ThinkPad purists

Ahh... the documentation. I think Thinkpad have the most complete of official documentation and service manual available on the net.

The worst, based on my experience only, is Sony with their Vaio line. It is difficult to find white paper or service manual on Vaio. I think Sony would like to sealed up their technology tightly. Second worst is Acer.

About the display, i think Thinkpad is the only brand who implement matte screen to most of their lines.

 

How long will Lenovo typically support the ThinkPad model after it's been discontinued? I'm talking about BIOS, driver upgrades, etc.

 

I have a T61 sitting around that is 3 years old and there is still updates for it.

 

"•Simple, understated matte black look
•Antiglare matte display
•Easily serviceable parts, with great documentation
•Solid, spill-proof keyboard
•Robust cooling system for lap-friendly use and reliability
•UltraNav input system for great ergonomics
•Docking connector with a versatile docking solution
•Durable roll cage design for protection of valuable data"

None, I repeat none of these things make it a business computer.

I detest "business" and I love my thinkpad.

Renee - Fomer Operating Systems Developer

Renee

 

How do you define a business computer then?

 

I think the word "business" here refers to "professional" (normatively excluding the "practice and profession" of the arts and media" - though why it should baffles me sometimes). The word "business" does not specifically refer to a specific kind of commercial activity.

In short, the classic Thinkpad is very work-centric and does not (generally and as compared to media-centric machines) cater well to the demands of media display and consumption.

One another note (and at the risk of deviating from the issue of the thread): What would be some of the best competitors - in terms of price, config, weight etc - to the classic ThinkPad X, T, and W series?

Thanks

 

ThinkPad being a business computer is marketing hype. MacBook being a media computer is also marketing hype.

Branding is marketing hype. Certain people raise the "concern" that various models are not "deserved" to be ThinkPad. But what is a ThinkPad anyway? Look at the Mac: I bought the very first model (for over $4500 plus tax) which had little in common with the "candy Macs" nor the current "unibody Macs." Many taxi drivers prefer the Toyota Camry (well, at least in my city), does that make the Camry a business car?

I hear what Renee was saying. Why take marketing hype as reality? If it is good and you like it, buy it and use it. No need to "respect" it because it is claimed to be designed for "business."

 

@lineS_of_flight,

I'd *guess* HP EliteBook and Dell Latitude. I haven't used Elitebooks, but Latitudes aren't too shabby (basically the best the Dell can offer as a non-gaming machine i.e. not Alienware M17x-R2). Metal hinges, solid build etc.... the only thing I remember that bothered me a little is that the keyboard had little flex, but it wasn't good as Thinkpad keyboard anyway. Then there's really pricey HP 8740w with IPS screen.

 

Yea, that's what i thought. Crickets.

 

Fixed.

 

I guess depends how you look at it. I call crappy pretty much any standard glossy crap you buy on a consumer laptop. Plain stock AUO matte was certainly an upgrade for me on X200. I understand tho why some people don't like it - it's subjective.

 

I'd say my T500's 1680x1050 WSXGA+ screen is far from crappy. Accurate colors, good contrast, good grays - the only thing I think is lacking is brightness, since it is a CCFL panel. 200 nits isn't too shabby, though, and I almost never use it at full brightness anyway.

Regarding screens, I really think it depends on the model and your luck - the T510's FHD screen is very nice, as is the X201t's AFFS+ screen. The T410's WXGA+ screen isn't bad either, from what I've seen, although it definitely isn't stellar either. That's not to say I wouldn't appreciate it if Lenovo improved screen quality across the board, perhaps by providing high-quality panels as optional upgrades.

 

^^^ This balanced assessment, which I appreciate very much, has absolutely nothing to do with ThinkPads being "business" computers.

Certain persons try to dismiss any concerns regarding "crappy" displays by saying that ThinkPads are designed for "business" purposes. This is ridiculous. A mediocre component is a mediocre component. Period. They forget that, just a few years ago, some ThinkPads were equipped with excellent IPS displays - to serve "business" functions?

And the operating system and the application software? My 82-year-old mother uses her ThinkPad with exactly the same "crappy" stuff as the most mission-critical business executive: Windows 7, Microsoft Word 14, whatever. Business computer?

 

There is no objective standard and definition for LCD panels on laptops. This is expecially true when we use terms like good, crappy, excellent, mediocre, etc.

I am not annoyed by the LCD panel on my T410s. If I was, it would have been returned in the first week or two. However, my threshhold and quality bar is likely different.

If standards are set, I'm sure the LCD panel on my T410s would fall below the norm on screen angle visibility. My T61p would be below norms now for brightness. My MacBook Pro (matte screen) would be above average. My W510 FHD would certainly be way above average.

The various review sites do measurements. Especially on the high end LCD panels like the Dell U3011. Damn sure better considering the retail price is $1499.

Until this happens on laptop LCDs, subjective definitions and comments will continue. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder anyway.

 

And this has nothing to do with "business" computers.

 

I agree with that, although I wasn't making that claim at all - I was just responding to a previous poster's somewhat extreme and all-encompassing statement.

In response to your statement that Thinkpads being designated "business computers" is all marketing hype:
It's true that a computer is a computer and there's really no particular distinction that makes one a business computer and one a consumer computer, from an objective/physical point of view.

However, the same can be said for cars, really: what makes a car a "sports car?" More power/speed/acceleration? If so, where's the cutoff? Is a Lotus Elise with a (relatively) tiny I4 engine a sports car? Is a Camry SE V6 a sports car? My point through this example is to point out that there are characteristics that you can give a product to make it more "sporty" or more "business-like," although it is true that any one of those characteristics doesn't automatically make it fall into one category or another.

What is more important, I think, is what you write off as "marketing hype." Yes, much of it is marketing. But what this marketing does is let the end user know what the designers had in mind as the target audience when the product was designed: the marketing of the BMW M3 with the line "Racecars shouldn't be confined to racetracks" lets us know that BMW is targeting enthusiast drivers who care about performance. The marketing of the Thinkpad as a business professional's notebook tells us that Lenovo primarily has the business user in mind when it designed the Thinkpads.

Obviously, that's not to say that a different market that is not targeted cannot benefit from a particular product's merits - the ordinary driver can still appreciate the M3's great performance even if I only intend to drive to and from work with it. In the same way, non-business-oriented users can still appreciate laptops targeted towards businesses, such as the Thinkpad: we still benefit from all the features I listed in an earlier post, and that is why we use Thinkpads.

 

You jumping on the Renee "business computer" train? Still waiting for a definition...

 

I would say business computers have the biggest difference when it comes to service and support. Business computers are usually supported longer than consumer computers (parts are also kept in production longer). In addition many business computers are created with IT in mind, so they are made easier to dissemble for repair needs.

In general business computers usually place focus on security features such as finger print readers (something consumer notebook are just getting) and smart card access. Most business computers also have more connectivity options such as 3G and WiMax.

Business computers are built to have long lasting support, strong security features, and a focus on durability over style.

As we move forward though I see the line between business computers and consumer computers blurring.

That's my definition...

 

"You jumping on the Renee "business computer" train? Still waiting for a definition.."

I'm still waiting to hear one thing about a Thinkpad that makes it a "business computer".

Renee


"However, the same can be said for cars, really: what makes a car a "sports car?""

We were not talking about cars BUT what makes a sports car, a sports car is obvious. It comes with a particular set of accessories and the car is usually small so that it will handle well.

I've spent my life writing operating systems for real computers. A thinkpad is not a business computer. I wouldn't have a Thinkpad if it was a business computer. I agree, it is total marketing hype from IBM.

Renee

 

I honestly think too much thought is going into this. Sometimes we can over think topics...

Business computers- Designed with durability (durability over style), security (fingerprint, smart card, etc), and IT support (long support life, easy to maintain, etc) in mind.

Personal computers- Designed with style (style over durability) and multimedia in mind (Better screens, Better Dolby speakers, HDMI, etc)

That is actually how Lenovo describes the two lines (Think and Idea) and I completely agree.



Does "Think" have to be "used for business" no.. but these design ideas are usually attractive to business users.

Does "Idea" have to be "used for home" no... but these design ideas are usually attractive to personal users.

 

As I'm well aware - it was used as an analogy, to make things clearer. And the lines are hardly obvious. By your definition, would a Smart car with a spoiler and custom exhaust become a "sports car?" Obviously not, unless you have very strange definitions of "sports cars."

In the same way, you can't delineate what is or is not a business computer based on a few criteria. It's what audience a product is catered to that places it into a particular category.

You may not have bought your T61 for the same purpose/usage patterns as a typical business, but it's a fact that Lenovo markets Thinkpads as business notebooks, because that is the core audience being targeted. As I said before, and Marcham89 pointed out in his post, you obviously do not have to be a business user to appreciate the merits of Thinkpads, but that does not change how Lenovo markets the laptop.

 

I wish to point out that these two points are not related: "Lenovo markets ThinkPads as business notebooks" and "Lenovo aims at business people as its core audience for ThinkPads."

Implementing the latter would be unwise, for how can Lenovo sell "millions of systems" if it sells primarily to office workers working for corporations?

Hyping the former would be advantageous, because it nurturs the myth of being superior, better, more sturdy, whatever...

But if one thinks (pun intended) carefully, one will realize that most, if not all, of the ThinkPad advantages are mechanical: the electronic and software components are generic commodity. Take software, what are Lenovo's added values in terms of "business" support?

 

The ThinkVantage software is a gift for us IT workers.

It becomes very easy to restore a client's system or help run diagnostics through the Tool Box.

Also System Update is beautiful since most users can't install drivers and updates themselves.

Then also don't forget Client Solutions which is security heaven for buisness as it stores passwords on the TPM chip and Access connections which is also great.

ThinkPad provides the best of hardware and software. (Including EE)

 

^^^ I was waiting for someone to say "ThinkVantage".

Well, ThinkVantage functionality is not unique to ThinkPad notebooks, and it is a "gift" to my mother and her sister, too. I was considering "business" support at a more significant level.

 

Like what?

 

^^^ That's exactly the point. A product can be marketed as a "business" notebook for no specific reasons at all.

Being a user/owner of many ThinkPads over the years, I'm not saying that ThinkPads are "bad" - far from it. I'm just reluctant to venerate them as "business" notebooks.

 

Well, that's pretty much my point - features that are, from the design stages, targeted at businesses can also be useful to consumers. It's not an either-or relationship.

Consider how a company targets a specific audience: through marketing. It's the same deal, as design and marketing are tied together from the earliest stages in a product's creation. With any successful product, there is always a target market in mind, and in this case, it's the business computer user.

As for how wise such a move is: targeting businesses also makes Thinkpads attractive to professional-minded end-users or those who just want a [insert positive Thinkpad adjective here] laptop.

It is precisely the little things that do matter when it comes to computer support. Updated drivers that remain available, detailed IT manuals, a prompt and helpful tech support line, etc: that's what a business or any end user thinking about deploying many Thinkpads/buying a Thinkpad will have in mind. A computer company doesn't have to do anything radical to make the support far more attractive: it just has to do all these things (which you seem to regard as superficial) right.

 

I don't know Lenovo's specific time-frame, but many large companies have a 3 or 4 year lifecycle for the systems they use and would require support for that entire time.

In a former life, I was responsible for selecting desktop and notebook hardware for a Large Company. Most of my users just needed a basic notebook for office-type use, and except in very specific instances that provided solid business justification for it, I was disinterested in bells and whistles, high-end screens included. As a company, we bought by the thousands. Outside the executive suite, individual users did not get a preference nor input. Based on their job function, they were issued whatever standard desktop or notebook we were using when they were eligible for a replacement.

These are the kinds of things I considered as I looked at business-class notebooks:

• a model with guaranteed production dates so that we could plan rollouts that might phase in over a year or so (ie the so-called workhorse model)
• escalated support including drivers and software updates
• suitability for travel whether just back and forth to the office or international
• parts availability throughout my planned lifecycle
• a dedicated account rep on speed-dial
• price

 

Exactly!

I've been a partner of a design consulting business. I drink no "Kool Aid" from no one. What you were alluding to is the high-value relationship attributes between two business entities, a supplier and a customer.

Those attributes have little to do with any technical attributes of a product, whether or not it is called ThinkPad.

What I meant by "more significant level" was exactly that - things beyond a notebook per se. You don't make a "business" notebook: you sell and support it in a "business" manner.

Eons ago, I witnessed how IBM sold and supported their 370 mainframes and OS/370 & JES/3 software. Both the hardware and the software were kind of erratic for a few years, but the daily support and monthly meetings were top-notch. Again, little to do with the iron and the bits.

 

First of all, a little about my background. I was an operating systems developer for the number two computer company and I worked for them for about twenty years. The corporation was known for it's technical acumen.

As a professional and as a benchmarker, I appreciate a well built machine. As a former DECie (Digital Equipment Corporation) I hate business and always have. But I know the characteristics of a well made machine and my Thinkpad is definately a well made machine. When it's called "a business machine" that's definately a putdown to me. So when I hear a thinkpad sold as a business machine, I can't take them seriously.

Renee

 

What computer(s)? What OS?

 

If you want to be nitpicky the term I use is a "business class" machine. Nothing to do with the business per-se but same as you'd say you're travelling on an airplane in a "business class" as in "something better than general". In this case, I'd assume the Thinkpads are built primarly for the business purposes (inclusion of a modem etc. ) but laptops have become so widespread people of course use it for anything.

 

For me "bussiness machine" means something that makes work easier than on others machines.
Eg.:

• better build quality = not have to worry about how to carry it
• good screen = photographers/architectst would be satisfied
• good warranty = another 'do not worry' point
• etc. etc. etc.

Got my point?

 

I am the one who enjoy Thinkpad as a business computer. Yes it is being used mostly for work but i am using it also for entertainment especially music and movies.

Thinkpad is known for long time support, heck it even have some windows 7 drivers for my long retired Z61m. Thinkpad have much better support in term of drivers and software update compare to Vaio or Acer. It is easy to locate the driver with Thinkvantage software, albeit TVT is one of the reason my employer stick with Thinkpad line.

I have bad experience with Vaio, especially if it near the warranty period. Sony have a bad habit to discontinue they product so fast, and they discontinue-- everything! You have to wandering arround, why the system you bought, which capable to run Win7, do not have Win7 driver from Sony just because they sell it with Win Vista preloaded. I really appreciate the work by software engineers at Lenovo to continue support the old system. Kudos for them.

On other hand, the one thing i disagree for defining a 'business machine' by Lenovo is the exclusion of advance music capability on thinkpad. I long time awaits dolby stereo system, jbl speakers, SACD capable Ultrabay -- and so on to be implemented on every thinkpad (okay, maybe the T series first).
Not that the current one (with Smart Audio) is bad, but i think business machine still deserve stellar musical experience. Oh well, at least they make the speaker louder on t410 (compare to Z61m).

 

I didn't think anyone still had SACD

I also had a Sony Vaio and it was awful. The build quality was horrible, the hinges practically destroyed themselves with just normal laptop usage. Out of warranty, my screen just went black one day and never came back and my hard drive got super slow at the same time. I could still use an external monitor but at that point I was just exacerbated by how horrible that computer was. My current Thinkpad is much nicer but I definitely would like better audio, better GPU options, and better screen quality ( my Thinkpad doesn't get good battery life, but the current ones are much better than mine)

 

Digital VMS - VAX

 

You must have bumped into Dave Cutler then. VMS -> WNT.