ThinkPad questions for people who have used many models.

I was talking about the Pentium M era Latitudes specifically, which I think all the newer machines are better than. A newer Latitude is still better than a consumer based machine. You're getting a better service/support and if you don't like it, you can send it back. For $600 a Latitude can offer a lot of value even if it's not as well built as a ThinkPad in an absolute sense.

 

The 4300/4310 seems like a good option. Even if it doesn't hold up like a ThinkPad, it has a standard 3 year warranty. It looks like I can find one for $700-800, and I'll wait for at least a 15% coupon.

I got an automated email from Lenovo saying the box is on its way.

What's a reasonable price to sell the X200s for? Most things about it are specified in my signature, and it comes with two six-cell batteries.

I was reading about the T420 (too expensive to consider realistically, but interesting nonetheless), and read that it can reach thirty hours on battery with the slice battery. How large are these? I've never had a machine with that sort of battery.

 

I've used the new E4300 and E4310, they are all like the newer Latitudes. They changed the palmrest design, IMO it feels less durable than the older ones. I would def wait for a coupon or you can try to call up Dell and bargain down on the phone.

 

Of course it could be. By punching holes in the keyboard backplate you save on aluminum. Polymer can be cheap as raw material and cheap to manufacture.

One of the uses of bonding the polymer piece to the alumnium backplate is to increase the 2nd moment of inertia of the keyboard, i.e. increase flexural strength of the keyboard from bending. It also maintains water drainage as part of the thinkpad features.

Perhaps you dont understand rhetoric. It was rhetorical. Of course it wasnt a feature. I was saying this rhetorically to the other guy, because he seems to want to argue all outcomes of thinkpads are the purposeful intention of the design while refusing to admit to the lowered quality of the T400/T500. One thing wrong with T400/T500 was the keyboard flex, so I asked him (not you) to explain this "feature".

If you can even argue like this its not worth the effort. Basically, yes it is possible to save money, especially when you are at a mass production scale. Aluminum can be recycled.

When something is obvious it is obvious. If somebody doesnt understand why it is obvious to some, then that is their own problem. To what are you referring to?

State and provide reference to what you mean by the engineering team's own statements.

I look at the entire product too. However, the fact is the quality of a product should really come down to the full package. If it is high construction quality it should be built pretty well generally. The fact that anything is not constructed well, automatically means the build quality is not good, even if other parts may be constructed well (e.g. the lid and hinge are very solid in the T400/T500).

It is obvious from this statement you are not an engineer. The aluminum backplate of the keyboard with the perforated holes can be manufactured in one single sheet metal stamp press step. The only added cost is the need to create a new stamp head (a fixed cost) and then you start saving with variable costs afterwards due to low aluminum usage.

 

It's useless to speculate over the motivations behind the perforated keyboard. Perhaps even, it was both for cost saving and weight saving purposes. In any case, it's true that the flex on the keyboard was an oversight on lenovo's part that they've since corrected. My T400 has the revised bracing, and yet there's still decent flex where the left hand types.

I don't think however, that overall quality is decreasing. From generation to generation, I believe we're seeing improvements in features and quality, even if people here don't notice because they're complaining about 16:9.

 

You are claiming that the perforation was done to save money.

The following is from David Hill himself (the lead engineer for the ThinkPad team):

Now either you've got some proof that the guy who is ultimately responsible for the entire ThinkPad product line is lying, or you're simply providing bitter speculation with no evidence other than "it makes sense" [to you].

As an aside, I happen to disagree with his ultimate conclusion (that the new design is comparable to the old), but I don't have any reason to doubt the stated motivation. I believe that, when properly installed and fitted, the original weight-saving design probably *was* comparable in tests. I also believe that QC was too lax to ensure that all the first-generation T400/T500s had a tight-enough fit between parts to allow the new design to succeed.

 

Right. So how did that turn out for the T400/T500?

I don't blindly listen to salesman pitches as I'd like to make my own decisions. Everytime I goto futureshop they offer their in-house warrenty extra, I'd let them finish saying their piece and I kindly deny afterwards.

 

I dont get it....my t400 doesnt flex at all and it has the stock keyboard in it. Sure f I step on it with all 185lbs I am it might flex, but until Im mad enough to do that I still dont see any flex.

 

From my personal experience it would seem that the quality varies between the late-year models. My experience with an X60 tablet has been nothing but joy for about three years straight, it being amazingly solid with zero flex or creaks anywhere on the body to this day. An X200s I sampled was nowhere near as well-built, with a creaking palm rest, flexing keyboard and keyboard bezel, and while it certainly was light and probably was very structurally sound, it felt very flimsy and cheap.

A T410 I tried was better than the X200s in terms of how solid it was, but on this too the palm rest creaked like no tomorrow, and the latch would never sit firmly against the palm rest (it would have a gap when closed.) Later, a T410s that happened to cross my desk was exactly the opposite: solid feel, no creaking, no flexing, no battery wobble (by design,) and zero play when closed.

Most recently a certain AFFS-modded X200 came into my possession, and in my opinion it has the best build quality out of every one of the above-mentioned ThinkPads, save for the X60 tablet. Whether it was out of chance or if it was just a better overall design, for some reason it continues to impress every time I use it.

Now, the only thing I don't have to add to my comparison is samplings of the different machines of the same model. But from my own experience, it seems that I can't really draft a pattern: the higher-end T410s was more robust than the T410, but the cheaper X200 was far superior to the higher-end X200s. Although maybe that IS the point: there was no contest with the X60 tablet...

 

That's disconcerting. I've read about many people's experiences with allegedly well built X200 models (I've never handled one myself), and maybe I should just get one of those.

I was checking out the new X220, and I found the slice battery to be appealing. Will that fit the X220 exclusively, or will it also work on previous generation X series ThinkPads? What other small business machines have slice battery options (preferably ThinkPads or Dells)?

 

I don't think that slice will work with any other model, just like the x220 but someone correct me if I am wrong. Will not work with older x series ThinkPads.

Dell offer slice on certain models. E4310, E6410, though Dells have much more broad compatibility, their pricing is nowhere near Lenovo's and do not offer nearly as much juice as Lenovo's slice.

 

It was confirmed by several Lenovo employees that the slice battery would only work with the X220 - previous X-series laptops are not supported.

 

That's disappointing, but thanks for the confirmation.

I got distracted on the Dell Outlet just now, and found some good prices on XPS M1730s (generations come and go so fast, it's hard to keep in mind that those are getting old now). I payed $1200 for mine at one point with a coupon, and now there are ones with 8800s (I wouldn't buy a second one with 8700s) for significantly less than I payed the first time around. I might get a second one of those. I am the LAN party.

 

Try a T61 keyboard in your T400, you'll notice the very obvious difference. My machine even came with the reinforcement plate they added later for the stock keyboard, and still not even close.

 

I wasn't saying it worked well, just that the guy who leads the entire ThinkPad engineering team published -- in an official capacity, mind you -- a statement which directly contradicts yours. Now I'm not usually one to pick sides ("on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog", and all that), but I can't help but point out that I have a heck of a lot more faith in his statements than yours no matter how riled up you may get.

I think most parties involved agree that the execution on the R400/R500/T400/T500 keyboard left a lot to be desired. I'm not contesting that. What I am contesting is your claim that it was done for cost savings. That contradicts official sources and, in the absence of proof, appears to be little more than a blind assumption.

The only pattern I can spot is the density of the machines, i.e. the size/weight ratio. My theory: the smaller and heavier ones feel more "solid". The lighter machines (like the X200s) don't. The X60 tablet is the smallest machine on your list, but also one of the heaviest subnotebooks, hence it feels quite solid. The X200s is the largest subnotebook on your list, but also the lightest, hence it feels flimsy.

For the record, I've owned a couple of those machines as well (several X6x series machines, an X200, an X200s, a T410, etc.) and the above is absolutely true for me.

I posted a rather vitriolic rant against the X200s over at ThinkPads.com in which I bemoaned Lenovo's drop in quality, cheap materials, etc... all the usual lines. Of course I did that before I actually... uh... used the machine for a while. A few months after that, when I'd used it as my primary laptop for quite some time, flown across the Atlantic with it a couple times, thrown it into bags, dropped things on it, etc., it was pretty clear that my initial supposition (that it was "flimsy") was pure bunk, and that it was engineered well enough to be quite durable despite its light weight.

I don't think that the engineering prowess or durability has decreased since IBM's ownership of the brand. The only decline that I do believe has taken place is in QC, most likely as a result of trying to make the laptops more affordable. The "fit and finish" isn't as consistent as it was under IBM's oversight, and as a result the manufacturing tolerances have widened quite a bit leading to creaking palmrests, etc. Not to the sort of thing that harms real-world durability, true, but annoying all the same.

With all that said, if the difference between a $2500 notebook and a $1200 is that I can make a bit of plastic creak if I push on it, I'll go with the latter.

 

You are missing the point entirely. Reality is more important than any salesman's or PR pitch. If you want to be a simpleton then thats your prerogative. The fact the keyboard on the T400/T500 in reality WASNT solid says a lot more than what any company exec has to say on the matter.

You mean most parties agree it leaves _little_ to be desired.

Just because your profession or educational background is perhaps not in a technical engineering/scientific field thus rendering you a simpleton/layman on the matter, means you may lack the ability to understand certain concepts, but it doesnt mean the concepts/ideas are not true. All it means is you cant see or understand it.

Its like trying to describe spin states of particles to the layman - often futile because it is perceived as physical 'inertial' like spinning. A layman is a layman.

So, in this case, because you perhaps cannot grasp industrial manufacturing and economic concepts - you then fail to understand the likihood that reducing the use of aluminum, offset by added use of a little polymer, can greatly decrease operational costs especially at the mass production scale.

 

Im sure the t61 keyboard may feel stiffer, but unless I pound on mine with a hammer it doesnt flex at all. Sure if I put ALOT of force on the left side it flexes a tiny bit but thats an amount of force thats 100 times more then real world use. Plus I like the feel of my keys.

 

I suppose this sums it up. I'm sorry to have bothered you so.

Just curious, but do you have one of the models with the added chassis support(s)?

 

I can't say much for the ThinkPad R-series or the older T-series (T61 etc..) but my previous ThinkPad T400s had it's case swapped two times because it got small crack in the lower left part on the base, the part where you normally rest your left hand during use. I could never tell what caused this crack because it wasn't a result of a sudden drop or any other kind of accident so my conclusion was that it happened from normal usage which disturbed me quite a lot.

When it happened a second time within a period of just a few months I got the entire thing replaced with a W510 for a fee and this thing feels more sturdy than the T400s which never felt that solid around the keyboard if you ask me.

 

Frankly, when I first got my R400, there were a number of issues: (1) palmrest flex (2) Keyboard flex (3) visible movement of palmrest from the base (4) a lot of creaking. I thought that thses were unacceptable for a "new" machine - I know that the R400 when I bought it last year around this time was "old" but it was a brand new machine. I expressed my displeasure to Lenovo. It took some time, but they replaced the machine. I still had problems with the keyboard to which I drew their attention. It was the perforated keyboard. Lenovo/IBM replaced it with a solid-backplate keyboard at no charge. Since this replacement took place, my machine has been rock solid. No creaks of any kind. Keyboard is firm with no flex. And, while I do take care of my laptops, I have been traveling quite a bit with this R400 and it has behaved magnificently.

My conclusion was that I had a poor example of a machine the first time around (a lemon perhaps?). But the replacement machine was just fine - much better than my previous Acer, Sony Viao and a Toshiba.

 

All you need to do is type on the T400 keyboard to feel the flex at every keystroke, no hammer required.

The $30 to get a T60/T61 keyboard off ebay is probably the best money one can spend in upgrades for a T400.

 

Interesting, how are things today? Have Lenovo gone back to using the solid keyboards on their new line of ThinkPad notebooks?

 

Yep, they fixed it and more in the current style keyboard introduced with the T400s. I tried a T410s at CDW and the current keyboards are absolutely rock solid. Keystroke is quite a bit stiffer than Thinkpad keyboards used up till the T400/X201. Some don't like this, but I think it provides even more positive feedback.

Afaik, the T400 and T500 were the only models to ever suffer from significant keyboard flex.

 

Well its always good to hear a success story. Mine doesnt exhibit any of those issues with the perforated keyboard thankfully, but I will admit I have toyed with the idea of getting a t61 keyboard since everyone says they are better. Id hate to abuse the system and complain to get a free t61 keyboard. Nah Ill stick with this one.

 

Like I said mine doesnt have that issue at all. Even after over 2 years with the rig I dont have flex with real world use. But I will admit I have thought about a t61 keyboard as I heard the typing experience was different. While I love the t400 keyboard I am very interested in seeing a more old fashioned thinkpad key travel.

 

Yeah, the T400s/T410s mechanical has a widely-known manufacturing defect that causes it to be highly prone to stress fractures in a couple spots.

They've redesigned the chassis with the T420s to address that, and IIRC have a replacement FRU for the T400s/T410s that has been reinforced to help prevent the problem on machines of those generations.

It's a shame, though, since the T400s is a quite nice design otherwise.

Not quite true. Actually one of IBM's ThinkPads (yes, the much vaunted IBM) suffered quite badly from it. IIRC it was one of the 7xx series (back in the 90s), though I'd have to check to be sure. I believe they offered a replacement program for the affected keyboards, much as Lenovo did for the T400/T500 series.

Agreed. I absolutely love the keyboard on my T410 now that I'm used to it. There's less travel than the T6x/X6x keyboards that I was used to, the activation is much crisper, and the activation depth is much closer to the bottom, but none of those things make it bad. In fact they make it quite good, though quite a bit different from the previous generations' design.

 

This is very true. Actually, the flex on my T21 is downright horrible, and that's with a new keyboard I put on it a little while ago(I use it only for emergencies/nostalgia now). My T500 as well as the T400 I just sold a couple of weeks ago both were rock-solid in comparison.

 

That is more of a subjective rather than an objective assessment.

Not an engineer? Let me explain why this statement is a fallacious one. There are various types of engineers, such as:

1. Biomedical engineer
2. Biochemical engineer
3. Civil engineer (which encompasses geotechnical, hydraulic, structural, etc).
4. Chemical engineer/petroleum engineer
5. Mechanical/Manufacturing engineers
6. Material engineer
7. Electrical engineer
8. Project engineer
9. System engineer

So are you saying that just because you are an engineer of some field, you automatically have to understand everything about stamp and die design for manufacturing? For your information i did do chemical engineering, so i am an engineer.

Also, not all dies cost the same, the complexity of pattern would also change the initial setup cost. While, adding the extra plastic layer to the perforated keyboard also adds an extra step to the manufacturing process, which adds cost.

Given that you are claiming that other people are not engineers and such, then you must be in the know. So maybe you would like to explain to us, how much financial savings that producing the perforated keyboard will give to Lenovo.

 

I agree. And, I when got the KB replaced at my end, I put in a formal work-order and also offered to pay for the part, as per their policies. Lenovo/IBM were kind enough to replace the part free of cost. One of the reasons why this happened, I think (more precisely, I am guessing) is because by that time the Managing Director of Lenovo and the Global Customer Service VP had got involved in my specific case.