Thoughts On The ThinkPad L Series

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ThinkPad-Laptop-Core-Mobility-Radeon,10223.html

Talk about brand dilution. I've always loved the ThinkPad brand and the quality of ThinkPads that Lenovo has maintained over the years. However it seems the launching of a new ThinkPad line is really doing nothing but adding even more product confusion and complexity to a product line up that is already somewhat muddled.

Am I the only one under the impression that perhaps simplifying the product lineup might do Lenovo more good than just endlessly diversifying? Hell i'm a geek and it still took me a good while to figure out the exact practical differences between the current SL, R, T, etc. In that case I can only imagine how long it would take for someone less tech savvy. It doesn't help that Lenovo's product descriptions for each lineup are so vague.

 

L-series = low-end
T-series = medium-end
W-series = high-end
SL-series = discontinued
R-series = discontinued

 

It isn't that complicated:

The R serie seems dead. They're selling the leftover r400-r500.
The SL serie for small business is refreshed and renamed, becoming the L serie. Low cost basic computers.
The Edge serie is basically the same as the SL/L serie, but with a shiny look
The T serie stays the same. Reliable and rugged.
The X serie is for the ultraportable
The W serie is for the powerhouse workstations.

 

But then the Edge series is also technically part of the X series, and (IMO) has a misleading name that sounds like it refers to cutting edge.

If Lenovo can straighten it all out and stop changing things, then yea it'll be great. But for now, I can see how it could be confusing/annoying.

 

R series rock and L series is nothing like the R series it replaces. It is just a SL series re badged.

 

What do you see that leads you to say that?

 

Don't insult my X series !

 

I think you're confused between the X100e, which is technically a part of the X-series, and the Thinkpad Edge 13/14/15, which is a new family. Despite the name, though, the X100e is more similar to the Edge than it is to the other X-series machines, though.

 

Yea.. oops thats exactly what happened. I thought the X100e was part of the Edge series.

 

Oh well, then I guess my R400 is already dated/ dead (series-wise). Maybe it was a mistake not to have bought the newer T series. I saw on some website that the R400 (and the reference was specifically to this machine) was discontinued from March 10, 2010.

 

indeed i think even after a few posts this thread is beginning to suggest the same thing as in my OP. it's easy to simply say a product is in the high/medium/low end of the category. However when it gets down to making a purchasing decision and getting into the details of the thinkpad families it becomes more complicated (this is before even taking lenovo's ideapad line into consideration). especially to the non techie crowd.

 

I do believe the X100e should have been placed in the Edge family, it really complicates things for the consumer, because the X100e really is more similar to the Edge consumer-Thinkpads than the X-series high-end ultraportables.

However, if I am understand correctly, Lenovo is replacing both the SL-series and R-series with the L-series, effectively consolidating part of the mess they have going on. As I posted in the news section,

 

I doubt Lenovo cares about our opinions on this matter. They have done market research, otherwise i doubt they would broaden ThinkPad line.
Personally I dont mind.
For what its worth im probably getting myself SL410/L4xx this summer.
Why? I want ThinkPad support, trackpoint, confidence in my machine. Oh and spill proof keyboard. Price wise no one imo can match what Lenovo has to offer with their SL series at the moment. Now theres uber cheap Vostro 1320 available, but im not sure about its support and warranty optiopn+it doesnt have spill proof keyboard (?) and trackpoint.
As for Edge, well, they look like geared towards females with their rounded corners and shiny exterior. Not a fan of power hungry AMD chips.

And please, spare some of those elitist "Get T400/R400 instead for couple hundred $ more". I dont want to spend couple hundred bucks more, if i wanted id get X200.

 

Fair enough. Some people keep their laptop for a while, so for these people investing a few hundred dollars more for a R400 and T500 is a reasonable choice.

But obviously, there are people whom don't use their laptop long enough to realize this sort of benefits, or are cash strapped then the SL or L series is a logical alternative.

There is obviously the additional possibility of getting a R400 or T400 second hand, which can be had for very reasonable price depending on where you live in the world and which channel you buy it from.

 

Is the build quality on the R series really that much better than the L series? I haven't seen either (substitute the SLx10 for the L) but is it that much better to justify the outdated technology of the R series over the newest L series? (a used T series would be cool for most people, but let's compare new models only since that's what most buyers want to compare)

 

The L series will remain a bit of an unknown until it's released. I'll wait to pass judgment on it. I hope it's not a re-branded SL. I think it's too bad the R series has gone. For someone looking for a solid all-around notebook, the R was a good choice as it offered most of the quality of the T series, but with a lower price. It looks like the T410i has been created to fill these needs, but it's not a CTO machine. You can't configure it nor will buyers have access to coupons.

 

The L series is an updated SL and it looks to have the same body/design. What specifically was bad about the SLx10?

 

From where I am sitting at the moment, the R series (specifically, the R400 and probably the R500) are the value propositions from the ThinkPad lines for certain Asian markets which (in institutional terms) sells well and frankly make a lot sense in the educational segment of the market. I doubt they will remove it from their lineup in a hurry. The anomaly is the T series, specifically, the T400, which is being very quickly replaced by the T410. I guess, they are targeting medium sized companies with this model. The X series remains a "boardroom" machine. What is confusing is the Edge, which is consumer-like but not quite, while the SL is for those who want the ThinkPad but are not willing to pay the slightly higher prices that the better spec'ed R (and new T) series command.

Moreover, again specific to the market that I am referring to (India), there is a perception that the ThinkPad is a niche machine which, as per the article I posted on some other thread, seems to indicate that Lenovo is aware of and is trying to change. I think the SL (or L) and the Edge are being targeted to help them do this. Does this mean that Lenovo is trying to widen the spread of the ThinkPad brand? Perhaps. I don't know how to read this.

Of course, can I prove any of this? Absolutely not. But the informal discussions I have recently had with some of the senior management of Lenovo (in India) indicates as much. (Note that my chats with the mgmt of Lenovo in India were not specifically on this matter - they concerned something else, but this matter did come up in an off-handed manner). So, while interesting, it remains speculative.

And, to specifically address jaakobi's question about whether the R series (again specifically the R400) has a better build than the L series, my perception is (I compared the SL to the R400) that the R400 sports a much better build. I think in some thread lead_org also made a similar observation. But at the end of it all, it is what you make out of it and your perception.

 

Where's the difference in between SL and L ? They use exactly the same case (beside the combo jack).

Just compare this picture:


To the SL510 review pictures here: http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=5365&review=lenovo+thinkpad+sl510

 

Is it chassis flex or materials quality or something else that led you to conclude the R is better built than the SL? and which SL? A SLx10 or SLx00?

If the R was that much better than I certainly hope they improved on the build quality of the L.

 

The L has Displayport while the SL has HDMI.

 

I'll reserve judgment until it's released because until then, it's all speculation. I think the SL series are fine for what they are, they aren't ThinkPads in the traditional sense.

 

Technology changes over time, so does ThinkPad.
Im eager to see new L series. Regarding value etc over time, SL/L series are perfect for those willing to spend as least as possible while getting their first/affordable Thinkpad/business machine. Thats it.
Thats why im not buying T/X series - because they are not perfect at this time, neither spec nor price wise.
Id rather get myself cheapest TP that fits my needs and fills the bill and wait for another year or two to see next refresh of X2xx series with next gen Intel cpu's, cause to be honest Core i that are now shipping are not worth it imo.
And since i dont want to spend premium for C2D machine, ill wait and see for myself how well budget business laptops are built and whether i will really need something that costs couple more hundred bucks for supposedly better quality/performance.

 

The R400 (and that is the only R series machine I am referring to) is a virtual clone of the T400. If the T400 boasts of a better build quality than the SL, then the same applies to the R400. There is a thread here someplace (I'll look it up and post the link a little later) that I think discussed this.

This being said, I don't think it is the case that the SL does not have a decent build quality. Perhaps it does. I have only played around with it on a store counter and have not handled it as I have the R400 over the last month and half. It did not feel as sturdy as the R400. But then this is purely a subjective assessment and that too under very limited conditions.

Edit: See this thread for a build-quality related discussion on the SL 410. Particularly, see posts # 7, 13

Edit 2: And see this comparison chart

 

I have only seen the SL in stores as well. It isn't a bad machine and feels solid enough when you compare it to consumer laptops. However, when you compare it to any traditional thinkpad with a much more rigid chassis you can feel the difference in overall quality of the laptop body.

If you don't move your laptop around a bunch or hold it by the corners all day, then SL is certainly fine. I toss my x200 around...

 

The L412/512 are in the tabook since April 7th. The case has, mm for mm, the same dimension as the corresponding SL*10.

Still some differences:
- standard 3 years warranty
- dockable
- win7 pro and not home premium
- displayport instead of hdmi
- combo audio jack

So it really looks as if Lenovo took the sl*10 case and refreshed the internals, adding some options geared towards business users. I was probably a bit too quick to say that L serie replaces the SL one. It seems instead that Lead org was right about the L-serie replacing the R-serie.

 

The SL series don't have an internal magnesium rollcage or the famous Thinkpad stainless steel hinge.... two of the features that make Thinkpad different from a consumer laptop. L series lack these two features too from what i have been reading.

This is how Lenovo is keeping a lid on the cost of the SL and L series, and therefore the retail price in comparison to the competitors.

The SL series in the guise of SL400 and SL500, suffers a lot more failure around the hinge/chassis around the hinge than a comparable R400 and R500.

So obviously these two features are important in making a large thinkpad strong.

 

The R-series was always "almost" a T, but with design decisions to let it use larger parts (12mm CD rather than 9.5 for example) to save costs, and tended to come wiht lower processor speeds and ram. It was built like a thinkpad.
I have not used a Super Low-end Series, but it does appear the new Low-end Series is just a re-badge. Probably Lenovo decided they wanted to go back to 1-letter series names.

I agree with others on the edge. It is an ideapad with a thinkpad name. I guess it is going after the SOHO buyer by selling it at Best Buy and places like that.

 

Lenovo has a tough task here, to expand upon the ThinkPad brand while maintaining the image of quality. I saw a Edge the other day and I've seen the SL. Both I would say are a step down from what the R series offered in the past.

 

I couldn't agree more! ;-)

 

well lower quality or not, I think I like some of the design features better than my T61p, The volume buttons look more accessible and clean on the side (plus it puts to use the extra wide space on the side). Also I like the power port on the side. It's more accessible and easier to reach it looks like. Also the keyboard looks cleaner, only one top row instead of 2. Also the power button looks attractive, for some reason

Engadget says it feels solid, so maybe they improved on the SL series? Don't know yet.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/22/lenovo-thinkpad-l-series-doesnt-look-or-feel-like-its-made-of

 

Diversifying and giving people options is good, but they need to clearly lay out the differences between each model. Yes, Lenovo, I know this model is powerful and light weight. You say that about EVERY MODEL. Now, what does this model have that the next one doesn't? If they'd only clarify this, then it wouldn't be a problem.

 

To each his own. For me it is all about the traditional ThinkPad feel and overall quality.

I always buy ThinkPads as a secondary or third laptop to my company issued laptop, which for the time being is luckily also a ThinkPad.

But when I buy ThinkPads I stay clear of their lower end/mainstream models like SL and Edge as they combine two things which I am not fond of:

1) The resell value is not great and to my experience there are much fewer people interested in buying these models second hand. Many people buying ThinkPads second hand are fairly knowledgeable about ThinkPads and chances are they prefer T, X, W and maybe R-series.

2) They don't carry all of the traditional ThinkPad traits which I prefer.

Point 1 is a big issue as I frequently change my ThinkPads and hence would like to "get rid of" the old one as quickly as possible and at a decent selling price. This is more challenging with Edge, SL and even to some extent the R-series.

One can argue that the depreciation will not be great either when the price of a new SL or Edge is lower from the beginning. This may be true to an extent, but one has to find a buyer for it as well.

 

I kinda agree with reselling value, but usually those, who buy SL/L/Edge wont be probably the die hard ThinkPaders and most likely either businesses buying in bulk and not caring about reselling value or simply customers like your average Joe that dont simply care about reselling laptop for loads of money expecting it to last as long as other non business laptops have lasted them.
My 2 cents.

On a side note, I had a chance to play a bit with SL510 this spring and in comparison to my current R400 (see list of problems here - http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo-ibm/526468-r400-quick-overview-build-quality-experience.html) that SL510 wasnt worse, it was well built and not screaking anywhere. Sure it didnt have LCD rollcage and allowed for ripples to appear on LCD when pushed bit harder, but neither do new standart T series have one.
So, IMO while its cheaper and somewhat lower quality it still delivers for basic users exactly what they need - ugly black box with red trackpoint to play with

 

once your R400 gets fixed or exchanged, then you should make the comparison between your R400 and your SL510 that you have used.

T410 has a screen magnesium rollcage, while the T510 and W510 has moved to a Glass Fiber Composite Plastic/Carbon Fiber Composite Plastic casing (also used on X30x/T4x0s machines), which basically replaced the internal magnesium rollcage.

SL series used a simple ABS/PC casing frame which is okay for desktop use, but they are not particular strong.

 

About comparison - I hope it is going to happen sooner than I expect, so far I dont have high expectations considering local management.

Didnt know that T410 kept lcd rollcage, I thought that it had only mobo rollcage, thanks for pointing that out!
Now T410 starts to look much better laptop than before.

As long as its used as desktop replacement it probably doesnt matter that much what kind of LCD protection technology laptop uses, IMO.

 

that is true hence why R500 and R6x with 14/15/15.4 inches variants used the PC/ABS plastic, since they were considered a desktop replacement model.

 

Hmmm... Are these the main reasons people buy Thinkpads? Resell value and reliability? I've only owned a Thinkpad 600E (4 years) and a Dell Inspiron 8600 (6 years), and I'm not sure either was more reliable than the other. They both had mechanical failures, electronic failures, etc. The Thinkpad's power connector broke, but the Dell's never did. The Thinkpad's LCD failed multiple times, the Dell's never did. The Dell's hinge broke multiple times, the Thinkpad's never did. Both had small stuff like covers break. Hmmmm.......

 

No. I don't think that resell value plays a big part amongst the bulk of ThinkPad buyers. For me it does however. While you keep your laptops for 4-6 years, I keep them for 2-12 months (my private ones) before replacing it with a new or second hand ThinkPad. I've gone through more than 30 ThinkPads and other users here on NBR have had many thinkpads as well and replace them or add to the collection quite frequently.

Reliability? Yes. However there is more to it than that. The main reasons why I buy ThinkPads can be found here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/2758036-post27.html

I do keep my work issued ThinkPads for a much longer time i.e. 2-3 years and they are used very extensively and often in tough conditions. Never had an actual failure yet (knock on wood).

 

@JabbaJabba...I like your list of reasons why you buy ThinkPads and I concur!

 

No, it doesn't. The T410 has a "High Elasticity PolyCarbonate" lid, but no roll cage. It does have a magnesium frame (aka. "ThinkPad Roll Cage") in the base, but not in the lid.

 

really. I am always under the impression that the T410 kept the magnesium rollcage for the screen. I will have a closer look at the hardware manual.

P.S. ThinkRob is right, there is no magnesium rollcage for the top case and instead of the GFRP like the W510/T510 uses for the top case, the T410 make do with a cheapo SEPC.

 

So, does this make the T410 structurally weaker than its predecessors - T/R400?

 

You probably wouldn't want to step on it. For normal use the SEPC is okay. Personally i don't think the T410's screen can take the following torture.

YouTube - ThinkPad R61????????(ThinkPad R61 Torture testing by a bike)

I am quite surprised that the T410 uses SEPC rather than the GFRP like the T410s, T510 and W510.

 

For the record, Lenovos score poorly in reliability as measured by malfunction rates. I imagine this isn't because of Thinkpads, though.

http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/SquareTrade_laptop_reliability_1109.pdf

 

Interesting read. While better than hear say, I don't find it very scientific as it does not provide details of the so-called failures.

In any event, as you say, I do not believe ThinkPads contribute much to the relatively high Lenovo failure rates.

While this is an even less scientific statement I can tell you that of all the ThinkPads I have had, I am yet to have one fail on me (knock on wood) despite extensive use and harsh conditions at times.

 

@JabbaJabba...quick question...of the machines listed in your sig, which ones do you use the most? And, if you don't mind sharing, how do you use them...i.e.,under what conditions...and for executing what kind of activities (Office docs, web-related work, SW development etc.)?

Thanks

 

I have sold most of my ThinkPads and I am now down to only 2: Company issued X61s which is used for all work related tasks, all my traveling and when I slouch on the couch. T500 for home use.

As work takes up most of the day my X61s is used the most. Soon this will probably be replaced by a HP Elitebook 2540p as it is time to change laptops at work. I have just ordered a X201 Tablet as well to replace my T500.

 

OK. Thanks. I was just curious. I always want to know how owners of two of more laptops use their machines!

One of the reasons I geenrally prefer to have one machine for my use is that I can't seem to find any scenario where I can use two machines - though I will be getting a second machine quite soon though it will not be a SL series machine, which I saw recently as a Lenovo shop here. I did not like the keyboard for one.