Thinkpad W320 The mouse that Roars!

I do CAD, graphics, and writing. I want a small light notebook with a decent graphics chip in it in a switchable arraignment.

A W520, at its weight is too heavy for me to lug around. I don't always need to lug around a DVD drive, and that's wasted space. Oddly in the field, doing CAD, it's been my observation that the processor speed is even more important than screen real estate.

What comes to mind also, is when I was reverse engineering something, and I was moving the computer to places close to where I was measuring. Having a large computer on a workbench is a liability because of its footprint.

Express 32 card slots are good for those people who do CNC.

The X220, has a good dual core, but it's 7mm drive is a very regrettable choice. It means that the X220 cannot be my main system without swapping file sets, which I find very time consuming, as well as a creating a backup nightmare. Big sigh.

I would still like a switchable dedicated graphic chip for CAD, for when I get home and can drive a large monitor. It would be cool if the power manager could also automatically switch to the dedicated unit given whether or not the computer is plugged in, say a new type of power scheme: plugged in = GPU on.

I would also like a bigger trackpad than the X220. Oddly I like the X120e keyboard even better than my aging T61p. I like the bigger trackpad as well.

The IPS screens are good, but 8-bit color depth is most important. I cannot stand the fact that the best laptop computers don't have as good color depth as the cheapest desktop displays. 120 Hz refresh would be good for nVidia glasses.

The same computer would also be good for videographers and photographers to check their work.

The extra a fan, battery and heatsink for a quad-core could be placed into a 13" form-factor as long as there is DVD drive.

It's occurs to me that I've been asking for almost the computer for 2 years now. Do I have to look around for an angel to help me start your competitor?

 

I'm thinking you may be one of the few who is looking.

My guess would be that most pro CAD/workstation users need a larger screen than 13" with a higher resolution. There are also design limitations with a 13" unit regarding heat dissipation that make what you want difficult to produce.

 

The number of people who want that notebook is probably is very small.

 

As I said, I do CAD, design and Photoshop, and this is what I want. Having a slow processor makes it harder to draw than if you need to do more with the menus, or pan around more.

Because of its size, a 15 inch laptop is a challenge to even set down on a bench.

The x220 will be popular for 2 reasons, the first is battery life, but people would not pay what people will for the x220 if it were not as powerful as it is. The X220 will be a strong seller for Lenovo, and if it weren't powerful people would buy a netbook instead.

It's seems reasonable that a small powerful laptop would sell.

 

A small super powerful laptop seems way more likely for the portable gaming segment. I.e. the M11x with the ULV CPU and a powerful GPU. Workstations tend to be desktops or large desktop-replacement machines.

You can also only cram so much into a small case before heat becomes an issue, unless you want a two inch thick laptop reminiscient of decades past.

3D by 120Hz would also be a niche market generally taken by 3D gamers.

 

The X220 will have only integrated graphics for a reason --at that diminutive size, you can keep a processor, or a graphics card cool --you can't do both. It's a difficult enough challenge on 15" laptops, and I've seen a number that had trouble doing so.

I don't know a lot of professional mobile workstation users that look at their laptop as something to be set on a bench. I can see that's what you want, but I see most in that demographic who would rather have a large, high-resolution display. That smaller display means you have to pan around that much more, as well as strain your eyes, when it comes to detailed drawing work.

Between the display desires of most workstation professionals, and the engineering limitations of fitting a high-end graphics card and a fast processor into a design that can adequately cool it, I don't see your wish becoming a reality any time soon.

 

I think there's a good chance we'll be seeing such machines next year with Ivy Bridge. Maybe not the discreet graphics, but quad-core and pretty reasonable integrated graphics should be doable.

 

Yup, Ivy Bridge should be out by the end of 2011 or Q1 2012. The tiny laptop with workstation-class graphics that compete with the current generation of video cars is a great idea but I'm not sure there is a huge market for it. We can hope.

 

My hope is that intel's Thunderbolt port, which is 10 Gb/s, will make it possible to connect a desktop graphics card in an enclosure to a notebook, for when you need desktop level graphics performance.

Unfortunately Thunderbolt's speed can only match PCI express 2.0 2x (2lanes). Maybe there'll be a Thunderbolt 2.0 in 2013.

Thunderbolt
Lane___Gbps___GBps___MBps
1______10_____1.25___1280

PCI experess 2.0
Lane___GBps___ MBps
1______0.49___500
2______0.98___1000
3______1.46___1500
4______1.95___2000


Propaganda from intel:
Thunderbolt Technology

 

i think there is a market for it, its been a few years since a lot of companies switched over from a workstation at every desk to hotdesking and equipping all staff with laptops.

for me, if i could get a 12 or 13 inch laptop with decent resolution, and powerful graphics, i would be extremely happy. i'd have a dock for it at the office and a dock for it at home with external monitor,kb, mouse. kind of a "pick up your desktop and go" kind of concept. i think with switchable graphics this may finally be close to reality (or even a graphics card in the dock!)

 

rumor has it Sony has a 13" notebook in the works with external thunderbolt graphics. apparently Q3 release

 

What about the HP 8460W?

 

What do you think about ViDock? It comes close to what we want.

 

Well the Vaio Z kind of came close with its top line i7 high res screen options, and portability. However, I am not sure how well suited the GT330m would be for workstation duty. My mother when at home does her CAD work on a notebook with quad core i7 and GT330 gpu, but she doing architectural work and not heavy duty 2D/3D work.

 

the vaio Z while impressive on paper, is a shockingly flimsy machine. the LCD actually bends noticably just by the force of opening the LCD lid against the resistance provided by the hinges. also you can find on youtube, numerous videos showing how the actual base chassis noticably bends if you hold the laptop by a corner.

 

Short of Apple notebooks, the Vaio series are some of the biggest pains I've ever had to deal with when it comes to disassembly and repair, too.

 

im not surprised, both of them are built like home appliances, not designed for end user servicing.

but my worst experiences have been from acer notebooks. on a few of their models, just to clean the dust from the fan you have to do a complete disassembly :|

 

The problem with ViDock is that it's limited by the speed of it's connection to the notebook, which is expresscard speed of 2.5Gbps.

About ExpressCard

 

that is pretty much true for the MBP, but it is a fairly simple process on a MBP....

Acer and Sony laptops are the worst when it comes to end user servicing.

 

A) the X220 is as wide or wider (i've never seen depth play into cooling, most cooling solutions run sideways into the laptop for venting reasons) than the old Txxp's and they had monster GPU's.
B) asus had a 10" laptop with a full on dedicated nvidia GPU years ago
C) alienware has a monster of a GPU in an 11" machine.

 

Alienware's M11x (I'm assuming you meant the M11x, since you aren't using makes/models) has an nVidia Geforce GT 540M. It's a competent GPU, especially for an 11" laptop, but I wouldn't call it a "monster". Note also that the M11x is thicker than most laptops; I'd guess that's at least in part so a larger fan can be used.

I'm not going to search for some random ASUS 10" laptop to debate that one.

I'm not saying they can't put a GPU in the the X-220; but I don't think they can put a killer CAD-gpu into one, the kind that the OP wants. If Lenovo had to make it thicker, I could see all the people who wanted a small laptop griping about that, too. I also think that for the extra money Lenovo would charge, the number of sales they would get would be small.

 

I will say this LG in Asia and Australia had the X100 notebook and P100 tablet with ulv c2d paired with an nvidia integrated in a 10.6in machines back in 2007. I personally think they can give the X220 a gpu like the quadro equiv of the nvidia 410 or 415 gpu if they forgo optimus. However, not sure if these nvidia gpu would be much of an improvement over SB IGP.

 

What I want is:
* Switchable dedicated GPU [Unless there's a integrated option that is at least as fast my 3-year old 570m. That's right, the ancient Geforce 8700 series graphic chips are faster than i7-2520m's integrated gpu. I suspect it might take AMD to make good integrated graphics, unless the nvidia Tegra desktop war starts.]
* No dvd / external drive.
* i7-2520M Processor or better.
* Express 32 slot.
* 13" Screen form factor.
* IPS screen or better.
* Keyboard admission, I love the x120e keyboard and trackpad and prefer it to the pro models (Writer ducks!) The x120 keyboard will probably save room.
* Full 10mm Hard Drive.
* 4 Ram slots would be nice. It would be tight, but when you look at the volume of DVD drive we won't be putting in, it just might work.

Suggestions:
1.) Increase the radius diameter on the lid edges so, that the rubber coating does not rub off so easily, or mask the corners and do not apply it to the corners, or use a real strip of rubber around the outside edge of the lid.

2.) Use a fast larger slower turning fan and create a fan controller with a good number of fan speeds.

3.) Take advantage of modern heatsink compounds.

4.) Put rubber bumpers on the power brick so it doesn't slide around, look worn, or fall.

5.) Make the power manager so that you can change the power levels by right (contextual) clicking on it, without loading an entire program; in other words make the power manager work the way it used to before the marketing people starting messing with it.

6.) Make sure the feet size is generous an numerous enough that the computer does not slip from surfaces. This has not been a large issue with Thinkpads, but I wish there were 2 extra feet in the middle sometimes on a 15", but on a 13" four should do. Something like good feet keep a computer cheap by keeping it off the floor.

7.) In a clean tasteful manner, put the name of the computer on the front edge --in red!

 

Four RAM slots on a 13" notebook? Now I know you're going the wishful-thinking route.

I could see 2 slots supporting a 2x8GB DDR3 configuration as possible, but basically what you're asking for is like the magical "portable hole" from Looney Toons cartoons --a device that is a small size that somehow manages to hold a huge number of parts inside of it.

Also, if you want a chiclet keyboard, watch yourself buying the laptop, no other CAD-professional in the world buying it, and the vendor discontinuing the model.

What you really want is your version of the gold-plated Macbook Pro: an insanely expensive one-off custom job. It's nice to dream, but I don't see this becoming a reality.

 

I guess you would have took a good look at how much room a DVD drive takes up to understand. For instance, look how much room the DVD and it's associated parts takes up in the T61p. Squaring off the drive itself the drive takes up at least 13x13x1cm or a 169cm2.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b12/al_oasis1/T61p.jpg

Note: even though it's an aging computer, the heatsinks and pipes are still pulling out 35watt for cpu and 35watt for the gpu.

Without the the PCMCIA, you would have a little more room yet.

There is a downside to doing memory in dual channel configurations for speed, because it would seem that using 3 sticks of RAM would be a good compromise, giving 12 GB.

64 Bit Windows 7 is a memory pig, and I would like to have 8GB free and clear for doing CAD. On Linux, only 300MB is eaten by the OS, and doing FEA, I would like to have the other 11.7 free, because there ain't no sunshine when you are using virtual memory during your heavy math operations.

I also strongly disagree about the X120e keyboard; it's a surprisingly good part, and better than some of the pro keyboards. Have you actually tried it in the real world? Besides the technical documentation I have written, I've written about 290,000 words and my fingers yearn for something a little softer.

What I have been suggesting is the next logical step: a small powerful computer.

...and if no one on IBM's design team can figure out how to make it, perhaps they should hire me.

 

making a W320 is not hard, but it is much harder to make a good business case of it. There is no point making a product that will eat into sales of other products or have insufficient customers to even cover the capital expenditure. So unless you can gather enough interests then there is little likelihood of W320 ever appearing.

If you are having difficulties even convincing the general forum audience about the feasibility of such ideas, then it would be even harder for the Lenovo's designers and engineers to get the CEO approve plan for another halo product that Lenovo can't make a healthy profit return on.

 

64-bit Windows 7 is using memory exactly the way it should be.

The concept of "free memory" is no longer what it was during Windows XP. Windows Vista and Windows 7 now attempt to put as much into RAM as possible, to avoid disk swaps. Windows will reassign the memory to your CAD program if it needs it. This is a lot like some non-Windows operating systems have done (i.e., OS/2) to improve performance. Windows isn't being a memory pig --it's using memory more efficiently than it ever did before by saying "I have it, why don't I use it rather than letting it sit idle"?

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/02/behind-the-windows-7-memory-usage-scaremongering.ars

As for keyboards, I don't use chiclet keyboards. If you want an example of my curmudgeon-behavior, I still believe the IBM Model-M keyboard was the best that was ever made, and I still have one on my Q9650 desktop. I hate the short throw of chiclet keys; this is no matter how well the keyboard is built. I want a positive response, as it gives me the best feedback for my own typing experience, and the ThinkPad T-series keyboard is the closest experience to that in a laptop. From what I've seen from most professionals, this is what they want too --so while you may strongly disagree with me, I think you personally would be one of the very few buying a workstation-level laptops with chiclet keyboards. If Lenovo can only sell a few hundred of them, they aren't going to make them.

I have no issue with what kind of laptop you want. I just think your desires are so customized, that a product centered around your needs would be a financial loss for Lenovo. It would be an expensive product to produce and sell, and it is unlikely that many people would buy it in sufficient quantity at a price Lenovo would need to sell it at to turn a profit.

I also see some of your desires as so customized, that it would limit sales to other individuals, who might not want the same things you want.

 

I am one of those who is looking for the same kind of computer. Very light with a powerful graphic card. I use my laptop for work, but I travel a lot and love to game too. Obviously, I can't have it all but I have narrowed the computers I want to these:

- Acer TimelineX 3830TG (or the earlier version 3820TG): 13"3, i7, GeForce GT 540M, no DVD drive, 1.8kg

- Asus K43sv: 14"0, i7, GT 540M, 2.44kg

- Lenovo Ideapad Y470: 14"1, i7, GT 550M, 2.2kg

- Sandy Bridge refresh of the HP Envy 14?

All these are well-built sandy bridge laptops with new generation graphic cards and are not all out yet.

I'm leaning toward the Acer 3830TG or the IdeaPad Y470. I have always had a thinkpad (typing on a 4:3 X60T here and just sold my T61p) and it's a shame there's no Thinkpad W420, W320, T420p or X220p...

 

a workstation is a poor choice for gaming.   respectfully speaking, you and BrendaEM are looking for two completely different systems unless the "work" you're performing is in CAD, gas/oil, etc.

 

I am a chemical engineer and yes I do some CAD too. But, it is not a poor choice. Most people don't know CAD GPU and gaming GPU use the same architecture. Most of the things that make the GPU a CAD GPU are in the drivers and little are the silicon (except for ECC ans some other minor stuff like underclokcing for stability, etc). Some are even just rebadged GPUs. One can easily see that by comparing the specs. CAD graphic cards performs just as well. And one can turn a mainstream graphic card into a CAD graphic card with modified drivers. It's just all about marketing and getting more money from companies.

 

Actually, it's also about magnesium alloy chassis, carbon fiber roll cages, and a few other things as well, things I doubt the laptops you mentioned have.

 

Here's the thing: the machine is buildable, and people could be productive with it.

["64-bit Windows 7 is using memory exactly the way it should be."

LOL! What do you work for MS? The best way to use memory is NOT to use it, and save it for your applications! With Windows 7, MS seems to have optimized the system for little applications, not big ones like CAD.

Like I stated Linux 64, specifically Ubuntu 64 boots in under 300mb of RAM! As an operating system, Windows 7 64 does nothing for me that Ubuntu 64 does not, absolutely nothing. It's more popular, but so was drinking water from lead pipes.

There are way to many services running in Windows 7, to even come close to having a manageable memory footprint. Additionally, I was aghast to see how long it took to sort events in computer management. The even ruined the event reporting system.

I don't care who MS paid off; it's not a good operating system; it's the emperor's new clothes.]

 

No, but I have worked in the computer field for sixteen years now. You might want to check that link I posted to back up what I had to say.

Linux doesn't work the same way as Windows. If Windows does nothing for you that Linux doesn't do, then use Linux and be happy. I have nothing against Linux, myself --and if your first response is to ask me if I work for Microsoft rather than disagree with me and show me with proof why you believe I'm wrong, then obviously I'm in the wrong message thread.

 

I'm getting some bites on a machine that hasn't even been made yet : )

[I've seen that article. I don't want crap cached; I want the most available amount of memory for my work in a single application. I'm not running a spreadsheets and balancing the books on the side; I am working on a 3D representation of a machine with hundreds of parts. Most of the parts are instances, but one has to start to watch it the memory usage from the get-go. Whether it be CAD, Photoshop, or video editing, music production, or even games: don't take all of our memory. Windows 7 was Vista that appeared to be more efficient, with it's multi-layered delayed starts. IMHO. MS has always been like an attention starved paperclip that wants recognition, but has never done its homework. MS thought that Moore's law would never break down, and the hardware would just getting faster by the GHz, but that didn't happen and most portable computers are only shipping with 4GB or RAM, and MS Windows wants at least one of them, and anything else it can sap from your system, and for what benefit? What were they thinking?

Please back on topic please!]

 

So what you really want is a custom operating system for your custom laptop.

I think you should go and build both; you'll be much happier. Or build the laptop and switch to Linux; you seem much happier with it, and in your words, Ubuntu 64 does for you everything that Windows 7 x64 does.

Either way, this is my last post for this thread. You know what you want --go out and make it yours. I wish you luck.

 

You have had the last say, so please, let's get back on topic. I was suggesting that a small powerful laptop be made by Lenovo.

 

Actually workstation graphics card have better quality electrical components to ensure stability and they have more vram too. You can easily reflash some types of gaming cards to the workstation equivalent cards, but they won't have the same sort of graphics performance in many Solidworks and CAD environment. You can test this yourself. Get an ATI 3870 and flash it to the Firestream or FireGL equivalents, and then compare the result with an actual Firestream or FireGL card.

Also, most chemical engineers deal with HYSYS, Matlab, Excels, visio, etc, they are more CPU bound processes. Very rarely do the chemical engineers design chemical plants in CAD environments, these are all done by the mechanical engineers whom are more adept at it.

For chemical engineers large screen real estate is more essential then having a more powerful GPU, so that you can work with more information. I got a 17 inch MBP when i was doing my chemical engineering course so that i can fit more information on the screen for HYSYS, 13 inch laptop makes it difficult.

 

What are we talking about here? Please, don't quote me and change the context. We were talking about graphic cards and I said CAD GPU are all about getting more money compared to their maintream counterpart. And I don't see how adding all that stuff like magnesium alloy is going the same direction. That's real stuff and not just marketing.

But you are right. These are consumer laptops. Top of the line, but still no prosumer stuff.

 

When I sit at a desk, I use a 24 inch monitor, but when I'm outdoors, I want something small and light to carry.

 

an X220 or X220T would fit that bill quite well.   enjoy the outdoors while you're there and save the heavy processing for when you're at a desk behind a proper display.

 

CAD cards perform about 50% better than modded cards. But for games, with same specs, they perform very similarly. It is true that CAD cards usually have much more memory, but it is not the case for laptop cards.

I design new generation chemostats reactor and I do use CAD. Don't use Aspen much. But why does it matter?

This thread is about having a small CAD workstation with a good graphic card. The laptops I gave are small, light and have the best graphic cards for their size. (specwise: GT540M = Quadro 1000M < GT550M). But you must have modded drivers and they don't perform as well.

 

the modded cards perform only 50% better than the gaming card, but they are not even on par with the low mid range workstation cards. The ATI 3870 that i modded to V7700 FireGL can't even beat my Quadro FX 1700 in Solidworks and AutoCAD.

So how many parts do your chemstats design have?

 

mobile CAD solutions have quickly caught up to workstation cards in terms of memory.   the quadro 1000M and 2000M both have 2GB and the 5010M has 4GB.   that's right on par with workstation graphics cards.   heck, the FX 4800 in my thinkstation has 1.5GB and that used to be considered a ton of memory a couple of years ago.

 

workstation cards usually have double of the vram of the equivalent gaming cards.

 

what is w320?

 

Even if cards exist, I have never seen any 3D workstation laptop that has more memory than gaming laptops. And stop talking about desktop cards, of course it's going to be different.

 

Answer my previous question about this and I'll answer yours.

 

Thinkpad W500 uses the V5700 FireGL which is based on the ATI 3650.

V5700 in W500 have 512 mb of vram
3650 in T500 have 256 mb of vram

 

You misinterpreted my sentence. Max VRAM one can find on laptops is the same for CAD and gaming cards. I have yet to see a CAD laptop with more VRAM than a gaming one (of the same generation and any cards). But it is theorically possible (5010M with 4gb whereas current generation mobile gaming cards max out at 2gb). And T500 is everything but a gaming laptop.

 

I could see a w420 with a lower end quad core, 1080p screen, switchable (non auto) ati GPU. That would be the perfect cad/gamer/VM machine for travel.