Thinkpad has gone down toilet.

Well the company I work for decided to cancel our orders for T400 laptops. Where can I begin...This laptop is CRAP. These issue are not specific to one laptop as we have used over a dozen of them, already.

1. Keyboard flex even with the 2009 update.
2. Palm rest flex.
3. Scrolling with trackpoint + middle mouse button is a joke. Its slow and jumpy compared to previous models. It sucks.
4. The units make the dreaded "CPU whine" in reality the power components make the noise. VERY annoying.
5. Lenovo still uses the same CRAP Mfr to supply its CPU fans which makes a high freq ringing noise just like the t60 and t61s do. This is a high freq noise which you can only hear if you're under 40 and many people have already complained about it. This noise comes about once the second level speed of the fan kicks in.
6. Same ridiculously thick screen bezel as the T61. When will Lenovo learn that the NOBODY likes the off center screen??? Its mind boggling they still implement this idiotic design.
7. Lenovo uses a cheaper crappy touchpad which lags compared to previous models.
8. Speakers have gotten WORSE than the T60/T61 units. They have gone from so-so to CRAP.
9. The unit feels "cheap" and "plasticy" like low budget laptops (which in reality it IS).

It is shocking but the quality of ThinkPads today have reached BUDGET laptop levels. You can buy a budget laptop at BestBuy with the exact same or BETTER build quality than todays Thinkpads. Its a true shame....

 

There's definitely flex on the T400 keyboard, but I really don't notice it unless I press down around the "a" key really hard. As for everything else, I'm pretty impressed with my T400. I guess the LCD viewing angles could be better, but that's about it.

 

Yeah maybe they can get some of those great HP's or better yet some of those wonderful Dell's. Uh Huh!

That keyboard flex thing is so overblown and now palm rest flex... GEEZ, how do you people type with your elbows or your feet?

 

I wish I could buy a budget laptop at bestbuy and get the same quality or better. Your comments are valid but that was a little hyperbolic.

 

out of all those problems you listed, i have none.

no keyboard flex, no palm rest flex, no cpu whine, which is actually capacitors, ive never heard my fan running over my tv, its whisper quiet.

the screen does kind of suck though, its just not that bright (CCFL), the off center thing sucks too but its not that noticeable.

as for the quality, this is my first TP so i cant compare but it seems fine to me compared to my HP that i had.

 

I have tried someone's T400 and compared to my T4x series and my past 9 years experience with thinkpads of the past I 100% guarentee you there is noticible difference in keyboard quality at least as much as I can remember and comparing with the T4x keyboard is concerned. The new keyboard typing is not solid feel. Its more 'springy' feel. It kinda springs your fingers back up whereas my keyboard feels more 'solid'. Compared to other crappy brands its not bad. But this is thinkpad. We should not compare with the same standard, and as such its a disappointment. Its also true that the plastic material used for the new keyboard apperas of lighter density.

Granted, everything else does looks good. I also have a lot of nit picky things to say about the t400 but I guess only the keyboard disappoints me most and is very close to deal breaker for me. But im prob still gonna get it to replace my t4x which is prob on its way out.

 

Lenovo definitely could improve greatly (and on customer service and website experience, etc) but you also have to factor in the decrease in costs for thinkpads compared to those of yore.

 

That is exactly right and the fact of the matter is as time goes on nothing remains the same. You take cars for example, in some ways they are better and in others not so much so. I could name many things that don't last as long or aren't built as well as they use to be. It is just the nature of the beast called profit!

I just think a lot of this stuff is nitpicking and honestly some folks just can't fathom that things change and not always for the better.

We bought several dozen of these T400 for our staff and we've not had a single issue. But rest assured they aren't like banging on the keyboards and palm rest to see if they have a slight flex. They aren't sitting with the ears against the machine trying to hear it the whining. These machines work great and they do the job and the price point compared to years of old is much better. I don't want to pay $3000 for a Thinkpad! I am totally satisfied with mine, but then I am not OCD about every little thing that I think should be a certain way because they were in the past. Maybe that is just me!

 

HA! HA!!!! EXACTLY this is your first thinkpad so you have NO idea what a quality laptop is to begin with. This thread is more directed to people who have knowledge and have owned laptops in the past. Im guessing you are very young as well.

 

yup , but i just thought id point out that those issues he had with the t400 dont happen to everyone.

like the fan, ive never seen anyone complain about it on these forums.

 

All I am saying is DONT expect a quality laptop if you buy a T400 as you will NOT get one. Anyone who disagrees is a noob or has never owned previous laptops.

 

I've used Thinkpads since the T40s and the T400 is the best I've ever used.

I think you're just nostalgic about the past.

 

Why are you agreeing with him and then tangent off by yourself about a point that is contrary to the one hes making.

Also many of your justifications seem flawed.

Making a profit and making a poor quality cheap product need not be synonymous. It would be rather disasterous for anyone to think this is the only way to go about things.

The inflation adjusted price of electronics are naturally decreasing as time progresses due to technological improvements and maturity, and economies of scale. The fact laptops cost more in the past itself says nothing of its quality or profit or incentives of the company. It costed more in the past due to historically relevant economics and technological issues.

The problem with current thinkpads is its legacy of the past. Among many things the thinkpad brand had developed the image as a reliable solid notebook. Some may say its ugly but everyone acknowledges its reliability and quality. Its afterall built by the household name that is IBM. And surely they had built some quality products which by the standard of those times is amazing. They were innovators. Naturally one would expect a company to traverse in the direction it was projected as going and show improvements. Its like moore's law. You shouldnt be expecting slower processors to cost more in the future. That will be contradictory to the projected and expected purpose. Here, people are disappointed that new thinkpads appear to be lower quality in build. If thinkpads 10 years ago can be built as a tank, and thinkpads built in 2009 are falling apart with flimsy keyboards, people will naturally raise the question of why this is the case. And for most, it is done for no other reason than to wish for a better product.

Also, being able to sell to a large customer base does not mean one needs to make low quality products. Nor does it mean that high quality products cannot be manufactured with a low production cost budget. Furthermore, turning a brand from a more narrow market to a mass market doesn't necessarily maximize economic return for the company either.

Again its different for eeryone. You may not care. You may think oh its just another laptop. Well it is. If the corporate initiative of thinkpad is now to be more mass market then thats fine. Naturally the image of thinkpad will change and peoples perspectives will mould with it. Its the same natural process that had built the thinkpad image of solid builds, may change with time with a new perspective based on how the corporate goal of thinkpad wishes itself to be. As fans I can tell you most are disappointed in recent quality of products because thats the image we had grown to know of thinkpad. The next generation will first experience the world through their own eyes and maybe their view of thinkpad will be different entirely because of evolution of the brand.

 

EVERY T400 has these issue. EVERY single one. Its what one can tolerate that matters. Like the fan, older people in their 40s cant hear the ringing whine as its in the 20khz range. Even some young people cant hear it due to ear damage but that does NOT mean its noth there. The fan ringing noise is there on EVERY unit since Lenovo still uses the same CRAP low quality Mfr for its CPU fans. They tried masking this noise by running the FIRST fan speed setting very low so it does not gen this noise. This makes things not as bad as the T60/T61s but once the T400s fan hits the second speed the annoying noise is clearly audible.

 

HA! HA!!!! You my friend have gone done in history as the most IGNORANT laptop user I have ever seen. IBM laptops are LONG DEAD and so are its engineers. One would expect at LEAST EQUAL quality from the past thinkpads but NO the quality has gone DOWN so far that it has reached BUDGET laptop levels like you can find at any retailer like BestBuy. Heck I have seen laptops at BestBuy with BETTER quality than the T400.

 

Nah. I've used the T400 before. The ones I've used didnt have fan issues that I noticed. And I'm very perfectionistic in nature when I want to be. The only flaws I find are the keyboard and some of the build construction on the body. Although looking back at my own T4x is similar on that some parts are a little flexy. However the only major downer in my perspective is the keyboard which I still think is unforgivable

 

you do know that its pretty much the same group of people designing the laptops right. Its the former IBM PC division doing the work theyve been hired to do since the days of IBM. Most of the customer service are also from the former IBM division. In fact I think IBM has a deal that they will continue to support the products for a few years following acquision by lenovo. Which is why youre directed to ibms website for parts.

I dont know what YOUR agenda is, but it seems your critique is not as much for the benefit of the product from a consumer's perspective, but one related to bias against the company that is now financing the brand.

About the products appearing to be lower quality now: thats what I was saying in my post genius. But its mostly its style issues anyways. Insignificant things like mouse button designs and red 'legacy' stripes. Like who cares about this stuff anyway. As long as the laptop works. But its these silly things that builds the perception of quality. Plus as the customers we're surposed to be always right anyway cause we're paying for what we want.

 

You don't need to go around telling everyone who disagrees with you or doesn't know what you're talking about a noob, etc. Just express your point and try to post critique that is worthwhile. No need to be childish.

 

The keyboard does makes the T500 feel cheap.

Last week I used a co-workers Dell Vostro laptop and the keyboard felt so good. I was stunned how good the Vostro keyboard felt. It really made me realize how crappy this keyboard is. Even my previous Inspiron 5150 is better than this keyboard.

 

Why are you worried about why I am agreeing and then saying that these machines have not been an issue. You want me to lie to prove his point or to make you feel better? No way!

My points aren't flawed at all, the only thing flawed is that you are stuck in the past and can't handle the fact that these machines just aren't made to the same specs they once were. They aren't ever going to be either not with them pricing them as they do now. So, the way I see it we all have a choice we can continue to buy them or buy another brand. Whining on this forum won't net you one single solitary thing.

Again the machines we've purchased have been good and we've not had any problems with them. Seems you have a problem with me saying that. Not everyone nitpicks every little thing and not everyone are these loyal Thinkpad Guru's that can't handle the changes that are taking place in the fast pace business world today. I am slated to buy 24 more of these machines in July and will likely buy many more in the coming months. The thing is that the average joes out there don't care about the issues that you all seem to be all so upset about. I think much of it is total nonsense, but oh well if it makes you feel better whine away!

In the past we've have contracts with Dell and HP. I can tell you that the same staff including myself that used those machines find the keyboards just fine. Like I said what are you guys using your feet and elbows to type? LOL I don't think I've ever pressed down hard enough on a keyboard or palm rest to note any flex even on cheap $300 netbooks, which are indeed pretty flimsy by comparison.

 

Yeah, the flex is pretty much unnoticeable if you type normally. Only if you really JAM the keys do you even notice it, and even then, it doesn't feel that flimsy. What bothers me more than the supposed "flex" is the location of the fn key, which is normally where the ctrl key is. This is why I wish I had a T61 keyboard

 

the flex keyboard, the flex palmrest, the screen not IPS..this is the improvement from Lenovo??? why don't they solve the must-have improvement: switch the location ofFn & Ctrl key

 

+1,000.

Previous ThinkPads were two grand and up. Way out of my price range.
The T61 is the first ThinkPad I've owned. Getting an equivalent business laptop of the same period (e.g., Lattitude D630/D830, HP/Compaq 8510p) would have cost me approximately $300-400 more. The same is true now when comparing the T400 to Dell's Latitude E6400, or HP's EliteBook 6930p.

I can get a T400 with WXGA+, camera, Bluetooth, DVD writer, fingerprint reader, MMC-slot, top-flight wireless, a 6-cell battery, almost all the toys, for $900 plus tax. That's a lot of notebook for the money. Factor in the magnesium roll cage and standard FireWire too. (P.S. Already have it on order).

I agree with others, Lenovo needs improvements to its support structure, areas of its website (especially the Outlet), and its logistics (which encompasses order/build/ship, and customer service). However, it's hard to fault the product at the price point it is at.

P.S. iGrim, your insulting tone when you respond to others makes you no friends. If nobody is flaming you in their replies, why not reply back in a mature fashion?

 

Troll alert.

/close thread

 

If your company choice other brand they will be dispointed more for sure. If u ever use Dell or HP laptops you will know what I mean. Just too many issues.

 

I don't disagree with all of the original OPs opinions but for the most part would say it's a bit of an exaggeration and the same engineers and design team are actually in place from several years ago -- nothing changed with the transition and I know enough people that work there to state this as fact. That said, I will say that 3 - 6 years ago ThinkPads were the undisputed best business laptops, but now the competition (HP, Toshiba, Dell) have products that are competitive.

The leaked T400s that some will have seen is basically going to attempt to put Lenovo clearly back ahead again in terms of a $1,200 flagship business notebook.

 

The irony.

 

The company. not you, used to pay 3 times more for the those laptops. Think it over before whining.

Your third point is completely invalid. Get to know it more.

 

I'd disagree with that as going too far to the other end.

If you order from Dell or HP's business divisions, you're getting good kit. The earlier Latitude D630 and D830 laptops (prior to the new E-series) are among the finest systems I know, easily on par with the T61 line at the time. The E-series models are decent, too. HP's Business notebooks are similarly well-done. I've dealt with Dell's corporate/education division for a number of years; aside from a year-and-a-half period or so where they outsourced business support (the backlash caused them to make it domestic in North America again) I've had good experiences.

It's more often than not a matter of home-vs-business lines. If you compare much of Dell's home Inspiron line to the T-series, you'll come up short (though they're not bad notebooks). Compare HP's Pavilion laptops, and you'll come up shorter, IMHO.

I think the ThinkPads currently win on price (unless you're ordering in volume). I actually think Dell Business wins in support. As for product, the Latitude E6400 and the T400 are pretty close to each other, as is the E6500 and the T500.

 

I've heard so many bad things about Lenovo's T-series in the past few days (especially on Lenovo's forums) that I don't think I want one for school anymore.

 

This thread is ridiculous, you aren't going to convince him of anything! Its his opinion. If I could find a better laptop with better specs for a lesser price I would have bought it, not to mention quality. If you hate the screens, buy a monitor.

 

Be careful. Whiners > everyone else on forums. Not that people don't have legitimate beef, but a thread like this one should be ignored.

 

Considering how much it costs now, the t400 is pretty much a budget laptop. For the price i paid for mine, I would only be able to get a refurbished latitude or some consumer grade hp/dell/acer. I think for the price, it is an awesome laptop. The only problems I have with is the crappy screen and keyboard, which lenovo swapped out for me with an older model. A more fair comparison would be comparing an old thinkpad with something like x301, which is similar in price.

 

I was making the point you were contradicting yourself and that you hadnt read his tone correctly, since hes not on your side.

Oh the irony that comes with the second paragraph. Why are you whining here again? Honestly. If youre going to debate online, you should completely skip the entire 'stop whining online cause it wont change a thing' line of arguments. You are doing the exact same thing and not realizing it.

Are you kidding. If you are unable to take certain opinion about certain things in life cause it may bother you then you should especially lay off areas where free discussion takes place i.e a forum. For me personally I've been very fair with my critique of the T400, a laptop I will be getting myself too regardless to replace my current T series from a few years ago. It is NOT too much to ask as a consumer for a product that has a proper keyboard that doesnt feel cheap and echos when you type on it cause its empty below, and one that has a centered screen on the laptop of all things. There are other styling issues also.

 

yea thinkpads have become cheaper now. But what people are forgetting is all laptops from all brands are equally cheaper. Its merely because of improvements in technology and economies of scale. Perhaps the only thing true anymore is the price margin between thinkpads and other brands may have diminished significantly. This is not a bad thing, if they are able to keep the quality of previous products but down the price.

 

Quantity vs Quality

Lenovo has changed their sales/marketing target markets which has resulted in a lower perceived/real quality product.

Lenovo target market of today = Budget laptop for the masses

Lenovo target market of yesterday = Desktop replacement and Business notebook

 

The T61 volume control keys do not longer control the hardware (the speakers) but rather they command the software to control the sound. This is annoying because if I'm playing a game and I want to lower/raise the volume I need to Alt+Tab to Windows and adjust it accordingly.

My T61 is a lot flexy than my T42p, the keyboard is horrible in comparison to the point that I miss a lot my NMB keyboard.

But considering the price new Thinkpads costs these days it's understandable to have these issues with quality degrading.

 

I too agree that the quality has dropped in some areas, but as others have said, the cost to the consumer has gone WAY down to what they used to cost. You could get a brand new W700 with some goodies in it, and that would just about equal the starting price for a new T series several years ago. Now, you can get a good T series for about $900 and change. Times change, and unfortuanlly so does quality, price, etc.

 

True, but part of that is related to technological improvements and economies of scale. All laptops from all brands have been getting cheaper. I don't know if its so much as its a purposeful corporate strategy to make more affordable laptops on their part, as it is merely the cost have gone down significantly. But of course on top of this it does appear that they are moving more mass market also. Personally I'd like them to keep it a more exclusive brand. Its like mercedes. You keep it high class, keep it expensive. It stll sells. Its just a different strategy and different market. Mass market isnt always better.

 

and instead you'll buy a.... ?

 

thats not entirely true. You can get a loaded T400 nowadays for $800-900, while HP EliteBooks with same specs cost about $1500, Sony Z series is 2k-3k for decent machine, Panasonic is 2k+ and a business Fujitsu is at least $1300. So there are still expensive business laptops out there, Lenovo just is just probably the cheapest one of them all.

 

I was referring to the fact the price on technology goods especially laptops have gone down with time, as should be obvious. I also stated previously that the issue had become related to price margin differences between thinkpads now and its competitors. This is in response to those complaining that thinkpads of the past cost a lot more and so they prefer thinkpads now cuz they are cheaper, and then to justify the lower product quality as being a cost reduction.

 

i dont get the whole "old thinkpads were great and the new ones are crap" sentiment.

my mom works for IBM and brings home her old IBM branded Thinkpad once in a while, and that thing is no where near as sturdy as my T400.

people exaggerate too much.

 

Can't wait. My ThinkPad journey has been from 600x (still have it) to T23 (used to be at work) to T42 (still have it) to T60 (one at home and another one at work) and now waiting for T400s release. So far I haven't been disappointed yet, and hope the same will continue with T400s. These machines bulletproof. T60 (15” model) had some palm rest flex around IBM logo which was easily fixed by loosing up and tightening hard drive cover while holding it out. Oh, and tech support is bar none. Last month I called them up with a few problems on Thursday. Friday morning I had a pre-paid return UPS box at my doorsteps. Monday I shipped it out to Lenovo (their contractor Solectron @ NC), and Wednesday by 9 a.m. I had it back all fixed 100%. That’s a whooping 2-day turn around door-to-door. From what I hear, it takes that long for other laptop vendors to get someone from tech support on the phone

 

which model was it.

some were crap. they've had their ups ad downs.

styling issues aside, the t400 is tangibly unnecessarily crap due to crappy flexy keyboard. im still getting it though.

 

Just got my T400 a few days ago, and I wanna chime in here. This is my first IBM/Lenovo/Thinkpad experience. I, too, was a bit hesitant in ordering at first, because I had seen all the threads regarding build quality issues. I needed a matte screen display, though, so I bit the bullet.

And I am happy to say that I am thoroughly satisfied with my new laptop. My best description would be "solid". But keep in mind I have no experience with the "Thinkpads of yore" and thus cannot compare to those. But compared to the consumer/retail-type laptops I've had over the years, my T400's overall build quality is the best I've had.

+ my keyboard is very solid, there's no "flex" to speak of. This thing is a joy to type on. Now I know why the Thinkpad keyboards are spoken so highly about. No flex on palmrest areas, either.

+ love the trackpoint and touchpad, both are very responsive, smooth and precise.

+ the quietest/coolest laptop I've ever had. Regarding "whine", the only perceptible noise I can hear from mine is when I press my ear RIGHT UP against the surface of the machine, then I can hear a faint "sizzle" of the electronics. Obviously, this is not how I use my laptop, so as far as I'm concerned it is completely dead silent (and using a SSD helps, too). The fan makes no whir or anything... I'm truly amazed.

+ crisp, clear, matte WXGA+ CCFL screen with uniform lighting. The off-center alignment was a slight oddity when I first saw it, but otherwise has no affect on my computing experience. Nothing more than a quirk in my opinion, nowhere near being a con.

+ for me, my order went really quickly. Ordered on June 2nd, it shipped on June 6th, and I got it on June 10th. The "estimated ship date" when I ordered was June 12th.

- my main gripe would be the amount of bloatware that was pre-loaded for factory status. But that doesn't matter to me any more, as I did a clean install of Windows XP and have NONE of the Thinkpad software present.

- another small gripe for me is I prefer laptops to have the ctrl key on the left, but they've made the left ctrl key a bit fatter to compensate, and it has not bothered me thusfar.

All in all, a good start to me being a Thinkpad user.

 

There is a type of very very high pitched faint noise that EVERY computer makes, and then there is a very obvious somewhat high pitched noise that some current thinkpads make. The keyboard flex is definitely there, but usually you won't notice it unless you press the keyboard down really hard on purpose, especially the left side.

 

Any of you who are currently trying to figure out if you're in the market for a lenovo: please see through the noise. The noise of trolling, fanboyish, or/and lenovo hate.

Read and be critical and look at who posts what. You will notice who is pretty fair about all of this.

 

The only built quality issue ive had with the T500 is that theres flex on the ultrabay area, the expresscard area, and the rubber paint on the lcd cover is wearing out. Ive had the "flexy" keyboard, and honestly, unless I went out and look for it, it doesnt matter. Still, i went and got a replacement anyways, and I kinda of perfer the new keyboard trackpoint buttons better.

 

iGrim, as I mentioned in another one of your threads, your attitude is just horrible. Not only do you refuse to acknowledge other opinions/facts, but you deride those who disagree with you - and provide more evidence - as ignorant.

Anyway, my T500 has none of the issues that you have mentioned above, except the off-center screen, which honestly, I do not mind at all.

I am very, very critical of noise, and before buying, I was very worried about the alleged "CPU whine." I'm happy to say that I have not detected any CPU whine whatsoever (and the same in my friend's T400), and the Thinkpad fan is more quiet than any other laptop's fan that I have ever used (which includes Sonys, Averatecs, HPs, Dells, a Toshiba, a T60 and a T43).

And before you claim that I have hearing issues, I am 16, and my ears are perfectly fine. I can even hear the slight high-pitched whine from one of my old desktops, which my dad cannot (which is why he is using it still...).

I am also quite critical of sound quality. Even though I rarely use my Thinkpad's speakers for music, I have compared it side to side with my dad's T60. The speakers are pretty much the same - no improvement, no degradation.

The touchpad, while still on the small side, is not laggy at all in my usage.

Likewise, the TrackPoint is perfectly fine as well. I have not had any of the issues you claim to have.

My keyboard does flex slightly, on the Esc button and F1 key. But other than that, it's rock solid. I think I can deal with the minor flex there, as it's not like I use those keys in regular typing.

In short, you can have your opinions, but I can say that those issues are definitely not present in all, or most Thinkpads.