ThinkPad questions for people who have used many models.

Currently, I have an X200s for my portable machine. I've also had a few other ThinkPads for this purpose in the past. I've had this X200s, and R60e, and a 14" widescreen T61.

Some people may disagree with me, but I do feel the durability is going down. The X200s and T61 are both better than average machines durability wise, but can't even compare to the R60e. I (accidentally smashed the R60e into a metal doorframe at one point while walking with my hands full, and nothing happened. It even feels more solid. The plastics are all thicker. Lightweight is great, but durability is a higher priority for me. I was having a bit too much fun with the R60e one day, and I took out a powerful airsoft gun (400+ feet per second), and opened fire on it. Nothing happened (just small indents in the thick plastic, but none went through it). I brought it back inside, and much to my amusement, everything worked perfectly. I wouldn't dare shoot my X200s. The plastics are no longer thick enough to take that sort of impact. Obviously I don't buy a laptop just to shoot it, but I'm looking for one to carry with me daily, which means it will be dropped at some point, and in general suffer more abuse than the gaming laptops that only get moved from one desk to another.

I've been looking at the R400, but if it's anything like the X200s, I'd opt for an older ThinkPad. I really want to know where that change was. The R60e felt so different.

I'm also wondering if anyone who owns both ThinkPads and Dell Latitudes (modern ones, such as the E4300/E6400 and the corresponding ThinkPads for that generation) can compare them.

Ultimately I'm looking for a 12-14" machine where durability and batter life are the top priorities. I have other machines for gaming or intensive programs. Really all I need to be able to do is browse the internet, watch movies, and use office applications comfortably. The last thing I'd like is a SATA interface to use my Intel SSD, so I don't have to worry about breaking a magnetic drive.

Looking forward to your input, thanks!

 

I think if you shot your x200e, the damage also would be cosmetic only.

 

I'd do all sorts of experiments if I had more money, but for now I'm just looking for something with the feel of an R60e. Regardless of whether or not the durability decreased, I prefer the feel. It had much less flex than the X200s/T61, and I worried a lot less about that machine. It also is running to this day (sold it to a friend, but I still see it form time to time).

 

I would admit that currently my R61e overall feels a lot more solid than my T61, there's leeway in some parts of my T61 such as the hinges and minor squeaks on the palmrest near the touchpad (I may need to reseat it again!).

However having used the R400 and X201T I can say that they feel every bit as tough as the previous gen laptops that I’m currently using. I haven't notice any build quality issues on these machines, but then again it’s rather subjective as sometimes you do get the odd “lemon” since not all machines are built the same.

I used to have a Dell Latitude E6410 and was impressed with the build quality. The Tri-Metal casing does give it a solid feel and dare I say looks aesthetically pleasing compared to my ThinkPad. However the lid area does seem a bit thin for my liking, it certainly doesn’t have the lid roll cages to protect the screen so it may bow under pressure if you hit it the wrong way.

 

The subjectivity is a bit of an issue. I need to invade lead_org's house and mess with each of his ThinkPads for a few minutes, and then go find whatever my favorite was either in the Lenovo Outlet or eBay.

I find what you said quite interesting. Two machines of the same generation, and the R feels better than the T.

The screen is one area that the X200s and R60e feel very different. The X200s is strong, but does bow slightly under pressure, whereas the R60e doesn't bow at all.

If I was to grab an R400 from the Lenovo Outlet, do they allow returns?

 

Yes, but with a 15% restocking fee, I believe, unless there is something wrong with the machine and you get an RMA and opt for a refund.

 

i drop my t61 to the wodden floor. about 1 metre high accidentaly. the crack is on the wodden floor. only small scratch on my notebook.

 

Having only used two Thinkpads (my T61, and my X301), I feel the build quality/durability with the X301 is much better than that of the T61. Then again, the machine also cost a LOT more than the T61 did, so it all comes at a cost I guess.

I've dropped my T61 twice (both from about 3-4 feet up, and onto a carpet floor). Not a scratch on it, anywhere. Both times it stopped the HDD, and saved my data. Any other laptop for sure probably would've thrown the Hard Disk heads off.

 

I guess that's out of the question.

I wish I could say the same. I just did some "testing" with my X200s, and the carpet is just fine, but the plastic did crack in one spot. I also just broke part of the battery latch. Something really changed between the R60e and X200s.

My top consideration is currently a T60 14.1". Any opinions on those?

 

I have used many and owned one. My t400 isnt as durable as some previous models, but I can attest to its durability. Not only roughing it on the go, but being tossed while running and still works perfect afterwards. Hopefully it doesnt get terribly worse from here...

 

Out of the models you've used, which felt the sturdiest?

I'm not trying to say that any of the ThinkPads are bad. Even with what I just broke on my X200s, doing the same to my M15x would've destroyed it. I just feel no need to have anything short of the most durable ThinkPad, since computing power isn't a real concern (within reason).

 

Ive supported a few models but pretty much anything pre the t60 era feels more sturdy IMHO. as for the current series I cannot comment on the x10 or x20 models compare to my t400.

 

I think the laptop that comes closest to your r60e would be the r500. The r400 uses the t400 lid which is thinner in the external casing but is structural reinforced by a magnesium rollcage.

The t4x feels better not the fit and finish department but there is no way that it is as strong as the t6x laptop.

 

my T510 is amazingly sturdy

 

The R500 and T510 sound great, but they're just too big for me.

I suppose what I truly want is an X200s that's built with the older materials and older mindset. The one where weight didn't play into the design at all.

Edit: This is unrelated, but I just called Lenovo support. I needed to get this fixed whether I'm keeping the X200s or not. Ever since I've had it, the trackpoint wasn't working. I had always thought I just needed a new keyboard/trackpoint. My friend had another keyboard, and once installed, nothing changed. Lenovo support was easy to work with (as compared to Dell), and I'll have a box at my place on Monday. Once it's all fixed up I might put it in the marketplace and downgrade to a T60.

Also, is the ATI X1300 a reliable graphics card? I'm not very familiar with older ATI products.

 

The r400 didnt have the magnesium cage or the ati gpu. That was the difference between the r and t series.

 

My X201 is about on par with my X41 as far as build quality is concerned. I trusted my X41 for two years to take my day to day abuse, and my X201 is living up to the same high standard. My T22 still stands as the tank of the family, a tradition that I believe still holds true with the modern day T series, If you want the best, the most durable, the strongest, and most reliable Thinkpad available, even Lenovo will tell you that the T series is the answer.

When the transition to Lenovo was made, I was certain that the Thinkpad line was doomed to become cheap, plasticky, and horrible, and had sincerely convinced myself that my X41 was going to have to go the distance. However, a client of mine picked up a trio of last gen X/T series notebooks about two years back - an X200, T400 and an X300 - and I was positively blown away by the quailty of the units. The X300 in particular was a spectacularly solid unit for its size and price, and I wouldn't mind adding a used one to my collection at some point simply for nostalgia. I have never been so enamored with the aesthetics of any consumer electronic device as I was when I laid eyes on the X300.

Once I commit to shedding my desktop, I'll definitely be considering the T5xx series as a replacement - with an X2xx series operating as my mobile system. The pull of the W series is tempting, but if the W7xxds goes away with this generation, a T series will win my heart.

 

I actually looked into getting an X300, but the prices were nearly double what I payed for my X200s (price has to be a consideration for my secondary machine. I already spent a good amount on my two main ones. I get everything used, which helps).

I guess I'm dreaming. I want a 12" T series machine. It would be as thick as it is deep.

So your recommendation would be to just get the newest T series model I can afford? Also, I've never used an X300 personally; how did that machine compare to the T series?

 

The R400 does have internal rollcage for both screen and chassis. It is also available with switchable graphics like that of the t400, which is available in certain country.

 

The X300 was spectacularly over-engineered, so while I wouldn't put it quite on the level of a T series, it came very, very close. Tolerances were tight, the unit I used had absolutely zero flex anywhere in the chassis, and felt incredibly well built for its light weight. I could confidently lift the entire thing with two fingers on either of the lower corners, and carry it around without any flex or creaking whatsoever. The slimness of the LCD concerned me, but no matter where I put pressure on the casing, the LCD image did not deform in the slightest - I think that was thanks to the rollcage. If Lenovo were to refresh the exact same design with a Sandy Bridge i7, I would sell my soul.....or at least some of my more expensive gadgets, to get one for my desk. The older units are underpowered for my usage, but if you are looking at replacing an X200, a used X301 on Ebay might just fit the bill. If you decide you don't like it, you can sell it to me and jump on a T series from the Lenovo outlet.

The T series is still the tank, and if you can deal with the difference in weight, I'd still consider the T series above all others. That being said, where mobility is a priority, I can't complain about the X series at all.

 

The R400 does have internal rollcage for both screen and chassis. It is also available with switchable graphics like on the t400, which is available in certain country.

 

I just realized I have some wierd sentences please excuse my grammar errors, I must be tired.

After about one month use of my T410s I unfortunately have to take back what I said about it. It's definitely a good machine, but it does not compare to the quality of the Thinkpad x31.

Palmrest
The palmrest is not as solid, I actually have a slight creaking sound on upper left side. The palmrest also flexes a bit more compared to the x31, but this might have been due to a design fix. I have heard earlier palmrest were cracking because they were too hard and too thin. So I'm not sure if I have the redesign palmrest, if there was any but I have experienced no cracking so far.

Screen
The screen handles pretty good, but not as good as the x31. When I pressed the back of the screen the x31 would flex. The T410s was able to hold quite a bit better actually. The T410s did lose however when opening and closing the lid. When I would open the screen using the index finger and thumb I would notice screen wobble/flex. On the x31 it feels like a solid piece of metal.

-I have to add this little story this actually happened today, my reckless/careless non-techy brother tried pushing the screen back so he could get a better view, we were watching youtube videos. With just his thumb and index finger he grabbed the very bottom of the screen, where the hinge was and keep in mind he was using a pinch grip not index far away from thumb, but pinch grip. He somehow managed to push the screen back really far. I just freaked. Imagine the amount of force required just to do that, it's a lot and only on a small area. Somehow the T410s survived undamaged from that. I kind of know why he did it, he's using my x31 now and just doesn't realize not all notebook are tanks.

Casing
I would have to say the casing of the T410s is also slightly of lower quality. The casing flexes more, but very very slightly more. If we were to exclude the DVD area I would say the T410s has slightly less quality.

Lenovo has definitely done a lot of things right and improved from IBM, but some things don't feel as solid.

 

My X200 and X200t are as good as any ThinkPads I've used. Quality sort of ebbs and flows. There's this myth that machines of the IBM era, which were made in Mexico and China long before Lenovo came aboard, were built like tanks and never had any issues. Anyone who knows the brand well knows this to be untrue.

 

The casing is not really of a lower quality but rather they are thinner on the T410s to keep a 14.1 inch laptop's weight similar to that of the 12.1 inch. In fact they employ the same kind of casing materials.

So basically the T4x0s flexes more than the X31 due to the fact that thinner thickness casing is used rather than lower quality of the material used.

 

Of my Thinkpads I find that the best build one is the T43P, it feels extremely solid without any kind of flex, and the keyboard is still the best I've ever used.

The worst one would be my T410, there is no keyboard flex, but the plastic in front of the keyboard feels really thin and there is some squiking when you put some presure on it, but it's still a great machine which have been "around" the world a couple of times without any problems, and I even sat on it once when it was hiding beneath a pillow, I weigh around 280 lbs ;-) And there is only a little discoloration on the screen in a small spot, and you have to look very carefully so even see it.

 

I think the whole impression that Lenovo made/branded thinkpads have lower quality came about because of the T400 and T500 mess. This is definately a PR nightmare for them that seems to be haunting them to this day.

In that generation of thinkpads, there is little doubt about the drop in quality both in the materials used and the construction compared to T61 or the Z61 or the T43, etc.

They have since improved the construction of thinkpads in general a lot since the T400. Actually even old IBM thinkpads have low quality ones e.g. I've used an R31 before and the plastic is flimsy etc, however those are also not their top of the line series.

The X series I think is probably their highest quality offering.

 

I am not sure what the differences are between the T61 or a T400/T500, they look pretty much exactly the same (other than some minor changes to the chassis design). I have both in front of me, there is no perceivable quality differences as such.

@Smellycant, can you elaborate on how you have reached such conclusions, and what evidences are you basing your claims on (Have you actually owned or used both the T61 and T400/T500 at the same time)?

 

Though I can only speak for the 1 ThinkPad I use on a current basis (my Z61t in my sig), the LCD housing does flex a bit, the hinge only a tiny tiny bit (I have yet to completely strip it apart and maybe tighten some screws). But overall it is a very solidly built laptop, more so than any cheapo consumer grade notebook.

Though I have used several IBM ThinkPads, and of course they are built like tanks, but my ThinkPad was only 150.

 

In the US the difference of the r and t series was the screen rollcage and GPU. The bottom half had the same structure.

 

R400 had the screen rollcage whether it is sold in USA or other countries. GPU option was reduced in NA market in order to prevent R400 eating the T400 sale volume.

Only the R500 that lacked the screen rollcage.
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Z61t screen case (the one that uses the CFRP) does flex a bit due to the lower young's modulus as compared to the T4x laptops (which used Magnesium Alloy, i think T43 was reported to use CFRP, but when i used a pocket knife to make a deep cut on my T43 casing it was silvery white, which suggested it was magnesium alloy).

Furthermore, the screen case of the Z61t uses a different design which decreased torsional stiffness. So there was some sacrifices made when one pursues a prettier design.

 

I knew one of the r series had no screen cage I guess I had my facts wrong. But I will say I never once saw the gpu option other then intel on the r series here in the states.

 

In fact I have used both of them and even had them both in front of me at one point. I dont have them both in front of me at this very moment of posting, but some clear differences is the keyboard.

First of all there is the obvious keyboard flex on the top left side of the T400keyboard. This is true for both before and after the bracing is added to the T400. There is hardly any noticible keyboard flex on the T61.

Second of all even the keyboard material is different. If you are observant, you will notice the T400 black plastic keys are not as dark as the T61 keys. They also appear to be of lower mass density. Also, when typing on them, the T400 keys feel a lot lighter than the T61 keys.

 

So you have based all your negativity towards the t400/t500 in regards to quality and materials on the fact that some of them were shipped with perforated keyboard? That does seem bit biased when you could easily installed the t6x laptop into these t400 and t500 machines.

 

You meant to write T6x keyboard.

 

Right because you are obviously not biased.

First of all not everyone got the T61 keyboard on the T400, either straight from the factory after manufacturing (after they first noticed the design/QC issue prior to adding the bracing as the solution) or as a replacement keyboard sent by tech support to those that have the T400 without the bracing.

We are also debating the issue on build quality. Obviously your standards are lower; or you are not very observant; or have low attention to detail. Either way you cut it, when thinkpads used to have solid keyboards prior to the T400 on the T series, then for the T400 there is a keyboard flex issue, most consumers will attribute this change as a drop in build quality. It seems like your only comeback at this point is to suggest that the bouncy keyboard was an intentional design feature. In this case Im very interested to hear your justification for this feature.

 

Ok, I'll bite. Weight reduction.

Yeah, they botched it. Sometimes that's what happens when you change a design. They botched it, they fixed it, and the subsequent generations didn't have that issue.

I suspect that a lot of the "OMG durability is dropping!" complaints stem from changes in weight. It's a relatively well-known quirk of our cognition that we associate the heft of an object with its strength. Yes, my X200 did indeed feel *much* more fragile than, say, my 600X. I'm quite sure it was actually more durable than the 600X -- but it sure *felt* a lot flimsier due to it being almost half the weight.

The quality control has certainly slipped a bit, and build tolerances are wider than they were 6+ years ago, but that doesn't mean that the notebooks are any less durable.

With the exception of the lid and RAM cover, my T410 is every bit as strong as my T60. It certainly doesn't feel as nice or as high quality, but in terms of actual strength I'd have to say it's actually superior. (Of course my T60 was fully-refurbished and refitted just two months ago, and cost almost three times as much as the T410 when new, so the differences in "fit and finish" certainly make sense.)

Am I biased? Absolutely. But over the years I've owned quite a few ThinkPads, so I've got a fair bit of experience to draw on. I've owned X40s (3), an X61s, an X61, an X60, an X60s, T60s (2), a T60p, a 600E, a 750cs, a 600X, a T43p, an X200, an X200s, a T410, a T400, a T500, and an X300. Of those machines, there's no doubt that the 750cs feels the "solidest" of them all... but it also is a two inch thick brick with a tiny screen, a massive bezel, and enough weight to make it into a piece of exercise equipment. The X200s felt the flimsiest of the bunch -- but it weighed in at ever-so-slightly under three pounds and was a heck of a lot thinner.

 

Yea, 'weight saving' was their official reasoning for the perforated keyboard change but it is basically euphemism for 'cost reduction'. But given the fact that there is also an extra transparent plastic piece being bonded to the perforated T400/T500 keyboard to somehow try to improve the strength, this means there is more weight added back. But that is not the feature I was talking about anyway, I was asking for justification for why the keyboard should be flexible since he seemed to be suggesting there was never a drop in thinkpad quality - which would suggest that all features seen ona thinkpad are the result of a purposeful design intention, so in this case, what was the purpose of a flexible keyboard?

The keyboard base plate for T61 and T400 is fabricated out of aluminum, which already has a pretty low mass density. The weight difference between the T61 keyboard and T400 keyboard is not significant (I've compared the two), but it is a small difference in the technical sense. I think the obvious reason comes down to cost. Plus, they should have thought this through. Weight saving is fine, but it is not ok when you end up sacrificing structural strength to the point of failure to meet the requirement (i.e. a solid keyboard). They should have added rib supports or fasten in more screws to ensure the final notebook has a stiff keyboard or something. None of this was done. Instead they originally left a huge air gap underneat the notebook and also made the keyboard more flexible by removing material, so the end result was the 'bouncy keyboard'.

Anyway I am glad I skipped the T400 generation, but my observation tells me that people started complaining about the drop of thinkpad quality since the introduction of the T400/T500. Now, every once in a while people start topics on the subject matter. Thats why I was saying the T400/T500 was probably the reason that gave Lenovo the bad image that the quality has dropped. THey have improved since which is good, but the T400/T500 era did some damage.

 

I think I'm going to cry :<

 

People have been complaining about 'drop in quality' from the very moment Lenovo took over.

 

You're right on with how the weight affects how I, in any case, perceive durability.

I did torque each of the chassis though, and the X200s bends slightly whereas the R60e didn't.

A question for ZaZ: I see you recommending the Dell Latitudes quite often, how do they (specifically the E4300 and E6400) compare to the ThinkPad T series and X series?

 

The E6400 has a little bit of LCD flex. I was playing with a T410 today, and the LCD flex IMO was about the same. The T6x series are closer to the D series Latitudes, those are built like tanks. My D620 has no LCD flex, only slightly wobbly hinges.

 

So it was cheaper to punch holes in a solid piece of metal and then to bond an additional layer of material to it than it was to... well... to not? Sorry, not buying it.

The flex wasn't the feature. The decreased weight was the feature. The flex was the design flaw that was produced in an effort to make the feature.

Are you seriously suggesting that it is cheaper to perforate a piece of aluminium than it is to not? It's not like they're saving huge amounts of material -- the leftover from any hole-punching would be scrap, not useful material.

I like a good sneaky business story as much as the next guy, but when you're claiming something that conflicts with the engineering team's own statements, I should think you ought to have something more solid than just "it seems obvious to me."

 

Wanna see a tank of a laptop? you should see my vostro 1700. I could use it as a weapon and bash doors down with it and then walk into a coffee shop and surf the web. Toughest notebook I have owned thus far.

 

The scrap gets melted down and remolded into keyboards that get perforated.

I looked at a few pictures of that model just now. Is it almost the same as the XPS M1730? It looks the same only perhaps thinner and with different colors.

I was looking in the Dell Outlet, and it seems like I could get a Latitude E6410 ATG for a decent price. Is it worth opting for the ATG over the standard model, or are they roughly the same?

 

I try not to be biased. My standards are lower? You are the first one to say that, but i guess there is a first for everything.

So you are bashing the whole laptop because the keyboard flex? Well, when i look at quality i look at the entire laptop and not just the keyboard. I give a fair analysis of what things are not up to standards and what is up to standard.

Just like i am not going to tell someone that he/she is not going to university just because they are not good at math.

The cost of manufacturing is billed not just according to the amount of material you use, but also how many different materials and steps it take to assemble a part. That extra transparent plastic ensures that the keyboard still has spill proof resistance, which is quite inititutive when you are using perforated keyboard don't you think?

That is alright, i had to change the top casing of that machine anyway.

 

Not correct. The R400 (and I own one) has the mg roll cage. But it does not have the ATI GPU.

Oops...sorry, I see that Lead_org has already addressed this. I should add that I have found my R400 feels sturdier than my friend's T400. But this is just a feeling...a matter of perception, I guess, so very imprecise.

 

From the Latitudes I've seen I'd say ThinkPads are better, but Dells are better than they used to be. The X201 is in my opinion the best ultraportable on the market. I suppose if you want an optical drive, then the E4300 is perhaps an option. Usually when I recommend a Latitude it's for someone on a tighter budget. Dell does offer some things Lenovo does not. Latitudes have a better standard warranty and Dell's return policy is more lenient. A Latitude from the Dell Outlet offer excellent value. It's tough to get ThinkPads at those prices. When Dell is couponing, it's even better.

 

My University actually lends out dell laptops, the d620/d630. Lets just say this is laptop hell. Screens bend, I've seen a couple broken, missing keys,etc... keep in mind these are University students these laptops have taken a beating. If it was my T410s out there I think it could maybe take a little more than the d620/d630. I baby all my stuff so it'll never experience that type of damage.

 

E4300 is not bad but screen resolution is only wxga and only two USB port. E6400 can be bought for cheaper on the net than equivalent t400.

 

I gotta disagree with you on the part where Dells are better than they used to be. The E series I feel are less durable than the D series they replaced. My mom has an E6400, and I returned my E6410 a couple weeks ago. Sure it had this fancy schmancy tri-metal hinge or something or another, but the plastics used for the palmrest just don't feel as durable as the older D series palmrests.

The D series was often criticized for being excessively big and bulky, and Dell tried to combat this by releasing the slimmer, thinner E series. But that's what made the D series so durable/reliable.

As for Dell being a better value, I gotta give the hats off. Seems like every other week they offer 15-25% off Outlet stuff which already beats Lenovo's Outlet by a great deal. And the Dell Outlet is much better organized than Lenovo's. That and their return policy is very very lenient, almost too lenient. I had my RMA setup in less than 5 minutes, shipping label for RMA was emailed in less than 1 hour. All E series laptops have a standard 3 year depot warranty, Precisions also have all have 3 year warranties.