ThinkPad X1, X230, X230t, T430, T430s, T530, W530, L430, L530 Official

It breaks my heart - except for the screen, the X230 is basically perfect.

 

I must agree... if it *does* support 2x 8GB chips for 16GB RAM and *does* come with a quad core CPU then... if they put a 1600x900 screen in there I would be throwing big wads of cash at them.

Sadly while I think the CPU and the RAM will be ok - I think they are going to scrimp on the screen. Its stupid, I don't think it is unfair to say that if they sorted the screen out they would have 50% additional sales. Crazy.

Due to the screen I'm torn between the X230T and the new Ivy Bridge Sony Z23. The Sony is 13" with 1920x1080p, has quad core, supports 16GB and although it comes with a POS external GPU, it seems that the Z community have some sort of a deal with ViDock to make a eGPU that supports the light peak port on it...

So *if* that is true, it is basically Lenovo 1366x"f'all" Touchscreen VS Sony 1920x1080. Sadly that Sony screen is arguably the best screen on the market today. I've got the Z11 from 2010 and it is easily the best laptop I have ever owned... unless Lenovo sort the screen I could see myself buying another Sony.

Not sure...

Another critical thing for the Lenovo is the throttling which they seem to make standard on their models recently. I think it is very important that any reviews look for this in detail as I'm a tech user and I've already sent back a W520 for that exact reason.

Don't fancy wasting my time again on ordering an X230T only to do some basic testing, watch it throttle and then send it back again.

EDIT - Apparently they have fixed the W520 throttling when plugged in now, but it still throttles on battery power because the battery doesn't have enough power to support the CPU and discrete graphics on load.... oh well, that's much better. Note sarcasm.

 

can't you just turn off throttling?

 

hopefully yes. But if they do something dumb again like supply a battery or PSU that doesn't have enough to support the CPU/GPU on load then no, its just a limitation.

 

moogleassassin, if you are happy with Sony, why lose your time with Lenovo?

 

Except that it does have perfectly enough power to support CPU, and discrete graphics, and a couple of external HDDs in USB, all that in full power when on battery. It apparently wasn't the case with older and more power hungry models, but 9 cells is perfectly enough to feed all X/T/W/x20 series.

Not for long, of course, and customers generally value battery life and mobility a lot more than performance (hence the whole netbook/tablets popularity). People who don't like this throttling, can easily switch it off.

Can't see why it would be different in the new series, as they are even more power efficient. Same about 16GB. It's unlikely Lenovo would deliberately cripple their machines, especially as even the current generation does support 8GB sticks. They however may choose not to bother verifying compatibility of their dual core setups with 8GB, as they do for quad cores, yet it would work all the same.

 

My W520 was manufactured in Feb 2012, I had the 9 cell battery and I respectfully disagree. There are many threads on this and I did enough testing/research at the time to feel confident about it. It was probably a mistake to bring it up here as I don't want to derail the thread.

heh - yeah it did come out as a bit of a rant I guess I was on the train to London and I was hot and frustrated. I think what I was trying to say is that although the Sony Z11 is the best PC I have ever owned, it isn't without its flaws either (heat/noise/no_drivers_updates/etc) and I think that the X230T *could* be a better fit for me at this time due to tablet/touch, I just really hope they don't put out an underpowered spec that removes it as a possible option for me.

 

Tbh. the whole "issue" of throttling is inflated beyond reason. Yes, Lenovo's default throttling policy is hard or impossible to override by using only BIOS and PowerManager. This could be intentional for battery life advertisements or whatever other reasons they may have, since they're not fixing it, and it may show up in the new series as well. But there are other tools that change this just fine.

My W520 with Q2000 was manufactured in spring 2011, and does exhibit the same throttling on battery by default, which is fine most of the time. ThrottleStop fixes this issue when I need full power on battery, and it performs exactly the same as with AC power.

Are there W520 machines where ThrottleStop does not work?

 

I understand and respect that every brand has it's loyal apologists, but because the big 3 keep making the same mistakes, poor design choices and lack of true innovation is what causes them to continue to lose further market share to Apple.It just reinforces my point.

At least Asus gets it. They're even offering a 1920x1080 IPS screen on their 11" UX21A !

As rumored, the lineup includes Core i5 and i7 Ivy Bridge processors, with 1920 x 1080 IPS displays offered even on the 11-incher. (If you don't need that kind of pixel density, 1366 x 768 displays will be available as well.)

 

Ok, it's all clear now - I simply didn't understand why rant about a Thinkpad when it looks that you found/are already happy with Sony - and you're clearly not even addicted to the Thinkpad design/brand. After all, life is beautiful.

 

The coming ASUS machines do look cool and it appears they fixed the keyboard and touchpad issues. They did put a stupid mini VGA port on the machine though. Should be mini DP.

 

I think options are nice, and it would be cool if Lenovo offered higher resolution screens on the x230. That being said, in my opinion, I think most people (those who don't regularly comment on tech forums) could care less especially on 13" screens and below.

You may point to Apple and the retina screen craze. However, tablets are a bit different, and frankly, Apple can market a can of dung and people would wait in line for it lately.

Separately, I separated with my last Mac, which makes me Mac free for the first time in I don't know how long. My x220 has really hastened my exodus from OS X. Unfortunately, I'm still a lurker on Mac threads...work is kind of boring of late.

I don't take rants all that seriously. It's part of life on the Internet now. Everyone has ranted at some point on an Internet thread (myself included).

 

There's a more thorough write-up on Asus latest Ivy Bridge UX21A here

Apparently it has both a mini VGA and micro HDMI port. You can either use an inexpensive VGA to DP cable or a micro HDMI to DP adapter.

As ever, this kind of skinniness comes at a cost: the UX21A only makes room for a handful of ports, including two USB 3.0 sockets, a headphone jack, mini-VGA and micro-HDMI.

 

Agreed. Sony may be losing money hand over fist, but at least Asus has been able to tack on IPS and high resolution displays from 11" and up!

New Zenbooks: ASUS bringing Zenbook Prime UX21A, UX31A, UX32A and UX32VD to the US, prices start at $799 -- Engadget

Can't Lenovo do the same with the X and T series?

 

No you can't. The HDMI consortium prohibits HDMI -> DisplayPort (DP) adapters and they are actively suing makers.

Let me know when you've actually tested a mini VGA -> DP connector. That isn't possible either. And you certainly aren't going to get to 2560x1440 or higher across the connection.

Your link points to DisplayPort -> VGA cables. Mini VGA -> DP isn't the same thing as DP to VGA.

 

I hardly think that they are going to make one external gpu for that model at all. The optics controller makes things quite impossible for that, aside only Sony have it, its not like intel that has development kits available for people, quite the contrary.

throttling under battery is not just common, its implemented by intel as well. Throttling when your plugged in, is another matter, and the only model that they didnt fix it, was the i7 x220

 

Micro HDMI to HDMI adapter


+

HDMI Male to DP Male 6ft cable


But we're really off topic now and mostly my fault. Just wanted to underscore that Asus had implemented HD 1920 x 1080 screens even in their 11" ultraportables in contrast to Lenovo's flagship X230 ultraportable stagnating with a 4 year old 1366 resolution.

 

You keep making points in the wrong direction. Signals aren't always two way. So the DP to HDMI cable isn't the same as a HDMI to DP cable. In fact, go look for a way to get from mini HDMI to DP and drive a 2560x1440 LCD panel. Let me know when you have a working solution.

As for the other adapter converting from one HDMI form factor to another, those are everywhere and cheap. But mini or micro HDMI isn't the same thing as mini DP.

And to your point about the screen on the notebook itself, yea, that's freaking impressive. If the Samsung 15" comes with the PLS screen, it's going to be a great buying season with all the choices from Samsung and ASUS.

I guess I need to start looking into the warranty and support channel for ASUS. The hardware looks solid.

 

The UX32VD looks very nice... Discrete graphics, all under three pounds... IPS screen... $1,500 seems fair.

 

Yea, I definitely want to see one of those up close when they come out. It would be great to see it side-by-side with the Carbon, Samsung Series 9, etc.

 

Well, it ticks off all of the right checkboxes for me. Plus, you can stuff a 7mm 2.5-inch HDD and an mSATA drive into there, so I am completely sold over the UX32VD at this point.

I am considering a UX32VD over a T430s.

EDIT: Looks like the UX32VD is just $1,300, according to Anandtech:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5843/asus-zenbook-prime-ux21a-review

 

a thinkpad 430 costs about $850, and a decent IPS 24" monitor about $250. Combined together, a rock solid notebook with the excellent monitor that can be reused. Easy choice for me.

 

Next Hands-On of the X230: Lenovo ThinkPad X230 Hands-On: Does the New Keyboard Cut It?

 

That is true, but obviously you lose the portability factor. High res screen and IPS would allow you have both portability and *usable/highly viewable* screen real estate. (especially for the X series)

 

Next Hands-On X230 : Quick look at the Lenovo ThinkPad X230 (hands-on) | ZDNet

 

This may be my next purchase... I will hold off until reviews of the X1 surface, but this unit is priced and configured right for my money... I hope Lenovo really wows me with the X1, and I'm an admitted fan boy so it's not that hard...

 

Did I read correctly: Lenovo says it will offer a 1600x900 display on the x230???

Also the tech spec of the t430 on lenovo.com does not mention any quad cores... I thought the 35w quad cores would be available in the t430 and possibly x230 as well?

 

Yes you did. I read the same. I hope this is re-confirmed by Lenovo! This might be the push for me to get a X230 over Asus and the like.

 

That is not an issue for me. Currently I have a lowly Edge 420 with only 766p but connected to a 24" 1080p monitor at home. When I travel I don't find the resolution to be a problem. But I do feel the weight is a problem.

 

That would be excellent; they reported the opposite at laptopreviews in the comments.

"The first thing you think of when you think ThinkPad is the keyboard as Lenovo excels at getting those right. The X230 is no exception as the chiclet style keyboard has great spacing to go along with a good key layout. This is the best keyboard I have used to date on an ultraportable notebook."

Reassuring to say the least!

 

you guys know a preview/hands-on about the new W530 with the new keyboard pictures ?

Tkz,

BR

 

At least one Z2 user, Mikjoa, gave up waiting for someone to come up with a Sony Lightpeak eGPU and resorted to cutting the base enclosure to access the mPCIe wifi slot instead. See http://forum.notebookreview.com/sony/619904-vpc-z2x-convenient-egpu-setup.html . The Lenovo X230 has an expresscard slot and it's bios as been updated for external devices so it's be a simpler plug-and-play implementation.

With the addition of pci-e 3.0 lanes on the northbridge side of the Series-7 chipset, Lenovo could double the expresscard slot's bandwidth from x1 2.0 to x1 3.0 by routing the northbridge port rather than southbridge ports to it. Latest Keplar cards are pci-e 3.0 compliant as is the PE4L 2.1b hardware.

Is there any way to start a dialog with the Lenovo hardware development team to get such a suggestion + more here through? Such a move would place Lenovo at pole position for eGPU implementations. I'm getting the impression from the Ivy Bridge refresh that someone is dripfeeding NBR user desirable features to the Lenovo product development team.

 

+1 for this keyboard:
"Fortunately, the keyboard still has a great tactile feel with the kind of industry-leading force-feedback we’ve come to expect from Lenovo."

 

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Maybe so. But the last paragraph raises a valid point about the palmrest:

 

the best and cleanest solution would have to enter the thunderbolt market head and heels. that way we could have some more interesting solutions, like docks and egpus, some design/arts stuff are coming with thunderbolt, and that is a good solution for them, not to mention that for me the idea is to have a notebook that is only: cpu, battery, screen, keyboard and touchpad, something simple and light as possible, with the smallest form factor available, inside the different sizes, and sincerely I think that intel is agreeing with me on this one

For example its stupid to launch a dock with a measly USB3 powering the whole thing, with 2 displays out and several usb3 in there, its going to be bandwidth starved, instead just go for thunderbolt..

 

Yeah, except I've had the X220 for about a year now and almost never use the palmrest anymore. My typing and overall comfort level has improved as a result.

 

What do you use?

 

Nothing. I keep my hands slightly raised over the keyboard while typing. Sort of like playing the piano if you've ever done that.

 

Which is actually the correct position when typing.

Palmrest is for rest when not typing. Pretty much any ergonomic guide, discussing carpal tunnel and its prevention, describes that too. E.g. HealthyComputing - Keyboard Setup and Usage or http://www.doereport.com/generateexhibit.php?ID=10390 or even IBM's own http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/healthycomputing/we-key.html :

* Your wrists should be extended straight, not bent up or down uncomfortably.
* If you use a wrist/palm rest, it should NOT be used while actually keying but in between periods of keying.
* Your hands should glide over the keys. Hands remaining in a fixed position cause fingers to over-reach for the keys. Use a light touch
for keying, keeping your hands and fingers relaxed.

 

Right, of course, that's what I was told. It would actually be nice if I could do the same at my desktop keyboard, but no joy. I keep meaning to replace it with this but you know how it is

 

I know. Replaced my old and trusted Microsoft Natural keyboard with this (to have TrackPoint and not switch between key layouts in desktop/mobile modes), and have regrets only occasionally

The last benefit will cease to exist with the new Thinkpads, unless Lenovo introduces an external USB keyboard with the 6 row layout too.

 

Thunderbolt is an inherently expensive, thus niche connector. The only chance it has at not becoming the next FireWire imho is if it sees widespread use as the connector of choice for ultrabook docking stations (possible, though USB3 seems like its got a head start), and consumers buying said ultrabooks are interested in docking stations (unlikely unless consumers suddenly decide to stop ignoring docking stations for whatever reason).

As for the dock itself. The only part of the dock I might worry about being bandwidth starved would be the display outputs. What is typically plugged into a docking station? Stuff that is left plugged in and on the desk when the laptop is used on a lap. Screen, mouse, keyboard. USB3 provides sufficient bandwidth for those needs imho. I don't see why the USB3 dock was stupid at all from Lenovo. From a tech geek standpoint, Thunderbolt would have been cool, but there isn't really a need for it.

 

Exactly. I don't use a palmrest with my Das Keyboard, nor do I ever use it on any laptop. There's only gains to not using the palmrest: no icky dirt that collects on the palmrest over time, no ergonomic issues (that can lead to carpel tunnel), and it's comfortable typing on laptops with short palmrests like the X120e and the X220. It's a good habit to pick up

 

Not to mention added storage that usually gets connected as well. There are 2 display outputs there, if you use those, its going to starve. there is a very palpable difference between the theoretical speed of something and the actual.

Another thing when you buy a dock for your company, you buy it with the idea of using it for more than 1 cycle. A cycle on the larger enterprises that I worked before were 3 years for a total change of the pcs that they have.

I dont see thunderbolt being a niche in the next future, or do you see laptops getting larger and thicker? I dont see that, specially considering that the ulv chips can deliver good enough performance for most people.

Variable TDP cpus + docking stations = death of desktops for most people

Haswell will probably deliver us some interesting designs.

 

I just think it's funny because everybody pooped themselves when they doubled the size of the ESC and DEL keys. And Lenovo insisted it was because those were heavily used keys and it reduced errors yadda yadda. And now they're back to normal haha. The keyboard will be difficult to get used to, but if it's done in lenovo style, then hopefully it will be head and shoulders above the other chiclet keyboards out there. And me being the biggest hater-ade drinker when it comes to chiclets, I guess you gotta just go with the flow. The only thing I'll truly miss are the navigate forward/backwards keys that have been replaced by the pg up pg down keys. I really use those a lot! Also I wonder where the FPR's will be on this body style's palmrest. Off under the D-pad, or right by the trackpad.

 

Thats not true, these two keys are still double-sized, but this time instead of verticaly horizontaly. You can see that here on the X1 keyboard:

 

I wouldn't be so sure that 2 display outputs will starve bandwidth. A single USB2.0 is enough for a 1080p display. Unless the displays are really high resolution, I don't think bandwidth starvation will be a problem.

External storage might be a problem though.

As for how long the dock will be useful for, I don't see a difference between USB3 and Thunderbolt.

I think that Thunderbolt will be niche since it is more expensive than USB and it's advantages over USB3 aren't needed by most people. It might become the main way to dock ultrabooks or even normal laptops, but docks themselves are somewhat niche. Even if docks do become popular, what advantages does Thunderbolt provide over USB3 when all that is being hooked up to the dock is a mouse keyboard and screen? Would a regular consumer use that advantage and would that consumer find the advantage important enough to spend a lot more on a Thunderbolt dock compared to a USB3 one?

 

USB2 video adapters do major sacrifices in either resolution or refresh rate or both, compared to HDMI / DisplayPort. OK for office work though.

Just a single display 1920x1080 * 3 bytes/pixel * 60Hz without compression and overhead needs 3Gbps channel, far exceeding capabilities of USB2, but still within theoretical limit of USB3.

Thunderbolt with its current 10 Gbps is better, but still will have difficulties driving 4K+ retina displays of (hopefully) tomorrow without compression.

So for today, DisplayPort 1.2 (17Gbps+) + USB3 is as future-proofed as it gets IMO. Great compatibility with legacy stuff too.

 

If you are only using a dock for 2 cables, I wouldnt buy a dock. Simple as that.

I dont know, I wouldnt buy a product that I can use only parts of it, do you buy overheating notebooks? I dont.

Do you buy a car that if you have AC on, you can only go up to 60km/h? I dont.

If Im buying something I want it to work as it should.

Its simple:

2 DVI outputs
5 USB 3, if you are doing more than 1 transfer it will bottleneck here already
1 ethernet gigabit

I found out how they are going to use that dual dvi link, via DisplayLink DL-3900 Dual Head Graphics

Is thunderbolt expensive? no it isnt. The new chips are cheap, quite cheap.

Does everybody needs it? No they dont.

Is the idea of intel to have ultrabooks dominating the industry a great idea? For me yes, take it, you have good battery life, dock it, desktop performance.

Building something that it will have limited functionality, I dont think that constitutes as a good idea.

Just imagine that you are downloading something and transferring another thing to a thumb drive in the dock, you are out of bandwidth, and if you are driving the 2 monitors, it will be out of bandwidth. And sincerely that is not an uncommon uber taxing scenario, its a down to earth scenario.