Thinkpad X300 ULV CPU question

I have a question regarding the low voltage CPU in the Thinkpad X300. According to benchmarks from notebookreview.com, it's actually a little faster than my SZ's T8100 when downclocked in power saver mode (which I use just about always).

My question is, is the SL7100 downclocked even more when on battery to get 6+ hours on the 6-cell, or do ULV processors typically remain at the same speed due to them being power efficient enough (and slow enough) as it is?

 

You don't have to, but you can clock down the SL7100 to 800Mhz. As far as I see, this does not affect the battery lifetime much when idleing.
What does affect the lifetime is load, so if you're only doing office and web-browsing, you should not have to care about that.

By the way: 6+ hours should be difficult to get even with the 6-cell-battery, the X300 is not that power-efficient (but afaik the X301 is).

 

That's strange, why would the X301 be more power efficient when the only apparent difference is the more powerful CPU?

 

Centrino 2 platform with DDR3 memory.

 

Hmm, well you're right that 6 hour battery life isn't correct - the X300 review here shows that 3.5 - 4 is a more practical rating. However, the X301 (according to reviews on notebookreview.com) shows battery life even worse than the X300..

Anyway the 3.5 hours isn't too bad, but it's surprising that the Vaio Z (same weight but 3x as powerful) gets 1.5-2x this battery life, considering the LV processor of the X300.

 

Hm, 3.5-4 hours is also very pessimistic.
When I'm using my X300, I have an average power consumption of 11-12W (display at 60-80%, just typing in a terminal, wlan). Even when I'm using Bluetooth, browsing the web and listening to MP3s, I have 14-15W.
With my setup (3cell+3cell) I have 52Wh which should be about the same as one 6-cell-battery and 3.5-5 hours of battery lifetime.
As I heard, the X301 shall be better in power consumption, just needing about 10W and 7-8W when idleing (the X300 needs ~10W, even less when dimming the display).

I don't know why Lenovo made the X300 that inefficient, my X40 before hadn't a LED-backlit display, a less efficient processor but just 7-8W in idle, 9W in use. Why?

 

I guess then the only advantage of the X300 for me is weight, screen resolution, durability, and the nice keyboard / trackpoint mouse.

That power consumption is very strange. My SZ right now is consuming about 12W with 50% brightness, about 50 firefox tabs open, and some other programs running, with the 2.1GHz CPU downclocked to 0.84GHz. I would have thought LV CPUs would be much more efficient.

If it wasn't for the X300 being available so cheap ($1300, for now at least), the Vaio Z would be a way better option (I wish it had a trackpoint though).

 

12w is very high. My x200 tablet with similar settings can get under 7 watts.

The problem is that the x300/x301 uses very weak batteries. I think the 6 cell is only about 40WHr vs. 56Whr for the 6 cell on the T400 [the 3 cell is only about 24 WHr]. Therefore, even a miserly 6-8 watts of power usage doesn't equate to that long.

 

Yeah, I guess the only reason my SZ gets 5-6 hours is it's 6-cell battery is 63Whr's, but even considering the X300's 40WHr battery, 3.5-4 hours still isn't that good. It's pretty much the same batt.life/WHr ratio as my SZ, and my SZ is full power (T8100 2.1GHz).

Actually the MacBook Air is an interesting option now because it seems to get much better battery life than the X300 with a much more powerful CPU, and is available refurbished for $1300 as well. Although I'll have to seriously think about the lack of DVD / ethernet / etc.

 

The Air is an interesting choice as a secondary computer. However, it is far too limited for me to recommend it as your primary/only machine.

Also, I wouldn't expect the Air to get much (if any) better battery life than the x300. Apple may be a little more reasonable than some, but they also use very vague battery life numbers (e.g. at least 4 hours of "wireless productivity").

The small battery if unfortunate, but I think it was a consequence of the ultra-thin design (by contrast the 6 cell on the T400, x200, etc., is thicker than the entire x300).

 

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't get an Air as a primary computer. The reason I'm even considering selling my SZ and getting an Air/X300/etc. is because I've found that I use my SZ mainly as a portable web browser / word processor / video player. The last time I used the DVD drive was probably a few months ago (most videos I watch online or download), and I haven't had the need for more than one USB port so far. If it wasn't for this, the MBA wouldn't even be an option.

Regarding battery life, the NBR review got ~4.5 hours for the MBA under similar conditions that the X300 got ~3.5 hours. Unfortunately 3-4 hours just isn't enough for me, but 4-5 is acceptable.

Now, with the 3-cell bay battery, the X300 would definitely last long enough, but that raises the price an additional $160+, and the weight also I believe.

 

Is there a reason you don't want the x200 or x200s??

They get great battery life and are quite light.

 

The X200/X200s could work, but my thoughts are:

- The screen is smaller and dimmer than the MBA/X300
- The X200 (12") is heavier than the MBA (13")
- The X200s is light weight, but too expensive (can't find in outlet)

The X200 is definitely powerful though, and has good battery life with the 6-cell+. I guess my main complaints would be the dimmer/smaller screen and weight of the X200.

 

Brightness really isn't a problem on the x200, and the size feels about right (to me at least). However, I will be the first to admit that the standard x200 does not have a very good screen (I ended up getting the Tablet because I was dis-satisfied with the screen on the x200).

I think the weight difference is trivial at best between the x200 and x300. The MBA is slightly lighter, but that's because it is a heavily feature reduced notebook (the x200 is loaded with performance and options).

 

Well here are my options (that I know of):

Thinkpad X300, 3.3 lbs, 1.2GHz, 2GB RAM, 64GB SSD, 6-cell - $1270
Thinkpad X200, 3.2 lbs, 2.2GHz, 2GB RAM, 64GB SSD, 6-cell - $1030
Macbook Air, 3.0 lbs, 1.8GHz, 2GB RAM, 64GB SSD - $1300

The X300 isn't so great due to the battery life, and I don't think I'd be happy with the X200 if the screen was considerably worse than my SZ. I guess the only disadvantage of the MBA is it's keyboard/mouse is different than the Lenovo style keyboard and trackpoint, which I think I would prefer.

I'm still undecided, but am starting to lean towards the MacBook Air (although I'm planning on seeing these laptops in person if possible before making any decision).

 

...and the dreadful compliment of ports...and the fixed battery...and let's not bring up the notion that all that pretty packaging and marketing blitzing has to be paid for somehow.

For some reason, Lenovo doesn't seem to need to stick a ThinkPad in our face during every other commercial break on television. You have to wonder why that is. :wink:

 

I tend to agree on the ports, battery, and everything else. However, Apple seems to be clearing house of the Air if you can get that config for $1300, and as long as it's a secondary computer, the lack of ports isn't a serious problem.

I'd still probably lean towards the x300 due to the keyboard quality, reliability, and overall usefulness, but the Air is intriguing.

True, but the lack of the media blitz may have something to do with how poorly Lenovo has done in sales the last several months (despite having superb products). Corporate sales are Lenovo's bread and butter (and way down), and the lack of a strong consumer presence (no media blitz) hasn't been enough to hold them up. Apple has remained largely immune (just look at the stock charts for the past 6 months).

 

Hm, I just read another review and they say, the X300 is about 7.5W in idle. Don't trust my values, they're from Linux, but many others have the same consumption.
I also just wonder about the 6-cell battery. It seems to have only 40Wh, but the 3-cell, which is thinner and lighter, has 30Wh.

You should also consider the optional battery for the bay in the X300. That way, you could achieve +23Wh, and if you don't use your optical drive you wouldn't lose any function.

The Macbook Air is in my opinion a terrible notebook. Glossy screen, imho horrible keyboard, no ports, low screen resolution, battery can not be changed.
If you're going to put your Notebook apart, you're considerably wrong with Apple. And if you want to have a good battery lifetime even in three years, you have to send it back to Apple to have them change the battery.
The X300 is nicer, has some nice features you don't think about when buying it, but what makes it just a bit better in use - speakers on the palmrest make a good sound, the keyboard has some nice coating and is imho better than that of other modern thinkpads (recently typed on an X200t), the screen resolution is fine.
I would be tending clearly towards the X300, though I would also consider the Dell Latitude E4300.

 

X300 (1.2 GHz) + 6 cell & 3 cell - $1430:
+ Higher res screen
+ More ports
+ Better keyboard and mouse
+ Probably runs cooler

MacBook Air (1.8 GHz) - $1300
+ 0.3 pounds lighter
+ Much faster
+ Less expensive
+ Brighter screen (I think?)

Hmm.... I guess the X300 is still an option with the bay battery, but I was kind of trying to keep under $1400 after tax. Does anyone know if Lenovo can ship to California without tax? Apple can't because they have warehouses in CA.

 

Check out the Lenovo outlet. The X300 is going for $1225 for the new models. Refurbs as low as $1031.

 

I checked out all the refurbished / new prices, and I can get a X300 with 6-cell and 3-cell bay for about $1400-$1450 total (the cheap refurbished models all have 3-cells), but like I said, unless Lenovo doesn't require tax to ship to CA, this is over what I planned on paying.

At this point I guess I'll just have to go see an X300 in person to decide. I already know what the MacBook Air is like in person, and that I like it, but if it turns out I like the X300 a lot better, I'll probably get that.

 

Are you a student, or do you work for a non-profit? If so, you can probably become tax exempt from Lenovo.


Also, the battery in the Air is user replaceable, you just have to remove ≈20 screws to get to it .

 

Does doing so also happen to void your warranty?

 

I don't care at all that the MBA's battery isn't user swappable. My priorities are:

1. Weight (winner: MBA)
2. Battery life (winner: MBA, or X300 with bay batt.)
3. Screen (winner: X300)
4. Keyboard / mouse (winner: X300)

Hopefully under $1300-$1400 total price (including tax and shipping). The refurb. MBA comes to exactly $1400, and the X300 without bay battery would probably be about the same.

I'm not a student and don't work for a non-profit org., so if I was to get a X300 I guess it would have to be without the bay battery to fit in my price range.

 

Probably, it is Apple.

This is a picture of the inside of the Air. The battery is the big black thing in the middle. Further identification - hard drive in top left, CPU in top center, motherboard/RAM in top right, practically nothing in the front half (hence the blade shaped design and dearth of ports).

 

Actually that's a photo of it with the battery removed - the black thing in the middle isn't the battery and all that empty space is because the battery is gone. The battery fills in the black area and all that empty space (well, most of it):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSEKeSL9F4g

 

I stand corrected. The pictures I found lacked a caption (so I had to guess).

 

Well, one reason to care is that with the X300 you can always bring along a spare battery if you're going to be away from a power outlet for a long period of time and swap it in once the original gets low. With the air there's nothing you can do once its battery runs out except recharge it.

Still, apart from the thin 13.3" form factor, I don't think the air and the X300 are really comparable machines: it's more a question of whether or not you want the extra features the X300 offers (like ethernet port, possibility of built in DvD etc.)

 

Well the answer to that is no (don't need them), so to me the question is really if I want the extra battery life, portability, and performance over the X300's better screen, keyboard, and mouse.

It's a tough decision. The more I think about the X300's screen resolution and keyboard/mouse, the more I lean toward the X300. But the more I think about the MBA's weight and stock battery life, the more I lean toward the MBA.

I'm starting to think the X300 will be the better choice for me, at least where work is concerned; high res will be nicer to read PDFs (and just about everything), and the nice keyboard and mouse will make working easier.

Then again, what good is it all if I don't have the battery life and portability to use it (and performance to get the job done)? Well, hopefully this weekend I'll find an X300 to compare.

 

Slightly off-topic question: If I buy an X300 with a DVD drive, would it include a "blank" bay filler if I wanted to remove the DVD drive occasionally to save weight, or would I have to buy it separately?

 

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't include the blank. Also, the bay in the X300 is not the typical UltraBay design, but more of a fixed solution (you have to remove a screw to swap parts). As such it's not really meant for frequent swapping.

I imagine the weight of the DVD drive is negligible anyway.

 

True, the DVD is only .2-.3 pounds or something I think. It's not that important.

Anyway, I just ordered the last X300 with DVD burner and 6-cell battery from the Lenovo outlet ($1295). It's "redistributed", which means it's basically new (factory sealed box) but was shipped to someone who returned it without opening it. I made sure to make PDF "printouts" of every step of the ordering process since this seems to be recommended for Lenovo Outlet.

Lenovo Thinkpad X300: XP Pro, 1.2GHz, 2GB RAM, 64GB SSD, Intel WiFi 4965AG, Cingular WAN, Bluetooth, Intel X3100, 6-cell battery, UltraNav, fingerprint reader, free carrying case, 1 year warranty

Here's what made me decide to buy the X300 over the MacBook Air:

Most importantly, I did some research on the MBA "Rev A" models (which is what the refurbished ones were). Apparently they had a lot of issues with heat management and battery life seemed to vary a lot. Although a "good" unit will run without getting too hot, the fan will rev up to a high (loud) speed with something like watching youtube videos.

Second, thanks to notebookcheck.net, I found that the X300 screen is actually slightly brighter than my Vaio SZ! This means I'll still be able to use it outside just as well. Unfortunately the SZ's color quality, contrast, and viewing angles are much better, but I don't mind sacrificing these a little, given the X300's superior 1440x900 resolution.

Also, regarding battery life, I found that XP vs. Vista on the X300 seems to make quite a difference in battery life. One page showed Vista able to reach 5 hours on the 6-cell, while XP Pro reached 6.5 hours. Also, the MacBook Air very rarely gets more than 4 hours of battery life when you're doing anything, because the MBA battery is actually lower in capacity than the X300, in addition to it's CPU taking more power. I think the only reason some tests showed the X300 to get worse battery life than the MBA is due to Vista and unoptimized settings (I don't know if Lenovo ships bloatware or not).

And last (but not least ), the main reason I started considering buying a new laptop was because I miss using a trackpoint (sometimes I hate touchpads). The last time I used a trackpoint was on my old 12" IBM ThinkPad that weighed 9 (NINE) pounds

 

Congratulations! I hope you enjoy it --- I'm sure you'll find that as an all-round functional laptop the X300 is hands down better than the air, and the price is great.

 

I know that if my requirements weren't what they are, I have no doubt that the X301/X300 would be my notebook of choice.

Enjoy!

 

Well, it arrived today, exactly as ordered! (well actually, I got wireless AGN rather than ABG, which is nice )

So far I'm extremely impressed with it in every way - the build quality is unbelievable. I thought my Sony SZ was built well, but now it literally seems cheap in comparison. This X300 is built like a rock (a lightweight rock )!

Features and ergonomics are excellent - the thinklight, the trackpoint (which I am so happy to finally use again), the excellent keyboard with very useful buttons like the browser back/forward, ThinkVantage, volume controls. I also like the way you have to hold the power button for a second to actually start it hibernating, which eliminates annoying accidental shutdowns.

The screen is very very nice. I love the high resolution, and it is in fact brighter than my SZ, so I'm happy. Next to the SZ, the SZ does have whiter whites and greater contrast, but watching movies on the X300 look just fine (and they play smoothly, which I'm happy to see).

Battery life is acceptable, and I haven't even optimized it yet - I'm getting a little over 4 hours of battery life and I've been downloading, installing, uninstalling, etc. fairly heavily.

The performance actually surprises me. It definitely feels a lot faster and more responsive than my SZ, and programs seem to install very fast - no doubt due to the SSD + XP. Should be more than enough for my needs. It also runs much cooler and quieter overall.

And finally, I love the weight / size. The thickness is just right I think for easy carrying, and the weight is really a nice improvement over my SZ.

Overall I am really really glad I got an X300 over the MBA . I think this is really the perfect laptop for me - I honestly can't think of anything on the market that's better right now

 

AC - congrats on your new purchase! I went through a similar experience in January - I bought a new Sony Z and ended up returning it for the x300.

Could you do me a favor, though? Mine isn't as quiet as I'd like it to be - I'm wondering if there is a problem with my fan or thermal grease on the processor. Could you, Jon, or any other X300 owners let me know what temperature your processor runs at and how your fans react?

Here is what my fan / temperature settings have been: using Intel Thermal Analysis Tool, speedfan, or TPFancontrol to monitor my temps, my machine quickly (within 3 minutes of turning on) climbs up to 50c even when at idle. At this point, the fan kicks up to 5100 rpm. It doesn't matter if I'm at at 800 MHZ (Maximum Battery life Power Scheme) or 1200 (Maximum Performance). If I'm at Maximum battery life, the fan will kick up to level 2 (5100 rpm), go back to 1 every minute or so. When I'm at Maximum Performance, the fan runs constantly at level 2 (5100 RPM). BTW, I'm running XP. Again, I'm at idle - processor usage is under 5%. Is this relatively normal, or should I send it in for repair?

Thanks!

 

50C is definitely too hot. Mine is running at 22C now, and it gets up to 31C in a warm room. The fan is almost always off, so it's usually completely silent. I have heard the fan come on a few times though, but it was when I was uninstalling software / multitasking after a reboot. However I'll have to test it some more at home in the quiet to be sure, but I can say that those temperatures alone should be enough to get it fixed / replaced under warranty.

If you need any screenshots / whatever to prove to Lenovo that yours is running to hot, let me know. You should really try to get Lenovo to fix this ASAP I think (don't let the warranty expire!) because this is really an amazing laptop

P.S. Also, with XP Pro + Firefox and Adblock Plus, I'm using 8.6 Watts. Vista would probably be more though.

 

THANK YOU!!!! this is what I've been suspecting the whole time - could you please do some more testing when you get home and let me know what program you're using to monitor temperature?? My machine has NEVER been under 40c - I just want to let Lenovo know that something is wrong with certainty, and the more info the better.
-V

 

Oops, those figures I gave were completely wrong - I was looking at battery temperature. The actual CPU core temps as reported by HWMonitor range from 40C - 50C for me :/. Sorry about that.

Also, the fan in full battery saving mode does come on some times I've noticed, but usually only with SDD or CPU activity. Running Firefox with Adblock Plus and optimizing startup processes helps here (and also prolongs battery life). It can be somewhat annoying because it's so silent when the fan is off, it sounds loud in comparison when it turns on (although you can't hear it unless you're in a somewhat quiet room).

Overall though my laptop doesn't really get hot externally at least (no warmer than my SZ for sure), even though those core temps are somewhat high compared to my SZ. I think it's because the X300 doesn't have Penryn IIRC, so it's bound to run hotter.

Anyway I'll definitely do some more testing to see the fan RPM levels compared to yours. I have a feeling it will be close, but there's still the possibility yours may be faulty if the fan is on all the time.

 

Hmm...OK...got a little over-excited there...looks like I'll be using tpfancontrol to kick in at 60c (that seems to be the most common solution) and probably not sending it in after all. Next question: you mentioned tweaking the startup processes - do you have a link to an article on how to do this? Also, how did you manage to optimize your your battery? Any hints?
Thanks a bunch!

 

What I'm gonna do it leave HWMonitor running for a while, and let you know my low/high temps. I don't think I've ever seen it over 50C, but we'll see. If you're getting 60C with mostly idle CPU, you still might be able to get that fixed I think. I read that normal idle temps for this CPU is 40-50C, so anything much beyond 50C might indicate a problem.

Regarding the optimization / tweaking, all I really do is eliminate a lot of the processes, and also run the screen at 50Hz (I can't tell the difference much from 60Hz anyway). I think running at 16bit color depth will also give some extra battery life, although it won't change heat production as the startup process optimization will.

First of all, remove the defrag program. Defragmentation is largely pointless with an SSD and it strains and wears out the drive.

Next I try to set as many programs in the tray to disable starting up automatically. After this, you're left with a few more items which you'll have to clear up manually. I use Spybot S&D for this because it gives a list of all startup processes with a dictionary that tells you what it does (sometimes the startup entries can look cryptic). You don't want to disable any of the ThinkVantage stuff as a general rule, but things like Adobe Updater, Google Update, Java Update, and anything you don't need you can disable. I can give you a full list of what I disabled if you want.

When web browsing, I usually get ~8 watts of power consumption. It goes up to ~14 occasionally depending on what I do though.

 

This may be my imagination, but since I installed XP SP3 and updated to the latest BIOS, it seems to be running a lot quieter. As I type there is absolute and total silence around me (it's late here), and not once has my fan come on (well if it is on, I sure can't hear a sound even when I hold the laptop to my ear) while web browsing, etc. I did get the fan to turn on by running the WPrime32 benchmark, but it smoothly turned off about 30 seconds after it finished.

It could be because I have it on my lap and there is more air circulation underneath, or it could be that the BIOS has better fan control. Before it seemed the fan control wasn't too consistent - either it was full on or full off, which was kind of annoying to hear, but it seems really nice now. I'll try it on a desk later (probably tomorrow) and see if it was just the extra air circulation that reduced the fan usage or not.

 

Did you have Aero turned on in Vista? I would think the BIOS controls would be the same regardless of OS.

 

Here's what I've found about the fan so far: it seems that when the laptop is on a desk or other surface, when the surface heats up and doesn't allow it to cool off as well, the fan is used more often. When I'm using it on a fresh cold surface or on my lap, it stays cool better (the fan is rarely audible).

However, even when it does need to use the fan, it doesn't use it that often - it turns on and off occasionally. It can be annoying but fortunately the fan is so quiet all you really hear is the rush of air anyway (so it doesn't bother me).

I think they should have had a more variable fan control rather than what appears to be either full on or full off, because it's not quite cool enough to run completely without a fun, but doesn't need the full fan either.

P.S. TPFanControl looks very useful. I think I'll play around with it and see if I can make a profile that keeps it mostly silent (and cool).