Undue Criticism? Thoughts on IBM, Lenovo, and the Thinkpad

A short introduction:
I'm typing this on an old 600x, released sometime in 1999. It's in excellent condition, so I think it serves as a reasonable benchmark for the IBM Thinkpad. This was way before IBM said it started outsourcing production of the Thinkpad line, so supposedly I'm typing on a Thinkpad from "the golden era." I have yet to handle a modern Thinkpad, but I’m hoping to finally upgrade to an X200 or T400 in the future.

Even before IBM officially sold the line to Lenovo, I believe Thinkpads were already being made in China. Anyway, Lenovo has come under a lot of criticism, especially with this article:
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/classic-tech/?p=178

Has Lenovo ruined the Thinkpad?

I don't entirely think so, and I'm definately not a Lenovo fanboy. I don't know how much a Thinkpad cost back in the day, but I'm quite sure you wouldn't be able to get a near top-of-the-line model for less than $2000. So they do cost less, but for most people, that's a good thing. People complain about the X300 being too expensive. Just imagine if Lenovo maintained the supposedly "gold standard" IBM had when they still had their PC division. Perhaps many people on this forum would be deterred by the price alone, and would not own the Thinkpads they type on today. And I could see it already - why buy a much more expensive Thinkpad with unreasonably awesome build quality, when you can get a Dell with adequate build quality for cheaper? Many people don't even appreciate build quality these days. It's all about looks, where the Thinkpad supposedly fails. (I love the timeless look, but that's another story.) "Boring" look+high price tag=fail.

I want to look at things from a practical perspective. The way I see it, a lot of people on this forum nitpick endlessly every aspect and detail of their Thinkpad. Here's are some of the brief observations I made:

LG vs. Samsung
Overhyped. I remember a thread posting how nice the Samsung display looked, but I can't find it anymore. Anyway, a lot of people make a huge deal out of this. It may be true, but I think it was blown out of proportion.

Uneven Rubber Feet
Okay, if the laptop can rock, I can see how this can be annoying. But I remember hearing a complaint how someone could stick a sheet of paper under with marginal resistance. I mean, come on, haha. I think that's a bit much. And I think he was gonna call to have his laptop replaced! Sure it's a premium product, but just get the small feet replacements and don't make a big fuss out of it. Simple fix!

Build Quality/Keyboard
When I read someone complaining about build quality, I imagine them forcefully bending the LCD bezel, pushing hard on the palmrest, or applying all sorts of unnecessary pressure to the Thinkpad. "Oh my gosh...it bends!" Well, uh...yeah. That's, err, a basic fact of physics. I can make the screen bend, push in certain areas of the keyboard, and get certain areas to squeak on my 600x. Yes, keyboard flex on an IBM Thinkpad. I'm pushing very hard, but hey! I produced flex, so that means it sucks. Wrong. I actually type properly, so the keyboard feels rock solid. And who pushes that hard when they type?

I do realize that the new models DO have keyboard flex, and I realize that you don't have to exaggerate as much as me to produce flex. That's one of the reasons why I'm leaning towards the X200, but anyway. Keyboard flex is a legit problem with the new Thinkpads, so I'm not trying to defend that. Lenovo failed there. But what I'm trying to get at is, people just seem too critical. I can do all that chassis/display flex on my brother's Dell, but those complaints seem less documented. I can even do that stuff on a "golden age" 600x! If you're deliberately looking for problems, you're definately gonna find them. Maybe people's standards of the Thinkpad are so high, that anything marginally worse seems absolutely atrocious. That's a good thing, to an extent - to have high standards.

Anyway, I think people are doing the whole "rose-colored glasses" thing too much. I know, I haven't even handled a modern Thinkpad yet, but I can see how the "made in China" image, Lenovo branding, and price may affect the Thinkpad sense of quality. Please correct me if I'm wrong. How much did a Thinkpad cost "back in the day?" How hard do you guys really press to produce chassis flex (not keyboard flex, it's been established already)? I'm not looking to start some flame war here, just some practical discussion. Thanks!

 

I think that the article in TechRepublic is just complete rubbish. Everyone that states that transferring production to China equals lower quality, simply doesn't know what he talks about.

Moving production to China means cheap labor for the company, not lowered standards. If the company (in any area by the way) wants to maintain high standards, it can simply demand them from it sub contractor. And he will charge a price for it. People don't understand that there are endless factories in China, some of them working in very low standards and some of them keep high standards. It is all based on the client demands, and in our example the client is Lenovo.

If Lenovo will design it's laptops with cheap plastic, then the contractor will build them with cheap plastic. If Lenovo will use magnesium, then the contractor will build them with magnesium. If Lenovo will demand that every laptop from the production line will be thrown on the floor to see if it was build well, the contractor will do it. It has nothing to do with China or Mexico or any other place. It's just the demands of the client.

Now for the other question is Lenovo design is better or worse. I think most people tend to be positivley nostalgic on old memories, especially in technology. "The cameras before 25 years produced such beautiful colors", "the sound quality of the first mp3 player was like of a concert hall" and so and so. I think that they are forgetting Thinkpad woes back then, and the Thinkpads are old enough that there maybe a lot of people with a lot of memories.

I think that we get awesome technology, in prices that were a distant dream 20 years ago. I don't think that lenovo is much better or much worse from the competition, and everyone can decide for themselves if they like the specific model or not.

I surely agree that in the case of the Samsung vs. LG monitors things have gone totally out of proportions, since only a few could see the with comparing the screens side by side. If you haven't seen the screens side by side, how can you say one is better?

 

My experience so far is that Lenovo is doing an extremely poor job.

 

By lowering prices to make thinkpads more accessible to consumers it has damaged its reputation to some people but is able to presumably increase sales significantly.

People are expecting Apple quality at Dell prices.

I would not be a thinkpad owner were it not for the lower prices and I love my thinkpads (T60 and T61p). At the same time I deal very little with Lenovo support or any type of tech support so I can't comment on those points but the hardware is still solid to me.

 

I don't understand why you feel qualified to comment on all of these things. Shouldn't you wait until you buy that T400 to make a post like this?

I don't necessarily disagree with your impressions, but I have never seen a modern ThinkPad, so all I have are gut feelings, like you.

 

I think Lenovo is doing a good job. I recently had trouble with my Wifi 5300 card in my T400, the overnighted a new card to me with little to no hassle. I told them the symptoms I had and what I did to try to correct it and sent me a new one. I had similar good experiences with my T42 (which was purchased after the lenovo take over of IBM). I think build quality is still top notch, everything is solid (do agree with keyboard though..bad choice there). Overall, I'm still a very satisfied thinkpad owner.

 

You're right, I really should wait until I actually get a new Thinkpad before making a post like this. But I wanted to get people's impressions, especially after the whole lineup was updated with the new nomenclature and stuff. I'm also waiting for someone who actually has a new Thinkpad to tell me where I'm wrong, so. Yeah, gut feelings can go a long way. But I hope I'm not completely wrong.

 

Stay on-topic in this thread, I deleted several posts. All political discussion is limited to our Political forum in the Off Topic section. Thanks.

 

That, my friend, is the crux of the issue in my opinion. It seems an unreasonable proposition to me to pay 1/3 or less than what ThinkPads used to cost, yet still expect the same level of service and quality. ThinkPads are still a premium product as compared to what other notebooks offer, though probably not as much as they once were. Lenovo is in business to make money. There's probably more money in selling to the masses than well-healed professionals. If you want a premium product, buy a Panasonic, but be prepared to pay a significant premium.

 

I think that anything made in China is going to have the stigma of poor quality attached to it - and that perception isn't undeserved. However, China makes a lot of stuff, and a lot of it is pretty decent.

I just ordered a T400. Even though I would prefer an IBM era thinkpad quality-wise, I don't think I'd be able to get it for the price I got the Lenovo.

 

Based on what, melcron?

 

It's not like we're disagreeing with you melcron, but it'd be nice if you could add onto your comment.

 

I don't know about Lenovo or IBM, but so far, I'm satisfied with my coolest thinkpad and fast services eg. shipping, repair.

Compare to all those HPs and Dells consumer-line in the stores, with flex plastics.

Hmm.

 

Just got a new T400. I'm happy with the machine, overall, but quite unhappy with support. Service, in fact, has been bad enough to make me regret the purchase.

 

The fact that not only has the quality of the product been reduced but the quality of support has been as well. I do not like receiving different stories from each representative I speak to about delays and I do not appreciate being ignored when I email Lenovo regarding my concerns. I also do not understand their shipping order method as many people who placed their orders before me are still waiting and many people who placed their order after me have received their shipping notifications.

I do not find it comforting when I call for support and representatives do not know what a U330 is. I have called regarding a $50 reimbursement as others have done and have been denied, stating "we never do that."

I also do not appreciate the misleading ship dates stated on the website where you find your real ship date weeks after you've placed your order.

I also used a coupon when placing my order and when I called to confirm my order and ship date and they gave me a price $200 higher then what was stated in my email confirmation, claiming I didn't use a coupon. This was corrected after several calls to Lenovo but it served to delay my order several days.

I also find it strange I must gamble in my purchase, hoping the battery life issues are false, corrected or will be corrected in the future. I could have purchased a Dell and received better support and battery life but because I placed an order with Lenovo the discount I would have received with Dell has expired. This laptop is based off new technology which should reduce energy usage... why is the battery life so poor?

And it is obvious this computer is meant to be mobile... why would they even consider adding an obnoxious beep sound when the AC is disconnected? I know this may be corrected with future BIOS updates but the fact remains the U330 seems an unfinished and unrefined product.

 

Well then, I'm glad I haven't needed to engage Lenovo support. I've purchased nine ThinkPads since last October and haven't had a need to contact them about anything. On the other hand, the last four Dells I purchased all had to be returned, which is why I've bought nothing but ThinkPads since.

 

I'm glad you haven't had any trouble and as for Dell returns I'm sorry to hear. I know several people with M1330's that have never had trouble so I guess their is variability in each. The fact still remains the ThinkPad series is not the only indicator of the quality of Lenovo's business practices.

 

For what it's worth, I purchased a brand new T61p from Lenovo in May. It arrived within 20 days of my placing the order. It came exactly as I ordered it.

This is -- by far -- the most solidly built notebook I have ever used. I have owened portale/notebook/laptop computers for just over 20 years (back when you had to unhook the screen section from the laptop case). I have owned and/or used Toshiba's, WinBook's, TI's, and many Dell's. This machine, made in China, is better than any of them.

And, with respects to Chinese manufacturing, I have a huge amount of experience with consulting in the manufacturing industry. Most of the equipment now being used by Chinese manufacturers is new. They are able to hold tolerances closer and more accurately than many American manufacturers with older equipment. Made in China does not automatically mean inferior quality!

My $0.02.

AJ

 

A very interesting insight. Thanks for the info! And I agree the T61p is a beautiful machine, love mine. But I haven't had to deal with CS at all, so can't say anything about them.

 

Coming from China, I think I have a say or two on this made-in-China thing.

It's true that products of China are not of that high quality, but I think it merely apply to product that will be sold in China. Export product are subjected to the company's own standard and a higher national plus the standard of the product where it will be shipped to. Say, do you think US will willingly import some inferior paper or computers just because they's cheap?

One of my friends did her internship at intel in China. TBH I don't know what standard Intel hold in other countries. But in China, it seems pretty high.

I think it comes natural when thinking about something produced by a developing country. Think again that the whole country depends on the industry. Lenovo has the money to purchase the whole IBM PC business. I think they expect to profit from it, not to ruin the brand's name.

 

agree with above ^ comment.
Export goods have much better qualities than the products sold in China.

 

@melcron

sorry to hear about your experience with Lenovo but that could have happened with any other company. You could go with Dell but I'm sure if you browse the forums you will hear of problems other people have had. But that shouldn't affect your decision because of course it might not be the same case with you. If you are unhappy with Lenovo or any company just move onto something else but keep in mind there will always be problems/bad reps at any company

 

It was not many decades ago, when European and North American people used 'Made in Japan' to mean low quality and cheap, how perception have changed..... If you dial a few years back, many people would have never heard of Samsung or LG, but a decade later, LG and Samsung products feel no different to most people, as either GE or Westinghouse goods that you may still have lying around your house.

The only constant is change.

 

Being a Thinkpad owner and a lenovo customer for a pretty short period I'd say I'm pissed with the way Lenovo handled things. I'm hoping to get a refund soon but it has been a long drawn process on Lenovo's part.

The OP is not correct about the issues he raised. LG vs Samsung was a worthwhile debate. Now that I think of it the Thinkpad screen sucked no matter what panel you use LG / Samsung. My old Dell 510m has a better panel!

The uneven rubbers at the bottom of the notebook, well I'd like to see you own a machine with such a problem and not complain.

Regarding the support, the general outlook is that it sucks. I've been calling the CS for the past week and have been getting vague answers. I'm sorry the world doesn't work on vague answers.

 

Lenovo? IBM? They are one in the same. Lenovo assembles the ThinkPad notebooks in China with parts from around the world (mostly Asia). So geographically, China is a sweet spot -- with cheap-labor. The [North American] sales desk is in Toronto, Canada (Lenovo employees) and the tech support desk is in Atlanta, Georgia USA (IBM employees). The repair Depot is in Memphis, Tennessee USA (IBM employees). So, don't be too fast to label Lenovo as a 'China' company. At least their help desk is not in Bangalore, India (no offense to anyone intended).

Over the years I have owned several ThinkPads -- a T20, two T30's, T42p, T61 & T400. They have all been great!!! The T42p has been sent in for warranty repair three times over the past three + years. It was picked-up by DHL at my front door and I was never without it for more than 3 consecutive days -- no issues whatsoever! Now, that is first rate warranty support service! My mom has a Dell. I have had an issue with their tech support desk for warranty support issues on every-single call I have every placed with them.

And now, (made in China) ThinkPads are ~30% off on the Lenovo website -- something you rarely saw on the old IBM ThinkPad website. Quality! Value! Service and support (provided in America)! All the reasons I just purchased my new T400 from Lenovo. A no-brainer!!!

 

Well, after having had a very mixed experience dealing with Lenovo in the pursuit of my new T61, I'd have to describe it as being much like dealing with an insurance claim. Regardless of the reputation of the Ins. Co.(Allstate,State Farm, ect., ect.) its the adjuster that is actually assigned to your case that can make the process either bearable or requiring Valium therapy. I've read so many posts describing different expieriences with Lenovo that I really think it comes down to the luck of the draw. One thing I have to say is the configuration I got on my T61(as shown in signiture) was acquired for just under $1000, a full $400 cheaper than anybody else, and if the Lenovo build quality is not judged to be superior, I would certainly have to conclude that it is not inferior.