T60P still worthwhile?

I'm on the market for a new laptop and have been generally underwhelmed by the flimsy build quality and limbo-worthy glossy screens that seem in vogue now. A few years back I had a chance to check out a friends flexview T60 and remember being impressed by it's color reproduction and the laptops overall solid construction.

I wonder if any of you that have had a chance to spend some time with a T60p recently might weigh in with your opinions as to how it stacks up with today's low-mid cost offerings. I've been able to source a few refurbs around my narrow price point, $650.

My intended uses are web, hulu/netflix, and occasional light gaming (wow and maybe warhammer). If I moved forward with the T60 I planned to slap win7 on it, but I think I read somewhere that that might be problematic.

 

The T60 is the last IBM ThinkPads and is well regarded by ThinkPad enthusiasts. IBM went out on a high note. The T60 is a better machine than the T4x units it replaced in almost every way. It seems like today new machines are getting worse as manufacturers try to wring out every dollar to keep down the price. I guess we've go no one to blame but ourselves on that one. They're very solid machines, but as always luck plays a big role in whether things work out.

My R60, which would be akin to a T60p except for the GPU, is still an excellent machine for every day usage. A Core Duo or Core 2 Duo offers plenty of performance. I would point out the V52x0 cards in them are known to run hot, particularly the V5250. You might want to go with a X1400 based machine if you're doing older games. I don't know, I'm not much of a gamer. I mostly play older stuff like Psychonauts for example.

As for the FlexView screens, they're the best ever strapped to a notebook frame. Trust me on this one, it's hard to use anything else once you've used one as your main machine.

If you're looking for one, I might suggest looking in the marketplace forum on ThinkPads.com. You might pay a bit more, but they tend to be much more honest about what they're selling than say eBay or CL, which has a lot of value, especially on a used notebook. You might be able to find one still under warranty, which means you could extend it if you like through Lenovo.

 

Great post, thanks!

 

I've seen/used T60p with a Flexview exactly once in real life and I consider that experience like seeing an angel. If I were you, I wouldn't buy a laptop that old unless it had one of those divine screens. The T60's command a price premium for a reason.

The only problem with the T60 series was the heat from the graphics cards (in the grand scheme of things not a big problem). Of course the T61 fixed the cooling issues... with potentially defective Nvidia cards I think the T60p still managed to run cooler than most other contemporary notebooks with discrete cards.

Edit: Oh, just buy a new battery and you'd be good to go

 

I thought the T43 was the last machine produced by IBM...

 

I have a friend who owns a T61 that is still produced by IBM actually.

 

it is just a sticker that says it is IBM thinkpad, it just mean that the T61 was produced before 2008. Lenovo took over around mid-life cycle of T43, and the contract of sales allow Lenovo to use the IBM logo for certain number of years, so people wouldn't get confused by the sudden transition.

Also, all the T4x series thinkpad were produced under contract manufacturing.

 

My T61 says IBM as well ... but I also will be looking out for a T60P. Also had a query if any of the X60 or X61 series ever came with a flexview screen. Thanks

 

only the tablets.   none of the X6x notebooks came with IPS or AFFS displays from the factory.

 

We have a T60p here that is about to be replaced as per our 3 year replacement schedule. It's still a very nice machine - until the last month or two there was no compelling reason to replace it other than its age. T7600 processor, Ati Mobility Fire Gl V5250 graphics card, but no IPS screen. In fact, the screen is incredibly dim, and that's one thing I'd be concerned about with any older laptop with a CFL screen - they tend to dim over time. Those backlights can be replaced, but with considerable difficulty.

 

Hmm, that's something I hadn't considered. Thanks for pointing it out. Replacing a screen is not something I would feel comfortable undertaking at the moment. Might be best for me put my flexview purchase on hold until I can find a unit I can see, first hand.

Since my needs aren't very demanding (have a mbp for work), I might just look to squeeze in an x100e or edge under the guise of fun and portable, and use the left over cash for upgrades, (small ssd and max ram on an x100e maybe).

I have a nagging feeling that lenovo may decide against releasing a dual core x100e though, which would kinda make the unit less appealing.

 

When the change over was made, the T43 was being sold, which means the T60 had to be on the drawing board. Lenovo certainly didn't have time to make any substantive changes in the design, which is why the T60, R60, X60 and Z61 are the last of the IBM ThinkPads, my opinion of course.

 

I disagree.. I think the 61' series is the last made by IBM. If you look at the T61 it's basically an IBM laptop but branded with Lenovo on it. The T400 series is the series where Lenovo really took to it and changed it around. If playing safe though I would say the T60 series was the last..

 

fact: the designers who created the T20, T30, T40, and T60 series are the same designers who created the T400/500 series.   lenovo hired IBM's entire PC design department when the ThinkPad division was purchased in 2005.

 

I had a T60p with UXGA resolution Flexview from last August until a few weeks ago. The only reason I sold it was that I needed a smaller, cooler-running notebook with better battery life and a little more powerful GPU(I'm admitedly a bit of a PC gamer).

For what you're looking for doing with a notebook the T60p should be a fine system... just make sure to get a 15" version with SXGA+ or UXGA resolutions as those were the only models that came with Flexview(although 15" T60 non-p models had Flexview screens as well). In the T60p, the FireGL V5200/V5250 will also do decently at gaming, although newer titles won't play at native resolutions. The most modern title I played was Far Cry 2, and on low settings at SXGA+ resolution performed just fine. It should be more than plenty for video use.

Battery life isn't the best, but it isn't in DTR gaming laptop territory either. Expect about three hours on a 6-cell with typical use, or about 4.5 hours with a 9-cell.

The only major concern is heat... the T60p will run pretty hot. Expect about 65-70C idle, and up to 90-100C if you're working hard. It's very important to keep your fan clean as the cooling system isn't going to be very forgiving about being clogged with dust. Even with the temperatures being that high I've never heard of any heat-related failures with the T60/p.

 

T61 was not made by IBM, it was made by Lenovo. Lenovo took over the PC/laptop business in 2005, so everything was transferred to under Lenovo's management. While, IBM was retained for warranty service support duties in many countries and other support services. As i have said the IBM badge usage by Lenovo thinkpad was just to let people get familiarize with the Lenovo branding.

Also, as Erik have said, the designer for the laptops are the same, so similar design ideas would be generated.

 

I see no point in getting the old T60p. I am sure the machine is good, but it is old. Why go for older technology. Plus you are not getting it for that cheap at $650. Granted the Flexview screen is supposed to be a lot better than the current TN panels, I don't think it is worth it. I would look for a good deal on a T500 or W500 or wait a bit(or spend more now) and get a T510 or W510. The newer technology will last you a lot longer.

 

Very true, but I think you could argue Lenovo has put their stamp on ThinkPads for whatever it's worth. Designers don't work in a vacuum either. Management dictates cost, which the designers have to work around. Prices have taken a serious fall.

I was planning on getting a T60 notebook when they were released, but ended up with a R60 because of cost. A decent configuration was what a $1,500 machine when it was the T60 was released and IBM rarely couponed that I recall. If you know how to work the system these days you can get that system for half if not less these days.

For day to day usage the newer technology will offer little difference.

 

I just bought the T60p. I'm upgrading from a W500. I'm tired of the poor screen on the W500. I've been running Windows 7 on it without a hitch. I bought mine refurb on ebay for $580. I put my SSD drive in it restored my W7 backup from my W500 and let it boot up and detect everything and it was perfect. The T60p being a Core Duo 2ghz is not far behind the latest processors today when you consider most of the time they are getting clocked down anyway. I don't game on mine but heavy business use, some youtube, hulu etc. and it's flawless and does not seem one bit slower that my W500. I'm sure that's due to the SSD drive, it makes everything seem fast

 

So true. Only when you change the architecture are you likely to see significant performance increases. Penryns be they Santa Rosa or Montevina are just riffs on the original Core 2 Duo idea. Now the Core i is a change in the architecture, which is why it's an impressive performance bump, but still, if you're just doing Office and Internet, the Pentium M or IV is just as good as the Core i.

 

I am using the T60P right now, i bought it on december of 2006 and everything still well except the fan needs to replace. If i were you i would buy the T61P since the Chipset on the T60P dont support anything more the 3GB of rams even thought you have 64 bits OS. The T61P support up to 8GB of ram on 64bit system. Other than that, both computer are great. Forget about the IBM or Lenovo issue. The studio that i am working now have so many thinkpad. T4X, T6X. They are all good laptops never have any hardware problems and all fans starting to fail around 4-5 years.
So, T61P

Cheers

 

T61p is no go, they have the nvidia GPU, which are known to be faulty.... W500 or W510 is the way to go. T61 with Intel gpu is the only laptop you should consider in the T61 series.

 

Oh yes, forget about the T61 Nvidia Problems. Yes, i heard that is very bad.
But then only T60/T61 has the Flexview. I have never own a Flexview before but i heard it's super good. My new W510 has the HD+ which i have no problem with.
I really dont understand how come Lenovo dont give the option for better screen. many people are wiling to pay more for a good screen. The W510 built quality are the best of all(better than T4X, T6X).
Why dont you save more money to buy the W510.

 

only the T60p had the flexview, the T61p is just TN.

Don't know i haven't seen many flexview LCD in larger format laptop nowadays, maybe they are just not produced in enough quantities.

Considering that the IBM allowed a QXGA LCD on a 15 inch R50p, the world have not progressed much.....

Back in the old days, IBM companies have lot of R&D dollars for doing avantgarde stuff, now most laptop companies are living on shoestring budgets, so not much innovation in that regard. We just have to live with market reality....

 

Just my own opinion here, but Lenovo doesn't offer FlexView screens any longer because no one else does. They have on incentive to do so.

 

Agree, With the built quality of W510 and (IF)lenovo provide a Great screen. I bet the W510 will become a Worksation killer and macbook killer for sure.

Cheers

 

I'm glad I posted this thread you guys are a font of helpful information!

As far as "future-proofing" is concerned, I'm not overly convinced that newer is better. When I buy, I tend to buy quality items that last with proper maintenance. For example, the computer I'm looking to replace has served me without issue for the last 8 years.

If it can run netflix/hulu, open my email and check forums while pulling out say 30fps on the rare occasion I play WoW, than that's good enough for me. My macbook pro will do the heavy lifting.

PM sent

Since this thread was posted I've begun chatting with another forum member regarding the possible sale of his x61t with sxga+ screen, which I believe to be an IPS.

Rep for you guys!

 

That's probably right. Chicken and egg. Other manufacturers didnt buy them so the price per screen went up. Lenovo couldn't sell at the price they wanted with skyrocketed price/fewer availble screens. (it sounds like they are having a screen supply problems with the T410s and W510 touch screen, for example) They only continued Flexviews on the tablets because that was the only size that was still supporting in sufficent numbers/price.

Remember Lenovo's response why they were able to keep the T410 as 16x10? Enough OEMs ordered enough 14inch 16x10 LCDs to keep that size economically viable for the screen makers...

 

I have myself a T60p and it has been so far the most reliable piece of hardware I've owned. Based on my purchase I pushed other people to purchase T61s but they ended up with some reliability issues...

This being said I went to a store to check out the new T410 and IMHO it's the only one that matches the building quality of previous Thinkpads -T4xx and T60-.

 

you mean they bought the T61 with Nvidia GPU?

 

Yes I remember that one got fixed twice by Lenovo. The temperature of the GPU was reaching 105-110 °C and then the bios would shut the system down.

The other one I don't remember exactly but I think the computer decided one day that it wouldn't start. Fixed under warranty as well.

Another thing is the screen. Not only the T61 lost the 4:3 ratio but the 16:10 14.1" panel has really really bad viewing angles compared to a T60p 14"

 

You could get 14.1 inch T61 and T61p in 4:3 format, but it uses the TN LCD.

 

What are you basing the T61p statement on exactly? My company has literally thousands of T61p's with the NVIDIA Quadro FX 570m and that model has been nothing short of rock solid.

My work machine at the moment is a T61p and it's going on 3 years with zero problems. I personally know a lot of IT Pros with that machine that rely on them day in and day out.

 

How about personal experience with actual T61p, is that enough? Also, if you visit the forum.thinkpads.com and Lenovo.com forum you shouldn't miss the report of these GPU failures. Try googling sometimes.

Also, the T61p has the DIMM problem, not exactly confidence inspiring.

 

I see a lot of reports around NVIDIA GPU failures but very little that would lead me to believe the Quadro FX 570m and the T61p are included. I also don't see a recall from Lenovo or NVIDIA for those machines.

I also don't believe everything I read on the internet or forums like this. My experience with the T61p, and everyone I know that owns one, says it's the most reliable machine I've ever had. We have 20,000+ in our company and they have the lowest fail rates of every make an model in our standards for the past 5 years.

 

Lenovo may not have put through the recall, that doesn't mean the T61 or R61 don't have problem with their Nvidia GPU. Even Nvidia put out a statement regarding their faulty GPU, maybe we shouldn't trust Nvidia themselves either.

Also, i would trust the people whom makes the report at forum Lenovo.com and forum.thinkpads.com, since there is no reason they would report false problems.

And DIMM problems of the T61p is officially recognized by Lenovo themselves, or is Lenovo untrustworthy on that account too?

Also, I do monitor the Lenovo.com forum very closely, and the T61 with nvidia GPU suffers lot more GPU related problems than the T61 with integrated GPU.

 

My comments are related to the T61p and the Quadro FX 570m. If you are talking about a T61, we are talking apples and oranges.

 

when i say T61 i am including the regular T61 and the T61p.

 

The 570M is based directly on the GDDR3 8600M GT, if it was the 8600M GT with slower/cooler DDR2 VRAM, failure rates would be lower, but i'm glad it's the higher end GDDR3 version that was used since i can really game on it. Seriously though, it's basically a GeForce card with a different BIOS and drivers, that's IT.

 

I've sourced a T61P (nearly identical to the model in "thinkpadknowsbest's sig), locally and am making plans to check it out later this week. Of course it lacks the IPS display that made me consider a thinkpad to begin with, but I can't find one nearby. There's always ebay if this doesn't work out.

I've read quite a few comments about overheating gpu's for this model. Is there anything else that I should be on the lookout for unique to this unit?

 

which one did you get?   the 15.4" 16:10 model or 14.1" 4:3 model?

i had a 15.4" T61p for about 8 months and never had any overheating issues running CAD or design software.

 

There is also the dimm slot problem, where the laptop would crash or freeze when you play graphics intensive game when you use both of the ram slots.

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T61-and...problems-random-shut-down-BSOD-Crash/td-p/663

 

only on specific system planars.   not all systems were affected.

 

According to Mark_Lenovo the motherboard FRU 42W7653 is affected, and should be replaced by 44C3931

 

It's the 15".

Thanks for the tip. Ugh, this might be a difficult problem to troubleshoot when I inspect the unit at the sellers home.

I just stumbled across a t60p for sale about 1.5 hours away. It's listed with an sxga+, but I'm not sure if it's a 14 or 15". As far as I know only the 15" sxga+ uses an IPS panel. It's sold through a reseller so he's less then forthcoming with all the details

Here's the ad:
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/sys/1634101260.html

I hope to have a Thinkpad in hand by this weekend, hopefully sooner!

 

ask for the model number

 

I have. I'm waiting for the seller to get back to me with the remaining details. He said he thought it was a 14". I'm confident that he's realized that I'm after an IPS and he's dragging his heels. The T61p is looking better and better.

 

It doesn't have an IPS screen and never did unfortunately, but did have a nice fine WUXGA 1920x1200 screen, which i have, and it's the ultimate for a 15", tons of real-estate. Plenty of power still for me.

 

I'm following up on my earlier post. I've had my T60p for almost 2 months now and I'm using it everyday for my portable / laptop. My W500 is now permanently docked. The two upgrades I did on the T60p was to put in a 128gb SSD drive and upgrade the wifi to 802.11N. I'm running Windows 7 with a minimum of Lenovo software, basically just the Power Management Driver and Hotkey features.

I love the Flexview screen, literally runs circles around my W500 screen and has made a huge difference in just wanting to use a laptop. I don't game on it, just the basic office computer stuff but with the SSD and Windows 7 I haven't noticed that the machine is slow in any way. I wouldn't think anyone that used it could guess how old it really is. That's a lot to say about a 4 year old machine

 

Those of whom don't buy or follow the Thinkpad offerings, would usually think a new Thinkpad is more than 4 years old, even if you got the W510.

But nowadays the CPU technology is moving along faster than what consumer really need (unless you use CPU intense application or games), for word processing, internet surfing and movie watching, even T43 would be more than adequate.

Personally i love the T60 range of laptops, since they are so robust with the internal magnesium rollcage.