ThinkPad build quality...

If any of you have used ASUS laptops & newer ThinkPads before, could you please compare the build quality of the two?

I'm specifically looking at:

Thinkpad T60
Thinkpad X60
Lenovo 3000 V100
Toshiba Satellite U205
ASUS Z35F

Honestly, I will probably be selling this laptop in 7-12 months, whenever laptops built around Intel's Santa Rosa platform start flooding the gates....then I'll upgrade once again. Soooo, I'm really looking for durability & resale value...which would lead me to a Thinkpad, right??

 

The Thinkpads are by far the best built, the asus come almost on-par or even on par.

The x series is a bit more solid than the Tseries, just by a bit

 

These are all completely different computers. I think you need to ask yourself what you want from a laptop.

 

I want a sub-5 pounder...and most importantly, I want a durably built laptop that I'll be able to sell again in a few months while making back as much money as possible so I can get the next generation of laptops built on intel's santa rosa platform....THEN i'll be maxing out ram slots, adding transflective screens, 18 cell batteries, etc.

I need this laptop to get me through one more semester of a couple programming classes. Then I'll prolly be tossin' it on ebay.

 

Or if that isn't wise (and it prolly isn't)...I'll end up keeping the X60 or U205, and wait until we have Ultra Wide Band, integrated blu-ray/hd-dvd burner, etc...

whatever, i just want to find out if Lenovo quality has gone downhill? If the consumer grade Lenovo's (V100) are any good? Same build quality? Should I just get a Thinkpad? What's that area like, at least? Honestly....as long as it has a full-size keyboard, I'm not too picky on whether it's glossy/matte, or widescreen/stnd-aspect...

 

Do you have any reasons for saying that the X-series is a bit more solid?? Other than the fact that there's no optical drive to stop working & take up space?

I'm not sure how I'll like the X60s "nipple" at first...but I'm sure I'd get used to it. Anyway, durability, battery life, & resale value are prolly the two most important factors.

 

Oh yea...Linux compatibility would be on there if I decided to keep this for the long-term. Otherwise, I wouldn't give a dang

 

I have no complaints about my t60--it seems just as solid as my friends t43p. The Lenovo consumer line is of decent build, but not near thinkpad ruggedness. Obviously the x60 has a much nicer battery life 7 hrs on 8 cell vs. 2.5-3.5 on 6 cell 14.1 t60. Thinkpads will have a good resale value, they are corprate machines--meant to be purchased in frequently and last for a long time. Asus' are well built also, more of a consumer notebook and offer more to gamers.


I absolutely LOVE the trackpoint-or "nipple" as you call it. I never use the trackpad anymore.
Thinkpads have the advantage of being linux friendly, as well if you are into programming.

 

Do you need a notebook now? Why not just wait for Santa Rosa and save some money?

 

I don't know that Santa Rosa is going to give you all that much that it would make it worth it to upgrade especially if you are doing internet and office. If you need a laptop then get it. When Santa Rosa comes the next big thing is right around the corner. It's a vicious cycle.

 

Yea Santa Rosa will be a bit faster and better boot time. But I think I actually turned off my other laptop 3 or 4 times (mostly when it froze. Stupid Dell.) at the most. So yes it will be better but Duo Core processing for me is the biggest step since the invention of pentium. So its a good time to buy.

 

For anything they do in university, a pentium M will do more than you need.
Buy a good used thinkpad cheap, then resell it.
That will maximize your loss.
Otherwise, expect to lose about half your money when you resell today's leading-edge computer on ebay used after half a year.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

I couldn't agree more. Depreciation and technology, hand-in-hand.

 

You are correct that it's a vicious cycle. But I do try to upgrade at the best of times to avoid upgrading. Fact is -- 98% of laptops now are not ready for Vista Premium (w/ full-on Aero effects). If I'm gonna pay more than a grand for a friggin' laptop...it better keep me happy for a few years instead of just one. Ya dig?

 

Sometimes I turned my laptop off 3 or 4 times a day. I use a laptop for portability; the only time it's plugged in is when I'm sleeping.

And sure having 2 cores is sweet and all...but I think that an 800MHz FSB, integrated Intel Graphics w/DX10 (AKA: full Aero support under Vista with barely any battery drain), Robson flash memory caching, & a WiMax chip are all TOO difficult for me to ignore.

 

Heh...don't you mean minimize my loss??

Anyway, somebody just mentioned this to me at ubuntuforums.org and I agree...this is prolly what I'll do if I'm seriously going to wait for Santa Rosa.

But prices are too good now....

AAHHHHHHHHH...why can't someone make decisions for me.

 

I disagree with that from what I've read and heard, though I can't speak first hand since I haven't seen an X60 in person yet, only my T60

However when I was researching them I talked to a couple of my buddies who work for IBM support they told me they received about twice as many support calls for things that had broken or been destroyed in terms of hardware/components on the X-series than the T-series. They said they just weren't built as tough.

Also on the Thinkpad site it says the T-series has the ThinkPad Roll Cage (on certain models), and the X-series does not have it available in any way.

"ThinkPad® Roll Cage
The ThinkPad® Roll Cage protects critical system components in case of accidents or jolts. The magnesium alloy frame that surrounds ThinkPad parts absorbs shock on drop – reducing failures and improving durability and reliability."

Then also the shock mounted hard drive isn't available on the X-series tablet, but on the non-tablet it is.

In general I've always thought the X-series sacrificed a bit in the way of durability, performance, and features in the name of being smaller/lighter/more portable. Not that one is overall better than the other - just depends on your objectives.

 

I had Vista Ultimate RC1 running on my R60 while I waited for my 7200RPM drive to arrive. Granted, I didn't have Aero on with the Intel card, but it ran fine. You may wish to look at this way, if you were buying a notebook when the Pentium Ms first came out, do you think it would make a huge difference if you got say 1.2GHz PIII or a 1.4GHz Pentium M? Intel is already working on Santa Rosa's successor.

Link

 

Now THAT is reasoning...i will prolly be bumping the X60 off of the list because of this (and it is too expensive for what i really want in a screen, which is definitely in the top 3 factors of my choice).

Goodbye super-duper extra long battery life!

 

Ok ok here goes... instead of buying the laptop, buy gold stocks on dips. That way you'll have enough later to buy a better laptop 2 or 3 times over.

 

Yea...considering Vista's gonna be here in 2 months, and Santa Rosa will be following by a few more months...I really feel like waiting is my best option in order to not feel like I'm getting ripped off.

I got the very first Pentium M that came out - a 900MHz ULV Pentium M, in fact. I prolly could have squeezed another year or two out of it actually...but I ruined that. And no, I don't think that Core Duos are that much better for laptops than Pentium Ms...but I do believe Santa Rosa is the next big thing in hardware that I'll try my hardest to wait for.

Exactly my point...Santa Rosa is friggin' RIGHT here almost; I can almost see her now. And the chick behind her doesn't look like she'll be offering THAT much better services.

Anybody gotta used laptop they wanna sell me for the EXTRA cheapness?

 

With all due respect to your buddies on the support line, as a longtime engineering veteran and at present a manager at IBM, I disagree with their generalized perception.

It may indeed be the case that, for some reason, at their location they have more service requests for one model over another. But, in general, the quality is fairly close in terms of repair statistics. The bugaboo of the X-series has been complaints about heat (some new users don't understand that small devices will be warmer).

But, in my fairly extensive experience with a range of models, my *subjective* observation is that the X60 has a better build quality that the T60 (or any other lenovo laptop). The X-series is also perceptibly tighter and less creaky than the T-series. While the X-series doesn't have a rollcage, it doesn't need it because it's half as bulky.

I neither own an X-series or T-series; all my laptops are provided free by IBM to me, at least one new one per year; so I do not have any purchaser's bias as to which is built "better". And I do believe the X is better built. That said, I think I will choose a T-series next time, because I'd prefer a larger screen again and the build quality of both are plenty good enough for it to not factor in my decision of which to choose.

 

I would imagine X's would be in for service more because they are used on the run so much more, which is very hard on any device with spinning disks and connectors that can come loose etc

 

Santa Rosa is the next big thing, but in three years it will still be old.

 

Thank you, Zaz. This is exactly my point...I don't think I could live with Merom on Napa for 4 years when Santa Rosa is ALMOST here. But if I can wait, then I might actually be able to make it for FIVE whole years without upgrading. It's completely a possibility since a laptop isn't my primary means of computing.

The flash caching is great...the faster FSB would actually put the dual cores to use...the lesser power requirements are always welcome by someone who wants a portable device.

I don't see the point in buying a laptop right now. As of right now, I'm most likely looking to see if somebody I know has a spare laptop (who the heck has spare laptops?) or if I can find a good deal on a used Thinkpad. If all else failes I'm prolly gonna either the PortableOne SX or Toshiba Satellite U205 a shot and see how it works out.

 

Any tips on a good gold index that will offer me a positive yield for the next couple of years?

 

One can spend a lifetime, waiting for the 'best, newest technology'. However, one can argue, that technology moves so fast, one must get the latest to innate the possibility of being obsolete before one's time.

But as ZaZ has mensioned, it's a vicious cycle. When you need the technology, you buy it. IT WILL WORK and be compatible for the next 4 - 5 years (given the lifespan of the hardware withstands that time).

Pentium M was the last BIG thing. I'll tell you when the next really big thing comes.

 

Santa Rosa is the next big thing?
I don't really see much performance increase from Santa Rosa aside from increased battery life.

Care to elaborate on what makes the Santa Rosa a significant jump from Merom?
I believe that Merom would last quite long even with Santa Rosa's release.

 

Check this out (vista + flash disk cache): http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=238608

 

Will the flash disk feature be something that comes with Vista or w/ Santa Rosa? Will current core 2 duos be able to do this if upgraded to Vista?

 

I dont think at all that santa rosa will provide the same jump in performance that core duo's did.

I can also guarantee you that the chip after santa rosa will be announced in February and it makes santa rosa look weak in comparison. You going to wait for that one too?

With the testing fo quads not necessarily working I think that right now is the major step in computers. I got my computer now because I do not want to run Vista for at least another year. Santa rosa will be a bit faster and will boot up faster (I think ive booted up my laptop from shut off maybe once since ive got it). Also remember core 2 duo are cheap, heat efficient, and good on battery. From what my friend says about Santa Rosa they arent fully ready yet and dont meet these criteria as well.

 

I think they all go up and down together... right now they're fairly high compared to last year.
Wish i had a crystal ball... Buy low, sell high ... LOL

 

I'd be skeptical of Vista too. It's a good reason to buy sooner than later, which you don't hear much about. Getting the vista coupon gives you choice.

Also remember that core duo are cheaper and better on battery than core 2 duo.
The core 2 duo X60 i tried was an hour worse on battery. With no noticeable performance difference.

 

Are you serious? My understanding was that Core2Duo had equal to or better battery life than CoreDuo. The source of this was highly reputed Anandtech:

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2808&p=15

Personally, I don't care about having a 64-bit Core2Duo but if its the same cost and offers slightly better performance without reducing battery life then why not get it? But if what you say is true then there is no way I want a Core2Duo.

 

Makes total sense. Also depends on the clock speed. Could have been that the Core Duo was at 1.6GHz vs a (min.) 2GHz C2D.

 

I'll assume applications run were of similar demand.

 

Yes, serious. But there are a lot of factors other than the processor affecting battery life so it's not conclusive that the reason the C2D X60 lasts less on battery than a Core Duo X60 is due to the processor. Tho i note the X60s is not available in C2D and i know there are battery life concerns.

I noted a drain of 12-15 watts on the C2D equipped X60. My x60 typically uses 7-12 watts, so it's quite a differnece.

Some labs reports that C2D uses significantly more power, while others reported that was not the case.

 

The only valid lab results are when you compare apple-to-apple with an exactly same configured system (both hardware AND software). Don't have links infront of me now, but I clearly remember seeing those with Asus and Dell lappys and the difference was insignificant. 1 hour difference you mentioned above has something do with, just my guess, wi-fi on/off or any other display setting or video card config. That could easily contribute to the difference.

Regarding the whole discussion about CD vs C2D. If you already have CD, it makes no sense to upgrade to C2D. If you are buying a new laptop, you will get your C2D and future prove your system with 64-bit architecture. In my personal case, a lot of audio application switching to 64-bit precision and its important to me. I'm sure graphic applications will to follow.

 

Yep I know.

But the X60 has no video card, and the wifi-on wont discharge the battery 1.5 hrs faster (just notice the wattage diff when you toggle the wifi on-off and do the math!).

The biggest difference in comparing two laptops perhaps is the relative condition of the battery. But wherease mine is a half-year old, the new C2D X60 units i've seen at work had a new battery with few cycles.

For windoze end users, I would not recommend anyone buy C2D just for 64-bit architecture, because judging by history (eg. when 32 bit architecture was released), the laptop will be obsolete before 64-bit computing matters (except on the server side or with linux).

An IBM memo states that C2D uses more power, no surprise. We standardized on the 170997U model for internal use (i.e., like in my signature). We designed the darn thing, lenovo assembles & sells em. Not sure offhand what intel states about C2D power utilization, intel would be the a better authority than ibm except that the intel marketing machine suppresses the truth in an attempt to sell sell sell... Remember when intel chips produced arithmetic errors and sold 'em anyway while ibm refused to? LOL

 

Didn't realize you work for IBM But for the sake of argument, but C2D is the only choice in all of the new laptops so its not even an option. Its a natural progress and you can't stop that. A few month back that would of been a valid argument to get CD or wait until C2D is released. Now, its not a choice. In theory, it probably makes sense for increase power since CD/C2D use the same fab technology and you are adding more functionality blocks into the same footprint (double L2 cache, 32/64 bit, etc.). I haven't looked closely into all the technology reviews and differences between those two. Maybe C2D has a better internal power management when idle? I would like to run a comparison test myself, but unfortunately they just got for us at work T60 (a very cut down 14" CD system w/GMA and 5k4 hd), while I'm getting on Monday my new personal T60 (15" C2D w/x1400 and 7k2 hd). That would of been a good test, except systems are apples-and-oranges

 

wow ur gonna have 2 new laptops, let alone 2 of the same model just for the heck of it?

 

The other T60 (14", CD) was given to us at work to replace T23. Its a specific work related laptop with pre-install software which is used for work related stuff only. We didn't even have a choice of what options we get, everything is the same. I don't consider that as my personal machine. Therefore, I'm getting my own T60 (C2D) configured the way how I want it. My older T42 will go to my wife Than in a couple of years when I get the latest-and-greatest T-series, my wife will inherit my T60 and my daughter who will be 4 year old by that time, will get our T42. She is only 20 month old now, but already has her eye on a red thumbstick button. As I'm typing the reply, she is trying to push it now

 

hahaha, LOL

 

Feature comes with Vista, but it needs hardware support. So it needs Santa Rosa or Hybrid HDD or even it looks like a flash drive will be also enough.

 

So all Vista machines will now come with hybrid hard drives?