ThinkPad purists

Which current ThinkPad would you not touch with a ten foot pole, i.e. ThinkPad in name but not in quality?

ThinkPad Edge
X100e
L and SL Series

What else?

 

I don't think the Edge, X100e or L/SL are necessarily a bad for what they are. Lenovo is playing a dangerous game here. They're trying to expand the ThinkPad halo, which has been built by offering high quality machines, to machines that don't meet the ThinkPad Standard in the minds of consumers. I don't that it's all played out yet.

 

the Thinkpad Edge 13 inch and lower can be a good alternative for people on a budget.

I don't like the L and SL series because of its hinge design.

But if you are not on a budget, i would suggest you get a regular T, X, W series laptop, even a second hand or refurb model maybe a good alternative.

 

I see little point for the L/SL-series, but I actually don't think the Edge series and the X100e are bad, really. In fact, if the X100e didn't have heat/battery issues and was a bit cheaper, I may have gotten one for more portable use. The Edge series is pretty good for its lower price point and slightly different target market as well, especially the new and upcoming models: I like the new soft-matte texture ("moss green," did they call it?) and the chiclet keyboard doesn't seem bad other than the fact that it loses the typical 7-row layout.

 

Chicklet keyboard = not a Thinkpad ..imho.

 

Yeah I don't like these Thinkpad-wannabes either. They look like Ideapad/Thinkpad hybrids.

 

I do think the Edge seem good for what they are, but I also think you start running into problems when you fracture your brand to the point where you're no longer recognizable. ASUS for example had an interesting thing going with their EEPC brand recognition on the netbook front until they started releasing an endless series of strange new variants that didn't seem to actually accomplish anything aside from confuse the consumer.

I'm not sure trying to be all things to all people is even possible, much less a bright business model.

 

Well, if you take a look at NBR's review of the X100e, you'll notice one major point that was mentioned in regards to the keyboard is that although the keyboard looks radically different, it feels the same when typing. If that is the case, and all the other great features of the keyboard are preserved: traditional color-coding, solid typing feel, spill-drainage-holes, 7-row-full-size layout, key layout... then I definitely wouldn't mind a chiclet keyboard in mainstream Thinkpads.

In short, and relating to the broader topic of this thread, there's a line between keeping traditional strengths and characteristics and stifling beneficial developments/innovation in the sole name of tradition/"purism." Not saying that that is necessarily the case in point with the keyboard design, but it's something that I hope the Thinkpad design team keeps in mind nevertheless for all qualities of future Thinkpads.

 

My SL510 T4400 runs all my software, has a beautiful bright screen, and great keyboard, and a tough smooth finish to its chassis.

Compare this was the new T410 that somebody at one of my clients just bought. The chassis of that new T410 looks like a piece of thin, shoddy plastic compared with my SL510.

Just FYI ...

 

"the Thinkpad Edge 13 inch and lower can be a good alternative for people on a budget"

But Thinkpads have not been intended for people with budgetary concerns.

Renee

 

I like the new Thinkpad Edge style, it looks really high quality to me. I wouldn't mind if future T-series look like this, IMHO. Lenovo ThinkPad Edge E220s early hands-on - Engadget Galleries

 

No...I don't think I could deal with the chicklet-style keyboard. And as for the looks - most likely I am a boring person - but I find the traditional ThinkPad looks (R, T, X, W series) the most elegant. Maybe I am behind the times in this matter.

 

If they can cram a roll cage, alloy chassis and traditional ThinkPad keyboard into the Edge, then yes, otherwise, no. To me, ThinkPads are trusted tools and not fashion statements.

 

Why? Have you tried any chicklet keyboards from Lenovo? Out of the the few Lenovos I've had, the chicket has been my favorite by far. (Hated the keyboard on my T61) Preference plays a huge role but the clicket keyboard is well build and is joy to type on.

I do understand the hatred of the cheaper Thinkpads. It taints the image of brand in a way. Thinkpads are known for being top of the class and when start mixing in so-so quality it can hurt the image. That to me though, sounds like people just have big egos. Like people are insulted that the expensive and well build Thinkpad they have are going be less prestigious because people will see the lesser Thinkpads and will connect that image to their laptop. (Not everyone mind you )

 

Sorry, but you chicklet models are the mutts of the line. Diluting the ThinkPad pedigree.

 

Chiclet keyboards can be surprisingly good, even compared with Thinkpads. I have the Apple Bluetooth keyboard, and it's every bit as good to type on as my Thinkpad keyboard (only real complaint I have is that the key travel is a little too shallow, but that doesn't have to do with the chiclet style keyboard). I've seen Apple's laptop keyboards in person, and they all seem to have a really solid typing experience. I haven't experienced the Edge keyboard in person, but it seems that all the reviews have been positive about the keyboard.

 

I heard nothing but good thing about the chiclet keyboard on the edge line. The two things that is loss from changing to the new chiclet design is keyboard layout(insert key + etc) and it is protect the laptop less from water damage.

 

Apparently they are now

 

As a Edge 13 user, which have the same keyboard with X100e, i can tell you that the keyboard is as comfortable as my T410i. It is quiter than T410i though. You just have to get used to the new layout, which i think will not become a big problem.

From the first post, my choice is X100e. The reason is, well, Edge is quite attractive to me, so another X100e will be too crowded.

 

from what I have tried the thinkpad style chiclets are ok. they are better than the other brands' chiclets. the big fail in other brands' chiclets is the viscously damped nature of the keys. It feels like pressing on casio calculator buttons or those silicone keyboard mat things. There is more spring action on the thinkpad style chiclets so it more closer resembles proper desktop keyboards.

 

Yeah, that's true. This is why I decided to buy second-hand "real" Thinkpad (R61i) instead of those imitations.

BTW, SL series are equipped with IdeaPad BIOS which is really poor.

 

Does anyone prefer the traditional Thinkpad keyboard over Thinkpad USB keyboard?

 

The problem with the thinkpad edge is the JOKE screen options. Only garbage low res 1366x768, and ONLY glossy. No upgrades possible. What the hell is that? Just pathetic.

 

if you need better screen, go for T or W thinkpad series, that's pure marketing and we can't do much about that

 

"Apparently they are now "

That's a major problem in a capitalistic economy. Those people with the money speak as opposed to those people with brains. By far, the two should not be confused.

Renee

 

they certainly can do work on their product line and branding.

It seems with thinkpads they keep changing and adding and removing product lines like they havent gotten their brand straightened out yet. For example, they introduced the T series where it used to be their top line, then it was mid range and X was the top line, then now it seems its a toss up between X and T because TXXXs is now better and thinner, and they removed the R line and added Edge... blah blah. Its so messy.

Other companies keep their lineage and brand through many years. They are confident in their product lines. Look at BMW. 7 series is their executive line. Z series their sports line, etc. Its very tidy and it stays the same for many years. In the PC business, Dell, you know precision>lattitude>vostro. That fact stays the same too.

 

Didn't the T in T series used to stand for "thin and light" while being powerful at one point in time? Have they taken a look at a T series lately...

You can add to your brand line. Other luxury brands do it all the time to get the $$ and market share. But the constant changing brand line of ThinkPads is what annoys me now. What was the purpose of the SL line ever existing? Budget business laptops? Then why call it a ThinkPad. Dell differentiated between vostro and lattitude. HP did the same with EliteBook and ProBook. We just have a range of thinkpads from the lowliest SL/L to the mightiest W. And then they created "Edge" which should've been a brand line on its own. And then X got tainted with the X100e. Which probably should've been thrown into the Edge line as well.

If VW started throwing Bugatti logos on everything... wouldn't work out very well.

 

@Smellycant: Well, I don't think the T-series was ever meant as the "top of the line." It's supposed to just be the mainstream general purpose business laptop given to the bulk of the employees of a corporation. The X-series is more expensive due to its smaller size, and is intended to be a general purpose business ultraportable. The T- and X- labels were never intended to be used as a price hierarchy demarcation. I think, actually, that Lenovo has made the wise decision not to mess around with those two lines and the W-series (which I think was wisely split from the T-series - the -p suffix was confusing in the past). They're still fairly traditional, except for the strange placement of the X100e in the X-series instead of in the Edge family.

Where it gets really annoying is the use of the -i suffix for Core i3 variants of the T- and X-series machines (when there is no other difference), the change of the SL-series to the L-series for no explicable reason, the addition of the X100e (which has a mysterious -e suffix, adding further confusion) to the X-series family, etc.

Ideally, I think Lenovo should consolidate the Thinkpad line to just this:
T-series: T410, T510
W-series: W510, W710*
X-series: X210*, X210t*, X410**
L-series: L410, L510
Edge: E110', E310'', E410'', E510''

*Keep incrementing, by 1 or 10, consistent, even if it is only a minor update - the digits just get all mixed up and confusing
**Rename T410s to X410: after all, the goal of the T410s really is portability, not mainstream usage
'Renamed X100e: really, it's an Edge masquerading as an X-series
''Renamed Edge 13, 14, 15: keep consistent with other Thinkpads, and newly released Edge names

 

I second the motion.

 

Don't you think the relatively short battery life of your suggestion to rebrand the T410s as X410 would not really put it in the X series category - because even with 6-cell batteries, the X series offer a much better battery life?

 

it makes sense to me, X-series are ultraportable (and they offer 4 cell batteries in some cases and only get about 3-4 hours for that). X410 would work.

Maybe they should drop the L-series completely and make the Edge line their "small and medium business" brand like the Dell Vostro.

 

I can't really comment not having used the cheaper versions but the x201 is best notebook I've ever had and I've had dozens probably 20. Tough as hell and great keyboard. T61 I had is not as tough but that may have something to do with mass when you drop it as I often did. Cracked case up by dropping and broke screen stepping on it. Now when you open it the body wants to separate from hinges. Fan also made bearing noise.

 

Good point, but Sandy Bridge will save us all. Supposedly. We'll see.

 

Well, I wouldnt say BMW arent changing anything within their brand, they have added quite many new models during recent years and I bet some of their die hard fans dont consider X3/X1 or series 1 as being full blooded BMW's
Problems are that as already mentioned - besides X/T/W series they are not consistent and seems like are still trying to define their budget offerings.

Agree about Edge, they could make it as standalone line just like Vostro/Probook is.
Perhaps, that what they are going to do in coming years when customers will get used to Edge=ThinkPad formula?

 

They _add_ stuff from time to time, they don't _change_ their lineup or its brand image much.

Wtih thinkpads on the other hand, you do recall the former R series that pretty much looked exactly like a T series (really, it did albiet slightly thicker technically) and people had a hard time differentiating them other than the cost. While the R series was alive, the SL series was there too as an economical lineup. What is the purpose of this? Oh, now the R series is gone.

What else? They changed the T series to be widescreen, and put the X300 into the X lineup, which some may argue is a successor to the T42 form factor notebooks, as they look very similar. etc etc. They keep switching things up that the casual consumer aware of thinkpads may not follow whats going on through the years.

 

The former T series in the T42 form factor era was their flagship high end notebook.

And yea, now that you mentioned, all those designations at the back to confuse people even more. The 's', the 'i', the 'p' - can all be confusing to the casual consumer that swings by the thinkpad lineup to check things out.

 

That's more a critical flaw of the T410s than a targeting issue - the T410s is intended to be a much more portable version of the T410, and ideally, it would have better battery stamina. So, from a branding point of view, the T410s would fit better as an X410, although you do have a point that from a practical point of view, its mediocre battery life limits it when compared to the 12" X-series options.

Arguably, I would say that's because the W-series didn't exist then, and the R-series did - the T-series also extended into the mobile workstation segment, and the "bulk distribution Thinkpads" were intended to be the R-series machines (although many corporations used pretty much exclusively T-series machines, pretty much cementing its role as the mainstream business laptop).

 

Oh...I would love a T410s with the battery life of a X201 (with a 6 cell)! It would be the perfect machine for me. I really do wish Lenovo could do something about that. So, yes, I'd say, if they could fix the battery issue - and I mean really fix it - to the X201/200 level, they could viably rebrand the T410s as an X series machine - though the nagging thought remains - should they not also then reduce the screen size to 13", which brings us back to the x301?

Personally, I think the T series should be 14" and 15" affairs (here they should offer "svelte" forms for at least the 14"). The X series 12" and 13" affairs. And the W series would play whatever role they play in their current lineup.

Edit: But then again, what the hell do I know about such things!!!! I am just putting forth my "wish-list"!!!

 

That's why I decided to try my luck at getting one on eBay. I was considering the new Lenovo G560 on sale at Office Depot for $399. It is impressive but in reading the reviews it seems the machine is not up to Thinkpad standards as defined by the notebook community. In addition to saving the tax I would have paid, I wound up with a "real" notebook and am feeling very lucky to have it for the same price as the G560 (before tax).

I do the same thing with cars. Find something expensive and well made that's been well taken care of but no longer has high book value.

Mike
T400 6474FP9

 

Edge vs Vostro
L-series vs Latitude E5xxx
T-series vs Latitude E6xxx
X-series vs Latitude E4xxx (soon to be E62xx)
W-series vs Precision

Makes sense. Although x100e series IMO should be classified as L or SL instead of X.

 

I would have thought that the Elitebooks are more the business line of HP machines and are comparable to the T series. Or am I wrong?

 

You're right, the Elitebooks are T- and W-series competitors. But he never mentioned Elitebooks in his post...?

 

I didn't see it - or I perhaps missed it...did I?

Or, is what he refers to as Latitude Exxxx a reference to the Elitebooks? I always thought the Latitudes and the Elitebooks were different lines. Maybe I am wrong.

 

"Well, I don't think the T-series was ever meant as the "top of the line." It's supposed to just be the mainstream general purpose business laptop given to the bulk of the employees of a corporation."

Tell me one thing that is business like about the T series. Just one thing.....

Renee

 

Hmm...but by that count you are saying that Lenovo's Y series of machines are the same or very similar to the T series.

 

What he means by "Latitude Exxxx" is the Latitude E-series (Latitude E6410, E6510, E4310, etc.); it's not a references to the Elitebooks.

• Simple, understated matte black look
• Antiglare matte display
• Easily serviceable parts, with great documentation
• Solid, spill-proof keyboard
• Robust cooling system for lap-friendly use and reliability
• UltraNav input system for great ergonomics
• Docking connector with a versatile docking solution
• Durable roll cage design for protection of valuable data
• ...

True, many of these do not necessarily benefit only businesses (hence, I have a Thinkpad), however, I would venture to say that Lenovo's majority of Thinkpad sales are to corporations, and ultimately, the business professional is what the Thinkpad design team targets.

 

Could not have put it better!

 

Thinkpads go beyond just business computing:

http://www.lenovo.com/news/us/en/2009/02/rugged_computing.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lenovophotolibrary/sets/72157614274752897/

 

While I know and understand why Lenovo does it, deep down I've sworn off any model that I can't get without a touchpad. My in-transit X201 is coming with just a Trackpoint, the way that it should be. One of these days I will cave and purchase a W7xxDS (I need to see next gen's specs) for my office, but with some regret due to that touchpad.

My personal requirement list for a Thinkpad is as follows.

1. Trackpoint Only
2. Thinklight equipped
3. Traditional Thinkpad keyboard
4. Sturdy, near-indestructible build.
5. Black

I don't want silver rims, fancy chicklet keyboards, and their ilk on my machine.

 

Here's two - lifecycle and support after model has been discontinued.