T61p - memory questions regarding 8gb upgrade!

Hi,

I am looking to upgrading my T61p's stock 4gb memory to 8gb to use for Photoshop and Inventor in windows 7 64 bit. I am running the latest 2.27 Bios.

I checked using Crucial's memory utility that my current RAM's timings are 5-5-5-15 which is the same as this Mushkin RAM, that I plan to buy: Newegg.com - Mushkin Enhanced Essentials 8GB (2 x 4GB) 200-Pin DDR2 SO-DIMM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Dual Channel Kit Laptop Memory Model 996685

So first question is - this should work without any issues right?

The crucial utility said there was no dual channel support! I was pretty surprised as I was under the impression all along that having 2 identical sticks of memory automatically activated the dual channel.

So second question is, since this mushkin says its got a 'dual channel kit' (in specs), would that mean I could get that extra speed advantage as well or is the dual channel support dependent on the bios settings/mainboard and independent of the RAM modules?

This Mushkin RAM seems to be the best DDR2 667 ram available on newegg (lowest voltage at 1.5v vs 1.8 or 2 of the others and 5-5-5-15 timing vs 6+ latencies), but also the cheapest!

So third question is, how would it compare in terms of heat produced to my stock RAM which is 2 years old??

And finally, any opinions on Mushkin ram?

Thanks!
Carthik

 

1-the Crucial utility probably misinterpreted your config, if you are that concerned about it reporting dual channel capability, i think a chipset driver update is in order, however it is possible your mobo memory controller on the mobo doesn't support dual channel mode, but i find this would be odd since most laptop mobo's should support it, especially the T61p, it is after all a mobile workstation.
2-It should work without any issues, however i have heard of some people upgrading to 8 but only 6 being recognized on the T61p, for most people that have done it it's worked fine though.
3-If it has a "dual channel" kit, it's sort of a misleading marketing gimmick, dual channel mode is when you have two DIMM's of exactly the same brand and quantity, this alone is dual channel mode, in the past (early 2000's) it used to yield enough performance increase to justify going to dual channel, however nowadays, it's perhaps, maybe a 5-10% increase in performance, even then it doesn't matter that much, just like RAM timings don't really matter that much in the whole scheme of things.
4-It should produce slightly more heat but RAM chips don't really produce enough heat to interfere with your heatsink, since the T61p's DIMM slots are located directly under the touchpad, it shouldn't ever be a true concern.
5-RAM is RAM, there really is not alot of quality variation between the brands, just make sure you get a lifetime warranty.

 

I have a T61p with Windows 7 on it and cs4 with 4 gigs of memory. It runs fine and easily fills the screen. You don't need 8 gigs unless you intend to do extensive photoshop work.
Renee

 

I don't beleive that kit will work (I haven't tested it myself). I have tested the following kit in my own T61 and it works fine:

Newegg.com - G.SKILL 8GB (2 x 4GB) 200-Pin DDR2 SO-DIMM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Laptop Memory Model F2-6400CL6D-8GBSQ

Keep in mind that the T61 and the i965 chipset was never qualified to run with 8GB SODIMMs. The differences between the Mushkin kit and the G.Skill kit I linked are that the modules in the G.SKill kit are arranged in 256Mx8 per side (16 modules total on the SODIMM). The Mushkin kit looks like it's arranged 512Mx4.

In plain English, when I reviewed the 965's specs, I noticed that the chipset had been qualified to work with 256M memory modules, and would support up to 16 devices (chips) on a single SODIMM. So I took a chance and bought the G.Skill kit and sure enough, it works at the ful 8GB size.

The Mushkin kit is a shot in the dark though. I don't believe that the 965 chipset will support that memory density (512Mx4). One of three things may happen with that memory:

1) It works fine (best case scenario).
2) It only sees a portion of the memory (which may explain why some people only see 6GB of RAM instead of the full 8GB).
3) The machine doesn't even P.O.S.T.

If you want a safe bet, wait until the G.Skill kit becomes available. You have a 99.99999% chance of it working fine with that kit. I personally couldn't say for certain if the Mushkin kit would work though since I never tried it, but my hunch is that it won't work right because of the memory density of the chips.

If you don't want to wait for the G.SKill kit to become available again, this Corsair kit looks like it uses 256Mx8 chips and should work fine:

Newegg.com - CORSAIR 8GB (2 x 4GB) 200-Pin DDR2 SO-DIMM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Laptop Memory Model VS8GSDSKIT800D2

 

the OP said that he needs it for photoshop and inventor.   it's obvious that he understands why he needs it.   there's no point in trying to talk someone out of spending their own money for their own needs.

it was designed by Intel and built into the chipset specs by Intel.   keep in mind that these systems wouldn't accept 8GB if Intel didn't intend it to happen.

 

Thanks for the responses guys...

@thinkpadknowsbest
I have confirmed that I am running dual channel.
that heat won't be an issue is a relief!
recognizing only 6 of the 8gb seems really strange though! any explanations?
and yes, this does have a lifetime warranty.

@renee - thanks for your input renee, but my system does struggle with some high res stuff i throw at it - i don't like it when there's lag as the stuff is being dumped on to the hdd. and since photoshop is supposed to respond very well to more RAM, i think it will be a useful investment...

@digidoc - the reviews for the mushkin say it worked fine on a T61, xps1530 and latitude d630. so it should work fine right? or do u think there might be another reason for it not to??
Also, if i've been having second thoughts about investing on this machine due to the quadro fx570 failures - since this ram would be useless if i buy a new machine! theres no way the 200 pin ddr2s are backward compatible with the 204 pin ddr3s is there? so i don't want to blow 280$ with the hope of making my system future proof when theres a possibility that my graphics chip might be defective!

@erik - its alright, we are all trying to help each other out right? i really appreciate you highlighting what i said though. and also, thanks for the input on the the i965 chipset - so according to you, it should run the 512mb x4 config without any hassles??

 

Erik, let's get some terms straight here before you continue:

Designed: Means that a particular device was intended to work a certain way from the start.

Qualified: Means that a particular device HAS BEEN TESTED BY WHATEVER ENTITY and confirmed to work a certain way under certain criteria.

Now, if you'll be ever so kind as to point your web browser here:

Mobile Intel® PM965 Express Chipset

here:

http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/specupdate/316274.pdf

here:

http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=29822

and finally, here:

Lenovo Support & downloads - Detailed specifications - ThinkPad T61, T61p

...and actually take the time to read all of it (particularly Page 18 of the PDF file), you'll notice a few things. One: Intel (and Lenovo) specifically and officially state the PM965 (and the T61) only supports up to 4GB of RAM. The second thing you'll notice is that the last time Intel updated the official documentation on the 965 was back in March of 2008.

Of course we all know by now that the 965 (and the T61 specifically) does support up to 8GB of memory, but why is it that Intel and Lenovo officially state that the 965/T61 only supports up to 4GB of RAM? The answer is:

Back when Intel designed and built the 965 chipset, they may have designed it with the capability of supporting 8GB of RAM, but 4GB SODIMMS weren't generally available for testing, so they couldn't do QUALIFICATION testing. It very well could have run (and as we know now, it does) with 4GB SODIMM's, but because Intel themselves couldn't do qualification testing, they could not officially say that it would. Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment: say for example that Intel did say that back then. If it turned out that the chipset wouldn't work correctly with the higher capacity memory after they just said it would work, there would be hell to pay not only to the end users, but to their business partners. Call Paul Otellini a little gun shy after the whole MTH820 fiasco.

In the end they left it up to individual partners and vendors that used the 965 chipset to do qualification testing with the higher capacity SODIMMS. The problem is, by the time 4GB SODIMMS came to market and at a price point where average humans could afford them, newer DDR3 based systems were being made, so the vendors didn't go back and qualify the "older" systems. They'd rather spend the time and money to qualify newer systems that they can then sell to you with an "officially supports 8GB of RAM" sticker and make money selling you a new system than to do testing on an older system where they're not going to make any additional profit from (since, let's face it, nobody in their right mind is going to pay whatever Lenovo would want to charge for their official memory).

And therein lies the rub Erik. While Intel's engineers may have blessed the 965 with the capability of using 8GB of RAM, neither Intel nor Lenovo have or will spend the time and money to officially qualify the systems to run with 8GB of RAM. I believe that some vendors (Dell) have, but they're the exception and not the rule. With that said, although we know that 8GB of RAM will work, if you go out and buy 4GB SODIMMS and they don't work in your system and you call Intel (at (408) 765-8080) or Lenovo (at 1-800-565-3344) for help, you're effectively up a creek without a paddle. They'll tell you to go pound sand since they only qualified their parts and system to work with a max of 4GB of ram.

As for the OP, I can only repeat what I've said already. I personally can say that the chips I mentioned in my first reply have a 99.99999999% chance of working fine since I'm using them in my system without any problems. Unless someone else has already tested the higher density 4GB SODIMM modules (the 512Mx4's), I can only say that you're taking a chance that it won't work. Unless all of you want to pony up some cash so I can buy the higher density SODIMMs and do some tests myself, I'm not putting my neck out twice for people.

I did that already with the RAM I have in this system. I took an edumacated guess from looking at Intel's qualification testing to see what density chips would have the best shot of working and my guess turned out to work. My instincts are telling me that the 512Mx4 based SODIMMS won't work right, but I *could* be wrong though.

 

DigiDoc - please watch your attitude.   you haven't told me anything that i haven't known since a T61p landed on my desk three years ago.

the 8GB qualifications were never updated in public documents because Intel wanted to push the newer chipsets and manufacturers wanted to push newer systems.   that's it.

phone support would say this about any memory module not purchased through Lenovo regardless of capacity.   aftermarket memory (or any aftermarket part for that matter) is not supported under Lenovo warranty.   the manufacturers of those parts are responsible for support and warranty.

memory manufacturers such as Micron, Samsung, Hynix, and Elpida have all qualified 4GB modules to work in PM965/GM965 systems.   since systems with 965 chipsets were outdated by the time these modules were mass-produced, it was up to the memory manufacturers to handle qualifications.

this is, at best, old news.

 

For what it's worth, I have been running 8GB of RAM without issue for over a year. I'm using G.Skill 4GB RAM modules.

 

thanks to everyone, especially DigiDoc, for enlightening me on my T61p's max ram capability although due to the nvidia bomb I'll stick with 4GB....

 

Would you be kind and tell us what voltage and freq? I'm thinking about 8G of RAM by myself...

Thanks.

 

Per Newegg.com:

G.SKILL 8GB (2 x 4GB) 200-Pin DDR2 SO-DIMM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Laptop Memory Model F2-5300CL5D-8GBSQ
Cas Latency: 5
Timing: 5-5-5-15
Voltage: 1.8V
ECC: No
Model #: F2-5300CL5D-8GBSQ
Item #: N82E16820231210

The RAM makes things effortless. I don't game, but I do use virtual machines for development work and having the extra RAM is well worth it.

 

Thanks, you're reading my mind! Are you using VirtualBox ? How does you CPU handle the load? Mine it's pretty loaded... I;m using Linux though, perhaps on Win it's a better situation...

 

I'm using VMware workstation. The CPU seems to cope well enough. It's nice to be able to allocate a couple of gigs to a vm.

 

I'm also using VMware with a T9300 and WUXGA and run 3 vms. I never even touch my desktop. It handles very well. CPU is never the bottleneck for me.

 

About Mushkin: I wrote them twice about compatible 8GB kit for t61p---no response.