ThinkPad with decent LCD? (IPS ; Flexview)

I'm sick and tired of my T61's crappy TN panel. One second the image is great, the other second when you get your head a inch up or down you see zombies on your screen instead of normal people.

Is there anyway to get a current generation ThinkPad with an IPS panel in it, besides the X200 Tablet? At first I don't care about tablets and 2nd: that's only 1280x800.

 

There are a very small number of IPS/FFS screens currently available. Several tablets (including the x61 and x200) use IPS/FFS displays. However, I believe the last non tablet offered with an IPS screen was the T60P Flexview, and that is a little old.

You may want to consider buying regular x series and putting a tablet display into it.

This blog post details putting an SXGA+ (1400x1050) IPS tablet dispaly into a x61s. However, this is a complicated procedure and requires soldering a custom jumper harness and using a hacked BIOS.

It may be easier to put an x200 Tablet display (285 nit, LED, 1280x800) into an x200 or x200s. Apparently these should be compatible with no change to the jumper harness or BIOS. I have not seen any screens for the x200 tablet appear for resale yet, but apparently this Fujitsu screen is the same thing.

I fully understand your concern for screen quality. I had an x200 (non tablet) for a few weeks before becoming dissatisfied with the screen. I ultimately replaced it with an x200 Tablet because I successfully sold myself on the tablet features (landscape/portrait mode, digitizer for inking/graphics editing, and better speakers/microphones than the x200).

 

Thanks for you answers!

Buying a X200 + a X200 Tablet LCD would be an option. Or even a X200s. But at those pricepoints I could just as well jump for Tablet and take the extra functionality as a bonus.

The T60P would be a downgrade in size (hehe, bigger = downgrade ), weigth, performance and batterylie. Unfortunately.

Aren't there any 14" IPS/FFS panels? Or 12" with a higher resolution? I absolutely hate my current TN, but I also hate the lack of vertical pixels, and I already got the 1440x900 flavor. I mean: come on, that's not even twice the amount of vertical pixels I have on my camera's LCD. It's a shame they stopped making 4:3 notebooks

Having had a Samsung S-PVA as my worst desktop LCD I knew that TN was crap. But I didn't realize it was that bad untill I got my T61 delivered. It even sucks compared to a ThinkPad T22 (the LCD).

 

I don't know if there are any 14" IPS/FFS panels available. To the best of my knowledge IBM/Lenovo only ever offered IPS/FFS panels on the 12.1" tablets, and the 15" T42, T43, and T60 (The 14" SXGA screen was a standard TN panel). I don't know if anyone else EVER offered a IPS/FFS panel in a non-tablet notebook (this includes Apple who has frequently used IPS for their desktop displays).

It sounds to me like the screen you want is a 14" SXGA+ IPS Flexview. However, I have never seen this offered. The closest is the 12.1" SXGA+ from the X60/61 Tablet. You can get this screen aftermarket, although I have no idea what you would put it into if not the x61s.

I also agree that the quality of notebook LCDs has gone down. I had a 14.1" T40 for 5 years with a standard TN panel and it was fine. However, the 12.1" WXGA on the x200 was awful by comparison. It was bright but it had the tiniest viewing angle I have ever seen (only about 5° on the vertical looked okay) and it was just unacceptable.

The x200 Tablet and its screen is fantastic though. I really appreciate the added functionality and screen quality. I basically did buy it for a screen and took the tablet functionality as a bonus. At first I was unsure of its usefulness but I have grown to like the tablet input (Vista is surprisingly good with pen based navigation and script to text).

However, if you don't want/need the tablet functionality there is something to be said for an x200 or x200s with a tablet screen. The x200 + IPS would be less expensive (by a small amount), more powerful, and a shade smaller/lighter than the x200 Tablet. An x200s + IPS would cost as much if not more than an x200 Tablet, but it would be substantially lighter/smaller and offer superior battery life (the 9 cell has a much higher WHr rating than the 8 cell).

You may also get a slightly better screen experience with a modified x200(s) than you would with an x200 Tablet. The x200 Tablet has a very minor amount of grain caused by the digitizer, and the framless cover (basically a built in glass screen protector) does eventually obscure the picture (you have to get all the way above or to the side so that you can't even see the screen anymore though).

 

All I have to say is I feel your pain. Gonna be a while before my T60p gets replaced.

 

Does anyone here know if the panel on the X200S and the panel on the X200T are the same? Are they both IPS?

 

they are not the same.

neither one are IPS.   the X200s is TN and the X200T is AFFS+.

 

Isn't AFFS+ supposed to be better than IPS? I know it's patent technology from Boe-Hydis.

http://www.vertexlcd.com/technology.htm

 

Thanks for the link

 

So I take it that the new X200T has the best panel on the market or at least in the Thinkpad series?? Is it that much better than the X200 or X200S?

 

IT IS THAT MUCH BETTER. It is much brighter, color correct, and has an infinitely better vertical viewing angle than the x200.

I have not seen an x200s for comparison. However, the x200 Tablet display should be a bit brighter (285 nits vs. 250), color correct, and with a much better viewing angle. It should be noted though that the x200s has a higher resolution (1440x900 vs. 1280x800) and the lid should be much thinner (the LCD assembly on the x200 Tablet is pretty thick and it lacks the Thinklight).

To the best of my knowledge AFFS+ is an advanced version of IPS. FFS stands for Fringe Field Switching and is an attempt to improve response time (this was the one downside, besides price, of early IPS displays), viewing angle, and transmittance. AFFS+ is an advanced version of FFS that is supposed to use less power and also has a special coating and "improved internal reflection" that makes it useable in direct sunlight (I tried my tablet outdoors, at noon, on a very bright day and it was perfectly useable). Here is Boe Hydis' AFFS+ concept and explanation.

 

Ah, and what have we got here:

http://www.boehydis.com/eng/03_prod...Name=TabletPC&openBox=1&subBox=1&openSubBox=0

And the big deal breaker:

Most others in that list are 25ms, what probably compares to the current 4ms (marketing) monitors. (It's not just the viewing angles where the big majority is cheating and lying.)

Ah, and here is the X61 Tablet screen? >
http://www.boehydis.com/eng/03_products/productKind.asp

A shame Lenovo dropped that format. Laptops getting less deep due to widescreen is a big lie, they just get wider. My 14" T61 W has almost the same footprint as a T60 15", due to the protuding battery.

My dream laptop would be a X200s with a 12" 1400x1050 AFFS+ screen

The whole widescreen idea stinks anyway: we went from 1024x768 to 1280x800 on the laptops; big deal . For the higher resolutions we went down from 1400x1050 to 1440x900, but the 15 inchers got from 1600x1200 to 1920x1200. I still don't get it. 14" is just a so much better size then 15.4" If they would just make it 1680x1050
On the desktop the most sold resolution got from 1024x768 to 1280x1024 to 1680x1050 and now to 1920x1080? And a lot of people still keep that scrollwheel going, rolling themselves into RSI . A lot of 16:10 ads were corrupt (I won't tell who made those ads Samsung). And look what happens with the 16:9 scam for PC monitors: again they lie and they cheat and go big on the psychological effects. Unfortunately there is a big group of people who buy into it. Just like HDMI for PC monitors (why hell would you want HDMI on your PC monitor?????). And voila, all the computer forums see topics with "[advice] new monitor (..) demands: minimal 22", must have HDMI (...) for computer use only. Whenever I see such a topic I ask them why they want HDMI. And apparently they don't know. They just want it .

A few weeks ago I was joking with a few friends that the secretary of Health care should add a large tax to TN panels since they cause more RSI then IPS panels. When you have to keep your eyes on exact the same position to be able to not see zombies on your screen causes a lot of problems in the long run. Then with the added tax IPS panels would be competitive in price too and TN would die within a year

And Lenovo with their stupid arguments of "we won't use that, since there is only one supplier" ...
Well, what about being the first to use it. If everyone would say "I won't use it, because there is only one supplier", then it would never get into the market .

Just how difficult would it be for Lenovo the make an additional choice for the X200 / X200s for that AFFS+ screen? It's a shame nobody comes up with some kind of Centrino sticker for IPS / AFFS(+) panels.

If the lid on the X200 Tablet is thicker then on the X200(s), then it would also be impossible to switch screens, right? Just like you could put a 2048x1536 screen into a R50, but no into a T60

I don't get the whole HD hype neither. "I want to get the cheapest 1080P monitor to watch my new Blu-Ray movies", heck you get some TN crap from Wal Mart

Over a year ago I bought a Dell 2007FP (1600x1200) IPS desktop monitor for around €370
Around that same time a friend bought a Samsung 245B (1920x1200) TN for €410. He was happy he paid less per pixel. Well, I'm quite satisfied that I paid 40 bucks less and that I got 1.92M good pixels instead of 2.3M bad pixels and that I can see white in the center as black and at the same time see white at the top AND at the bottom . His "big" point about not being able to watch 1080P native got busted too. As far as I know he never watched a 1080P movie either. Blu-Ray is way too expensive and restrictive with it's infantile HDCP and 720P look just fine and downloads a lot faster.
Note: Where I live it's completely legal to download movies. Only uploading is not allowed.

I'm just so frustrated that we simply don't get a choice in it. Some idiot at Samsung decides he wants 16:10 instead of 4:3 and puts millions of marketing on it and his 16:10 now dominates the market. Why...?

It's also quite strange to see a lot of good monitor (IPS) receiving lower ""customer ratings"" then the cheap TN crap. Apparently the cheapy's are happy with anything and the guys buying IPS are serious and don't rate it always 100%. What I also hate to see are those comments of "This 226BW (22" TN) is a lot better then my 17" CRT [unquote: 12 years old], I rate it 10/10". Heck what a comparison .

 

There was a rumor of a 14.1" SXGA+ IPS screen, but I think it never got out of the design phase. It's too bad they don't offer some better panels. I think there's enough of a market for it to make it worthwhile. We keep buying them, but don't really have any other options. I certainly would have paid a premium for it. If you truly don't like your T61s panel I'd suggest selling it and picking up a T60 with an IPS. Some still have warranty, which means they could be upgraded. The Marketplace forum on ThinkPads.com is a good place to look for them beside eBay and they're usually a little cheaper there. Performance wise the difference between a Merom Core 2 Duo and what you got now is very small.

 

On the Lenovo Website for ordering the X200t there are 2 options for the screens:

1)12.1" WideView SuperBright LED backlit WXGA panel
2) 12.1" MultiView MultiTouch + MultiView LED backlit WXGA panel

which of these 2 is the better one? What are the differences?

 

I just found this..

ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pcinstitute/psref/tabook.pdf

If I understand this correctly is that the better screen is not as bright.

 

I have option one (LED Widewview Superbright) and it is fantastic.

Option two is based on the same technology. However, it has a second touch layer. This allows you to control it with your finger. However, this comes at the expense of reduced brightness and increased grain. I believe this option also lacks the frameless border.

If you don't have a need for finger input (you most likely don't as the pen input is far superior to an imprecise finger) I would recommend the 12.1" WideView SuperBright LED ( Active Digitizer Only).

 

Thanks for the tip What are the specs on yours? What HDD did you get with it as well?

 

Can't you read his signature

 

Does any one know the cost of purchasing the 12.1" WideView SuperBright LED backlit WXGA panel from Lenovo?

 

Thanks, I was spacen out

 

At least $400 is my guess. If you want to do the retrofit yourself you may consider buying the LED backlit panel from the Fujitsu T2010. The T2010 uses the same BOE-Hydis LED backlit panel that Lenovo is using in their tablet line. Just type in "T2010 LCD" on ebay and you can see a few of those. Me? Still loving my X61T with SXGA+ Superview screen to death and is not willing to go to a lower resolution any time soon

 

But will it even be possible to fit that panel into the less thick X200(s) lid?

EDIT: Hmm:

http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/39173.jpg

vs

http://www.tabletpcreview.com/assets/36927.jpg

 

The lid on the x200 Tablet is definitely thicker than the x200(s). However, I don't think this automatically rules out compatibility.

The x200 Tablet has several things in that lid:

1280x800 AFFS+ LCD
Active (pen) digitizer layer
Passive (finger) digitizer layer (if so equipped)
Frameless border (basically a thin sheet of plexiglass a few mm above the LCD with a border [helps with writing and basically a built in screen protector]).
Tablet input buttons, dual array microphone, fingerprint reader, second power button.


If you were attempting this mod on the x200(s) you would only be using the LCD (you would remove the touch layer, and never have the frameless border). So it should be possible. However, if IPS/AFFS+ panels are physically thicker than TN panels, you may have a problem.

 

Ahh I did not think about the thickness issue.
Another question. Does anyone know where a x200s lcd wxga+ can be found and how much?

 

the tablet display will likely fit after both the writing surface and digitizer have been removed.   i haven't reviewed the X200T's display whitepaper yet but i can't imagine it being any more difficult than cramming an SXGA+ display in an X61s.

the drawback is that you're still left with only 1280x800.   since resolution stays the same going from an X200 to an X200T, you might as well just buy the tablet and enjoy the features and warranty.

any other option could result in an expensive mass of plastic and metal if things go wrong.

 

Exactly

 

The X200 has a larger battery

And the X200s has a LV CPU. Dreammachine!

 

the tablets have LV processors, too

 

I have the above links and am still wondering how much of a difference there is between the X200s and the X200T to the human eye when looking at the screen directly.

I am debating between the X200s and X200t. Screen, Speakers and Microphone quality are what I am comparing as the other specs are pretty much the same.

 

Oops.

But the 8 cell battery of the X200 Tablet is not as large as the 9 cell of the X200s (in Whr).

 

If you can look directly at it, the screen on the x200s is probably fine. It will be very bright and has great resolution (1440x900). However, the x200 Tablet is brighter (285 nits for x200t vs. 250 for x200s vs. 200 for x200)has much better contrast ratio (500:1 for x200t vs. 300:1 for x200s vs. 250:1 for x200), and superior color accuracy/stability from any angle. There is a minor amount of grain on the tablet though, this is caused by the digitizer layer and wouldn't be a problem if you create some weird modified version (tablet display in x200 ).

The tablet also has the best microphone of the x200 series. The x200(s) uses a basic microphone that is okay for VOIP and similar applications as long as you can control background noise. The x200 Tablet uses a dual array microphone with an input about 2 inches left and 2 inches right of the tablet screen. This is for noise canceling, and helps make speech more intelligible in rooms with a moderate amount of background noise.

All The x200 models have downward firing speaker(s) at the very front. This is less than ideal placement for a laptop (they fire into your lap and are muffled), but it does allow the speakers to function even with the lid closed (docked or in slate mode). The x200 has a single underpowered (1 watt) speaker and it is thoroughly inadequate for anything beyond system beeps (headphones work just fine though). I have seen conflicting reports on the x200s. It also has only a single speaker, according to the tabook it is only 0.5 watts (1/2 the x200), but according to Lenovo's x200s announcement, it actually is 3 db louder than the the x200 (equates to 2 watts), although it is still mono. The x200 Tablet uses stereo speakers (2 watts total), these are still on the weak side, but adequate for VOIP, and light music or video playback; I would say this is about the best you are going to get on a Business notebook (only the poorly assembled consumer notebooks have good speakers).

Overall, I would say the x200 Tablet is much better than the x200(s) for multimedia features and screen quality (it also has a webcam and WWAN). However, you have to factor weight into this equation as well. The 8 cell battery on the x200 Tablet is not much more powerful than the 6 cell from the x200s, and is much weaker than the 9 cell from the x200s. Therefore you could get a x200s with a good 6 cell battery and a decent (bright and high res, albeit not IPS) screen at 2.7 pounds (compare to 3.9 pounds for an x200 Tablet). I don't mind the weight as I used a 5 pound T40 for years, but it is also a key difference between the x200s and x200 Tablet.

 

Thanks for the detailed and kind reply. Is it true that ifyou get the display with a builit webcam that the panel or screen is different?? On the X200s and X200t are the display the same with and without the built in webcam?

 

The x200s does not offer a webcam (at least in the US). I heard at one point that an x200s with webcam and CCFL (not LED) screen was available in Europe, however I would tend to advise against this model (the LED is one of the main reasons to get an x200s vs. an x200).

I don't think the webcam has any effect on the screen of the x200 or x200 Tablet. In both cases it is fitted into the bezel above the screen.

However, the webcam may cost you one of your wireless antennas. Some of the earlier Thinkpads had a 3x3 array without a webcam or a 2x3 array with a webcam. This most likely doesn't matter for most people in most situations. However, if you are buying the Intel Wi-Fi 5300 for the extra antennas, you may find that the webcam equipped models don't actually have all of them. Incidentally, I got the Intel Wi-FI 5100 in mine (1x2 antenna array) and have been satisfied by its range, transfer speed, and low power usage.

 

Was just looking at your signature for your laptop specs and it is pretty much what I am looking at. I plan on getting a Memoright GT 64GB SSD and installing it after. Are you happy with Windows Vista or would reccommend something else such as XP or the 32bit version instead of the 64 bit version?

I was going to get the Intel 5300 and the webcam but wasn't sure if that would be good or bad to do? How does the quality of your webcam look on your screen? I take it you have the touch screen one, correct?

Again, many thanks for your replies

 

I have the ACTIVE DIGITIZER ONLY (285 nit LED Frameless). The touch model reduces brightness, increases grain, and I didn't think it was worth the extra money. I also don't want to get fingerprints all over my screen.

The webcam looks decent. It is fixed focus and doesn't have an internal light, but it is reasonably adjustable (brightness, color, contrast) and works well enough. Better to get it and not use it, than need it and not have it (its' off when not actively being used so there is no real downside [possible exception of # of wireless antennas]).

There's nothing wrong with the 5300, I just thought the 5100 was adequate (I haven't found any problems) and chose to save $20.

I recommend that you get Windows Vista because it is GREAT WITH TABLETS. Handwriting recognition is surprisingly good, you can have checkboxes on all icons (select multiple to copy, delete, etc. without the Ctrl button), pen flicks (customizable in all 8 directions) are also a great way to perform basic actions (I use PgUp, PgDn, Delete, Enter, Undo, Cut, Copy, and Paste).

However, unless you plan on using 4GB or more of RAM you may be better severed by Vista 32 bit. I haven't found many compatibility problems with Vista 64, but I have found some. The OneNote 2007 printer driver does not work with Vista 64, the Tablet experience pack (Ink Desktop and Ink Flashcards) also don't work, both of these are kind of nice tablet applications for XP or Vista 32, but they don't work for me.

 

How hard would it be for Lenovo to offer the X200 Tablet screen as an option on the X200(s)? Not hard at all, is my guess.

 

It's not hard, it is a perception of limited demand (and thus possible return for them).

IPS/FFS displays are a frequent topic of discussion on the Lenovo blog Inside the Box. There are a handful of enthusiasts that really like (and would pay a premium for) IPS displays.

However, Lenovo does not currently offer them on normal models because - they only had a single source for IPS displays (claim it was hard to procure a reliable supply for the T60P Flexview and x60T SXGA+), LCD glass companies don't want to make IPS displays at 15" or less, no one else offers notebooks with IPS displays, and corporations (Lenovo's bread and butter) by and large won't pay a premium for screen quality. This unfortunately leaves enthusiasts to make do with less or pursue extreme options (e.g. putting tablet displays in standard notebooks).

Conversely, the x200 Tablet (as well as the x60/x61) do offer IPS/FFS displays. I believe there are two principal reasons for this.

1) Tablets are frequently used in portrait mode. This makes the vertical viewing angle (awful on TN panels) into the horizontal viewing angle. Poor horizontal viewing angles are a serious problem and IPS displays are one of the better ways to deal with this problem in a rotated display.

2) Other manufacturers of tablets (e.g. Fujitsu) also use IPS tablet panels. Competition is an effective means of inducing action. When no one competes on quality, you have little incentive to be much better than them (where else are people going to go?). However, when they use high quality displays, you have to use something good as well to keep up sales.

 

The problem with Lenovo claiming that they only have one source for it, is Lenovo itself. They could buy as many panels from that source as possible and simply say: "If you want this IPS panel, you've got to wait a bit longer"

But the choose the lame action saying: "Hmm, there is not enough supply, we 'll drop it"

I mean: There is something wrong about that. If customers want something badly and that thing is in short supply, you could raise the price to a point where there would be just as much supply as demand.

If you watched the 8800GT : it came in at a perfect pricepoint, every gamer wanted one. Heck there was more demand then supply. Retailers simply added an additional €30 to the profitmargin and they would still sell in no-time. They didn't say: hmm, we can't keep up with demand, we'll stop selling what we can get.

If Lenovo, Dell, HP, Toshiba, Fujitsu and the like all say: "There is only one source, so we won't do it", then there is never gonna be a second source for sure.

It would be so much better if they would just add a AFFS+ option to the X200(s). Just one more screen. We already have four flavors of TN, right? Just someone in China picking up a different panel and putting that in.

 

I started a similar thread recently on the Lenovo forums.

As for competition, over the weekend, I saw a Sony Vaio AW laptop with an 18.4" 1920x1080 screen at Best Buy and it looked decent and had really good viewing angles including vertical angles. I wonder what kind of screen technology it uses. I looked in the Sony subforum here, and the sonystyle website and it seems like the one I saw wasn't even the top model. The higher end AW models are LED and cover the full Adobe RGB gamut.

I like Thinkpads because of the Trackpoint and because my dad is retired from IBM, so I have the EPP discount, but I'm interested in seeing what other companies come out with to compete with those Sonys. I hope Sony starts also putting out similar quality smaller screens. I'm not sure that there is a large enough market for $1,650-3,000+ laptops to spur vigorous competition.

My computer, a 2002 IBM A31 with 1400x1050 IPS screen is still alive after I got the backlight replaced. I'm not replacing it with anything that has a lesser screen, so I'm still waiting. Maybe in a year or two, I'll jump ship to Sony and get one of those monster-sized laptops after Windows 7 and USB 3.0 comes out.

 

Does anyone know what the replacement screen for the x200s is?
If I wanted to stick the x200s screen into the x200 is it just plug and play?

 

Trust me when I say that the amazing screens on Sony laptops right now are already available in smaller size. The SZ and Z series has 13.3" LCD that is nothing short of amazing. Also the TT series has 11.1" LCD that is also amazing. In short, all Sony laptops have the best TN screen available on the market.
However, don't lose hope in Lenovo. I have a sony TZ, and the screen is lacking compared to the screen of the X200s. It is also quite good compared to my other screens for T60 and T61. The vertical angle is also improved from the T60 and T61 I have.

 

I would have done the same, but I'm a software developer and absolutely needed a good development machine now, so I got a T400. Disappointed with the screen quite a lot.

My last machine, also, is a 2002 A31 with 1400x1050 IPS screen; it's every bit as good as my ViewSonic vp2030b desktop monitor, and I really miss it when working on the washed-out look of the T400's screen (despite the rave reviews some have given it).

My dream machine will have nahalem, USB 3, top-quality panel, etc. as you mention.

- Tim

 

I'm in Taipei but it looks like I will have to order my X200 Tablet from the US as they don't have this model in Taiwan, Singapore or Hong-Kong. Kind of odd as to why these specs are only available in the US

 

There was a thread started over at the lenovo forums talking about a group buy for a T or W series Thinkpad with an IPS screen. Wouldn't that be nice if there was enough interest.

 

That's contradictory mate

TN is per definition bad, so a 'good' TN is still 'the lesser of the evil'


@Mandrake: Yeah, that would be great. A 4:3 one would be even better.

 

I'm interested in further research into whether the Fujitsu T2010 screen, bought as a separate replacement part on eBay, may fit into my new X200s with the slimline lid, if the replacement screen's activie digitizer and protective glass were removed.

Can anyone recommend a laptop repair place specializing in custom screen replacement, whose technical support may be interested in determining the feasibility and execution of such a replacement?

I'm located in Toronto, but am prepared to send it anywhere in North America.

 

I can't give you a specific recommendation - but if you are serious about doing this, I can point you in the right direction. I used to hang out at www.mp3car.com which is a community of people who like to integrate computers into their cars. There is a lot of innovation required by this community to overcome the challenges of in-car computing. One of the main areas of work is displays that are visible in direct sunlight, wide viewing angles, and custom work to get them to fit into a certain nook in the dash so that it looks like it came from the factory that way. I know that there are a number of companies mentioned in the forum that are involved in fabricating custom displays, retrofitting more powerful backlights, anti-glare coatings, and so on. There is also lots of info on where to acquire bare LCD panels. You might try poking around there and see what you can find.