But again, I have no concrete evidence that this is important from a sales standpoint

 

Someone called????

You wouldn't expect me of all people to stay quiet on this topic, would you now?

I've tried the new keyboard on several models, and it's arguably the best island one around. Lenovo might have sold me on it had they kept the layout. Given that they didn't all bets are off. I'm done.

Now, a couple of other things here...

While PC Division was a money pit for IBM that wasn't the sole reason it got sold, not by a long stretch. The Big Blue - or at least some folks high up within it - was afraid of another "monopoly" lawsuit and possibly sharing the fate of The Bell System. Let's not forget that Ma Bell wasn't taken down by the first lawsuit either...so instead of allowing the government to slice them up, IBM sold off all the extra limbs, so to speak, and got rid of a *ton* of manpower in the process. Win-win for decision makers.

Now, back to Lenovo and the new keyboard layout, and the future of ThinkPads...

When the "new" layout made its debut on economy series a couple of years ago, hell and high water broke loose from many old-time-ThinkPad-users, but we were assured and re-assured that the layout in question would not hit the "mainstream" ThinkPads. We all know how well that promise was kept.

Let me also remind you of Matt Kohut's blog post on giving up the TrackPoint, seen here:

Time to give up TrackPoint? - Perspectives - Lenovo Blogs

Well, Lenovo saw the lynch mob around the corner after that one and postponed the execution of the trackpoint, but while the red dot is still present, the TrackPoint as we know it is already gone. So the beloved red button is currently on life support in my not-so-modest opinion.

How on Earth did we get here, to this valley of doom and gloom for ThinkPad devotees?

One thing to be considered is a change of corporate culture all over the globe. Lenovo placed its bets on the idea that people who actually value proper keyboards are on their way to retirement, or at least not in any position of power anymore, and that the younger crowd who uses all-things-Apple as a comparison point should be their target market. The fact that they gravely offended the vast majority of long-time customers in the process was the price that they were willing to pay.

Reminds me of MS and W8 to a degree...but that belongs in a whole another thread...

Personally, I'm just allergic to lies and excuses, and I've been handed one too many of those from Lenovo.

I'm also not keen on having my intelligence insulted by corporate arrogance.

I already know what the next workstation-class laptop in this household will be. It will arrive in the first week of June when its current owner upgrades his fleet.

No, it's not a ThinkPad. First time in well over a decade.

Yes, its keyboard leaves a *lot* to be desired when compared to a conventional ThinkPad one, and will take a major adjustment on the part of its new owners (my wife has been using ThinkPads longer than I have, so...may the Force be with me when she gets her hands on that thing for the first time) but...in return for sacrificing the keyboard layout and quality, I'm getting a drop-dead-gorgeous IPS screen.

Lenovo took the keyboard away without offering anything to compensate for it.

 

ajkula, I'm guessing Precision or Elitebook, leaning towards the elitebook as a guess?

Just being curious.

 

An excellent guess on your end, tijo...:thumbsup:

EliteBook it is...

 

Well, I can at least say that given that you can replace the HP's trackpoint with a Thinkpad's you're in for a good trackpoint experience. Dell's trackpoint is definitely lacking compared to Lenovo's and I got a pretty good guess as to why.

 

Agreed. My daughter had one of the older business-class HPs from PM era (NC6220 or something like that) and the keyboard and trackpoint (once I swapped the cap) were actually quite decent.

Not to mention that I'll get real buttons on EliteBook as opposed to "virtual" ones on the latest ThinkPads...

 

Well, I think the 5 button clickpad makes sense on certain models like the Helix due to size, but not so much on other models.

 

I must admit, i really do like the backlit feature on the chiclet keyboard. The layout doesn't bother me a whole lot, but the grease residue does. I'm always constantly wiping my keyboard off with alcohol swabs because it just looks filthy.

If the dedicated trackpoint buttons permanently disappear, then I too will look into an elitebook.

 

Cannot agree with it any more. I feel the material for T530 keyboard is the issue. My T500 or T510 does not have this problem.

 

Well, they usw this Material because of the backlight Feature. The keyboards without Backlight See lade from the same Material as the older keyboards.

They are not virtual. They are mechanical.

 

It's true the new keyboard shows grease more easily, but it's also an indicator of how clean your hands are...

I started paying more attention to the cleanliness of my hands and wash them more often. I only need to wipe off the keyboard with a damp cloth once at the end of the day now.

 

I guess there's no more eating Dorritos while using the ThinkPad.

 

You're missing my point.

On all of my machines, the touchpad is disabled.

What now?

That's why I referred to the new buttons as "virtual": they're (once again, Lenovo) not where they're supposed to be.

 

Well, I would call them "virtual" if they would just be Touch-buttons without a mechnical feedback. But since they are not, and that they still in the same position (underneath the spacebar key), I don´t call them virtual.

The User Guide of the T431s says that you´ll still able to disable the Touchpad while the Trackpoint is enabled.

 

I'm certain that ZaZ will be testing one of these sooner than later and will wait for that review.

If you're correct, that's good news for the minority of oldtimers who have decided to swallow the new keyboard.

It really doesn't matter to me.

As previously stated - I'm done.

 

I accepted the new island style mainly because of the backlit. I do noticed however with my style of typing, I find that I press the "ENTER" key at a weird angle. This was not a problem with the old keyboard but with the newer island style, I can feel the ENTER key rubbing. (I press the enter key at a downward angle apparently).

Anyhow, the straw that will break the camel's back will be the lack of dedicated (I call it "virtual") buttons for the trackpoint. My work offers staff discounts on DELL units for quite a while now, maybe my next unit will be from DELL.

 

After flirting with a MacBook Pro Retina briefly when my T410 died, I learned that I could never justify using a trackpad, given my work and typing style (I have to friggin move my shoulder to navigate my laptop?! People really get used to that?!).

I realized that no matter how bad Lenovo abuses me, I'll stick with them as long as that red dot is in there with its three buttons, even if those three buttons are now covered up in order to appease trackpad users...I'll even take their crappy displays over the Retina display...

We have no choice. Just accept it...

 

Well, now that Lenovo has changed the keyboard layout, we do have a few choices. Not that anyone asked for that in the first place...

Not to mention that accepting a position of admitting that one doesn't have a choice doesn't work too well with me in *any* area of life...

I'd be the last one to suggest switching from ThinkPad to Mac unless one has a very specific need for it.

However, HP and Dell do offer viable alternatives to ThinkPads...

 

Dat troll. Don't pretend you didn’t know about that.

There's a reason why I bought an X220 a week before the launch of the X230.

 

Definitely something for me to consider with my next notebook purchase coming up this year. Been looking at the W530 but was a little put off by the keyboard layout. If they switched to the island style and kept the classic layout, I'd be jumping in with both feet. As it is I'm a little leery. Since I've followed your posts both on here and on TPF for a while, I think you're one of the gurus that know what they're talking about.

I'm a little leery about HP from a previous experience perspective(I've had friends with their consumer-line notebooks and thought they were complete mass-produced junk) but the Dell Precisions have caught my eye. May end up going that route instead if I find a decent deal for the kind of workstation I'm looking for.

 

HP's Business service is usually good, there's always the odd palce where they have incompetent tech for the NBD warranty, but those are the exception rather than the norm. I do like the keyboard on my Precision, It doesn't feel as good as the one on the T420, but it's still decent. The trackpoint on the Precision could definitely be better though.

 

Heh...in my one-horse-town, it's the same two techs that are contracted by IBM, Dell and HP who cover this entire area...both excellent, very experienced and friendly.

The EliteBook that will be coming to me had the board swapped by the very same gentleman who was coming to this house to work on our ThinkPads...

So trust me when I tell you: it doesn't get better than this...:thumbsup:

 

It's nice that they are the same two techs and that they are competent, what I meant is that there is always the odd exception where the tech is so-so, but like I said, it's the exception.

 

Thank you for the kind words.

I'd venture a guess that it was my (involuntary at first) constant exposure to ToughBooks that made me keep my eyes open...

When my employer replaced most of our ThinkPads with ToughBooks somewhere around 2004/2005 - and the loss of serial port on T4x series was the main reason for that decision - I had no choice but to admit that these weird, heavy machines were *exceptionally* well built. While fully-rugged-ToughBooks belong to a very different universe from ThinkPads in the first place nowadays, using the non-rugged ones made me realise that Panasonic's QC is most likely second to none.

To this day I haven't learned to type properly on them, though...

There's a huge difference between business-class Dell/HP and their consumer lines...I wouldn't take a lower-end Dell or HP for free, target practice notwithstanding...:hi2:

 

Haha, yeah, the business units from both HP and Dell are worlds apart from the consumer stuff. If you've ever held an elitebook or precision, you can feel the difference.