W500 Reference, Test and Review

Updates:11/25/08
1) W500 has the V5700 GPU see explanation here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=319216
Updates:11/05/08
1)Viewperf 10.0 Shootout! Results in Viewperf Section below.
Updates: 11/1/08
1) Issues and Fixes
Updates: 10/20/08
1) Cinebench scores
Updates: 10/18/08
1) New PCMark Vantage scores Aero vs. Classic
2) GPU-Z core and memory clock reading bug

I thought I should contribute something back to the forum after learning so much from you guys. Thanks!

Issues and Fixes
a)Keyboard Flex.
From Day one, I was unhappy with the keyboard flex. I had read about it in this forum, early T500 review and was prepared for it. But I was unhappy because it is really a leap (not step) backward for Lenovo with the new but flawed keyboard design.
Fix: Don’t make excuses for Lenovo. Get a replacement T60/T61 NMB keyboard FRU #42T3143. The new NMB keyboard flexes and the FRU is 42T3937. (See pics at http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=313091[/div]) b)Display Driver Some users have experienced BSOD when connecting their notebooks to external monitors. Fix: Update your display driver to release 3. One user reported that this update works for him/her. I am using display driver release 3 and I’ve not had a BSOD when connecting my notebook to an external monitor. XP driver: http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/s...ww-307.ibm.com/pc/support/si...cid=MIGR-70417

c)ATI FireGL V5700 misidentified
Catalyst Control Center and other software have misidentified the FireGL as the HD3650.
Fix: BIOS version 1.18 fixes the problem. Links are here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=316204

d)‘CPU Whine’
After two weeks of using the W500, it suddenly came down with the dreaded ‘CPU Whine’. IMO, it’s not the CPU that’s whining but the inductors or capacitors on the motherboard that is whining. Many others in this forum have experienced this ‘CPU Whine’ and it sounds like a high frequency ring/buzz coming from the battery or top left of the keyboard.
Fix: Best way to fix it is to locate the buzzing inductor (if it’s an inductor that’s buzzing and not a capacitor) and put a dollop of hot glue, lacquer or RTV on it. However, the motherboard is not that easily accessible and will need disassembly of the heatsink and brackets to get to the offending inductor (see pic below).
Second way is to use the integrated Bluetooth with a wireless mouse if you have one. I found that it lowered the noise level of the buzz (when running on Vista and XP) by changing the PCI bus throttle level.
Here are more ‘fixes’: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=67338
Update: I have just disabled CPU Power Management and PCI Bus Power Management under BIOS > Config > Power (fix in the thread above by wswartzendruber) and the whining is gone!

1.Configuration and Physical Description

W500 4058CTO
Intel Core2 Duo Processor T9400 2.53 GHz
Intel Cantiga GM45 motherboard chipset
Intel ICH9M AHCI controller
15.4” WSXGA+ 1680 x 1050 pixels
3 GB PC3-8500 1067 MHz 2 Dimm RAM
ATI Mobility FireGL V5700 512 MB DDR3 VRAM
250 GB 5400 rpm HDD - Fujitsu MHZ2250BH G1
Intel 5300 WiFi
Integrated Bluetooth
AT&T WiWAN (Ericsson F3507g)
Sony 6-cell battery
Vista Business 32-bit

Previous notebooks owned:
a)2002 IBM Thinkpad T21 (mother board retired, but hard disk still in use!)
b)2004 IBM Thinkpad T41, Intel 1.4 GHz , 2 GB RAM, 14” 1024 x 728 LCD (still in use, but mother board dying)

Design and build quality
Over the years, the Thinkpad design hasn’t changed much. The exterior looks almost the same as the T41 except it is now wider because the W500 has a 15.4” widescreen. It doesn’t look flashy or enticing and some have described it as boring unlike the newly introduced Macbooks. And I agree with them. Unpacking the notebook from the box didn’t make my heart skip a beat or fill my brain with endorphins. Its familiar design merely reminded me to get things going on the new notebook quickly. I think Thinkpads aren’t purchased primarily for aesthetic appeal. Most would not buy a Thinkpad for its looks but rather for what it can do.

The build quality seems to be on par or similar to its predecessors except the keyboard. All the complaints on keyboard flex are real. My T41 doesn’t flex as easily as the keyboard on the W500 especially on the left top corner as many have pointed out in forums. It is real, it is there, and I hope, against a small probability for its fulfillment, that Lenovo replaces our keyboards. I have heard from a reliable source in Taiwan that Lenovo had relaxed their specifications for some critical OEM parts (like the RAM) and the keyboard could be proof of this happening. I am disappointed but completely understand that Lenovo has to do this in order to become competitive in the marketplace. Perhaps this will be my last Thinkpad.

LCD
WSXGA+ or 1680 x 1050 resolution is a little bit too high for me maybe because I’m not used to it yet (remember I’m coming from a 1078 x 728 T41). The fonts are small but readable with WSXGA+. Straight out of the box, on IE, the font size is around 1 mm tall. With WUXGA LCD screens I can imagine that the fonts would be close to unreadable. However with WSXGA+ screens, a little bit of adjustment of font and window size, would allow one to fit Word and IE side by side and see text on both pretty well. Fortunately there are no stuck or dead pixels on my LCD. You can use the EIZO monitor test for this ( http://www.eizo.de/pool/files/de/Eizo_Monitortest.zip). Running Monitor Asset Manager ( http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm) tells me that my LCD monitor model is LP154W02-TL06, a LG Philips LCD, manufactured in 2005 ISO week 0!? There are reports that LG monitors are better than Samsung monitors so I’m glad I have a LG Philips monitor but the year 2005 manufacturing date seriously negates that advantage (Everest Ultimate Edition gives me the same data from the registry). Are the whites white and the greys grey? Frankly, after less than half an hour looking at the LCD, I couldn’t care less.

WiFi, Bluetooth, WiWAN, CD-RW, speakers, fan and HDD
The Intel 5300 card has a 3x3 antenna configuration and that really helps to get a good signal from any wireless router or access point. The integrated Bluetooth is really a plus if you have a wireless mouse. I use the Microsoft Wireless Notebook Presenter Mouse 8000 as a daily mouse and for weekly presentations. I tried using presentation mode on the mouse ~20ft away through a closed door and it works. The integrated Bluetooth antenna is better or at least on par with the supplied USB antenna from Microsoft. WiWAN is sold as the AT&T Mobile Broadband Wireless WWAN option. I didn’t initially choose this accessory but some threads in this forum made me realize that the WiWan card had built in GPS. I have an external USB GPS receiver but the thought that I could have integrated GPS and 3G Broadband for $30 sealed the deal. The integrated GPS works reasonably well and I could pick up 5 satellites when using it in the car. CD-RW/DVD is noisy when it spins up a disc and the speakers are decent and an improvement over the speakers on my T41 that were located on the bottom front of the notebook. The fan on the W500 is awfully quiet although it spins at the 4/6 setting. I’m just afraid that the fan isn’t spinning fast enough to provide adequate cooling to the CPU and GPU. HDD is quiet too.

OS
Although preinstalled was Vista Business Service Pack 1, on connecting to the internet, Updates downloaded ~ 350 MB worth of updates! The software/bloatware and services that came preinstalled were disabled manually either using services.msc and/or msconfig. Check with http://www.sysinfo.org/ and http://www.speedyvista.com/services.php to decide which startup utilities and services to disable. There are many and disabling them makes Vista startup faster after login. I tried readyboost with a 2 GB Sandisk SD card and it was absolutely horrible. Readyboost and Superfetch (Vista features) keeps accessing my hard drive and SD card after login for around 5 mins and slows down the system. In addition, the Regback utility on Vista scans the registry and makes a backup copy of it after the login. So readyboost and superfetch services were disabled of course. I also disabled Aero, customized Start and Themes to classic windows for a more familiar interface. I think tweaking Vista improves it but some think that it defeats the purpose of having Vista in the first place! I somewhat agree. I’ll also install Win XP in the future so check back to see how easy or difficult it is to install Win XP (and how Win XP performs of course)!

Pros

• Good old Thinkpad design

• Did I mention the Thinkpad design already?

Cons

• Keyboard Flex (and annoying ‘hollow’ sounding noise because of the flex)

• Vista (if untweaked)

• Age and reliability of OEM parts questionable

All the following benchmark tests were carried out with maximum performance power setting unless otherwise specified. Also my V5700 driver is release version 2 from Lenovo. Version 3 is out, but since it’s not official yet, I didn’t install the new version.

2.WPrime speed test (http://www.wprime.net/ )

Idle equilibrium temperature with maximum performance power setting (measured with Everest Ultimate Edition http://www.lavalys.com/products/overview.php?pid=3&ps=UE&lang=en ):
Ambient temperature: ~26˚C
CPU: 44˚C
CPU core #1: 41˚C
CPU core #2: 41˚C
GPU: 45˚C

Wprime v1.55
32M Benchmark: 30.548 secs 2 thread
Maximum temperature
CPU: 56˚C
CPU core #1: 57˚C
CPU core #2: 53˚C
GPU: 49˚C

WPrime v2.00
32M Benchmark: 30.982 secs 2 thread
Maximum temperature
CPU: 54˚C
CPU core #1: 56˚C
CPU core #2: 54˚C
GPU: 49˚C

The scores are consistent with what others have measured on the T9400 processor. Perhaps CPU core #1 is used more than CPU core #2 leading to higher maximum temperature for #1. Or the thermal paste under the heatsink is not applied uniformly. I’ll probably reapply the thermal paste in the future and see whether it makes a difference to the overall temperature and to the different cores.

3.CPU-Z (http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php )

CPU-Z just tells you what kind of processor you have ‘under the hood’ without actually opening the hood.

When Idle.

When Maxed out.

4.Techpowerup GPU-Z (http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/ )

Although GPU-Z shows an ATI Radeon logo, running ATI’s Catalyst Control Center will show an ATI FireGL logo. This will confirm that you have a FireGL V5700, according to Lenovo.





Updated: 10/18/08>>>>>

[/URL]There is a bug in the GPU-Z software. Enabling ATI powerplay in CCC allows CCC to control the core and memory clocks according to graphics load. At idle the core and memory speeds measured by Everest are 110 and 405 MHz respectively while that measured by GPU-Z are 297 and 346 MHz respectively.



Running a graphics demo program like http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/

taxes the GPU and the core and memory speeds measured by Everest increase to 594 and 693 MHz respectively while the speeds measured by GPU-Z are pegged at 297 and 346 MHz. I get the same pegged readings with 3DMark06 so be careful interpreting results from GPU-Z and 3DMark06! <<<<< 5.3Dmark06 (http://www.futuremark.com/products/...]http://www.futuremark.com/products/pcmark05/ )

Compared to the T9600, the T9400 will give a lower score on PCmark05 as expected – 6434 marks. A faster HDD would probably increase this score a little. I thought that since Readyboost was supposed to improve file access times I would give PCmark05 a go with Readyboost service started and a 2GB Sandisk SD card inserted in the card reader. Turns out that Readyboost lowers the score to 5792 marks! I’m definitely turning off Readyboost.



Top: Without Readyboost, Bottom: With Readyboost!

[/URL] 7.PCMark Vantage (http://www.futuremark.com/products/pcmarkvantage/

) Updated: 10/18/08>>>>> PCMark Vantage is a benchmark for systems running Vista 32 and 64 bit OS. You can’t use the scores from PCMark Vantage to compare with the PCMark05 scores, so it’s here just for future reference: 4060 @ 1024 x 768 run with Windows Aero disabled. I also ran PCMark Vantage with Windows Aero enabled (Thanks to Mikee99 for bringing up this argument about enabling and disabling Windows Aero). As you can see there seems to be a marginal drop in score with Windows Aero enabled. I don’t know what the scale is for these scores so this drop could mean nothing or something. Windows Aero enabled 4015 points! However, since I will be using this notebook for some 3D CAD work, it is recommended that Windows Aero be disabled. Windows Aero when enabled takes up significant GPU memory and horsepower ( http://www.spec.org/gwpg/publish/vi...net.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/aa905075.aspx), so I'm assuming that it will hog that much GPU memory. Also because of this new architechture, one must also be careful when comparing the SPECviewperf 10 scores below to scores obtained with Win XP. Win XP doesn’t have the Desktop Windows Manager to hog up the GPU and so you will get higher scores.

<<<<<

8.SPECviewperf 10 (http://www.spec.org/gwpg/gpc.static/vp10info.html )

Viewperf 10 is a benchmark for 3D CAD applications. Since W500 has the ATI FireGL V5700 graphics chipset, it should do well for this test. My test was carried out at 1280 x 1204 with Aero disabled (separate test with WDM disabled did not produce a different score) and here’s where you can compare your result with other graphics cards (desktop)- http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/workstation-graphics-charts-2008/benchmarks,3.html . The viewperf 10 benchmark was also pretty hard on the CPU. Maximum temperature measured:
CPU: 67˚C
CPU core #1: 69˚C
CPU core #2: 68˚C
GPU: 70˚C



The Mobility FireGL V5700 is not ISV certified by the vendors yet and I've read in other forums that certain 3D functionalities have to be disabled in order for the software to run on the W500. I will be installing Win XP and running Solidworks in the near future and I will update my findings here.

[/URL]Here are the results of the Viewperf 10.0 shooooootout!



Updated: 10/20/08>>>>>

9.Cinebench R10 (http://www.maxon.net/pages/download/cinebench_e.html)

Cinebench scores supposedly are cross-OS compatible, so you can use these scores to compare between a W500 and a Macbook Pro for example. Other CPU scores can be found at http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile...note=0&month=&or=0&search=&sort=cinebench10_s . Here’s a score for the Macbook Pro: http://youtube.com/?v=hSZmZfTr8Qw .

Single CPU score: 2832
Multiple CPU score: 5246
OpenGL score: 5171



<<<<<

10.Conclusions

The W500 will undoubtedly be a top notebook IF Lenovo fixes the keyboard. As I type these words, the keyboard is bouncing up and down, and sounding like a trampoline. Because it’s a new series, it has issues with drivers and hardware. If you can, wait a couple of months. Finally, its quiet and unassuming character will keep your fellow colleagues away from your cubicle while they fawn over the dude with the new Macbook. Work in peace.[/B]

 

Very, very thanks, for this great work!

 

Great job and Excellent review.

 

Thanks for the contribution!

 

It's a common misconception that disabling Vista Aero will improve performance. When having Aero on, the drawing of the GUI is offloaded from the CPU and placed on the GPU.

Do a test of it. Try moving windows around and using your system. On my main system, with Aero off, my CPU spikes a lot when performing certain actions, whereas with Aero on, the CPU does not spike.

I will, however, agree with Superfetch. Superfetch is beneficial if you don't shut your system down or hibernate it, as the most frequently used programs are already cached in RAM. However, if you do the above, then in my experience, it will do more harm than good.

Now obviously, Lenovo puts a lot of bloatware on the system which will certainly affect the performance. A clean install of Vista should yield better results.

Quick question: Does your W500 have switchable graphics? There are a lot of misconceptions regarding that. Some say it has it, and others say it doesn't. I called Lenovo, and they said it does not. They are also known for making mistakes, so does it have switchable graphics?

 

Great. Thanks for the review.

 

Great review. I love my Thinkpad as well. But I disagree with you. I find the Thinkpad design very attractive. I don't like the silver plastic or brushed aluminum look much. All black is really cool to me. I really like the way you organized your review, very well broken out. I can see you have put a lot of work into it. Thanks. +rep to you.

 

Great review, thanks a lot. And +rep especially for the Viewperf 10 benchmark, you don't see that often but it's very helpful for workstation cards. From those numbers the W500 seems not too far from even the HP 8710W which carries a 3600M.

A question about the battery life : did you make some duration test?

 

i get 4hrs+ on linux with ATI card running on fully loaded for those whom wondering, i believe it wold 6+ on windows and all other things switched to slowest

thats a 9cell btw

 

Thanks for that.

But now I'm really confused. What's the primary difference between the T500 and the W500?

Since they both have the same integrated/dedicated setup, I should try to get my T500 order changed (it wasn't submitted/ordered yet).

 

Honestly, I would say the only difference is the screen and card preference.

If you want a notebook for school/work and gaming, you'd get better results from a T500 with lower resolution screen and Radeon GPU.

If you want to do CAD or other rendering programs, plus gaming on the side, and you don't get nosebleeds from staring at a 15" WUXGA+, then go for the W500.

I compromised and got a W500 with a WSXGA+ screen, because of personal preference. If I need more screen real estate, I'll get an external monitor later on.

Please realize that I'm not a computer expert and I could be completely wrong with the differences. There might be things that I wouldn't have a clue about.

 

Does the W500 weigh more than the T500? How about thickness? Different sources yield different results.

 

Thanks for the thanks and reps!

Mikee99 - I agree with you that there isn't any difference with Aero enabled or disabled but that's for regular users who don't do much 3D CAD work. Some testing and reason for my position below:
PCMark Vantage: 4060 run with Windows Aero disabled.



I also ran PCMark Vantage with Windows Aero enabled (Thanks to Mikee99 for bringing up this argument about enabling and disabling Windows Aero). As you can see there seems to be a marginal drop in score with Windows Aero enabled. I don’t know what the scale is for these scores so this drop could mean nothing or something. Windows Aero on 4015 points!



However, since I will be using this notebook for some 3D CAD work, it is recommended that Windows Aero be disabled. Windows Aero when enabled takes up significant GPU memory and horsepower ( http://www.spec.org/gwpg/publish/vista_paper.html ). In fact I should be disabling the Desktop Windows Manager too to get better performance but I haven’t found out how yet. Also because of this new architechture, one must also be careful when comparing the SPECviewperf 10 scores below to scores obtained with Win XP. Win XP doesn’t have the Desktop Windows Manager to hog up the GPU and so you will get higher scores.

You are also right about the CPU spikes when moving the windows around. The CPU spikes with Windows Aero enabled are half the spikes with Windows Classic enabled. I have found that these spikes go away when you disable 'show content while dragging windows' with both Themes/Appearances. Faster performance now!

Fire Snake - Don't get me wrong. I like the dark and quiet character of Thinkpads too. That's why I have stuck with them for over 7 years. I just agree with some people who describe Thinkpads as 'boring' which to me mean predictable but dependable.

Andrew72 - I've only run the battery once till it's almost flat. ~3 hours on Energy Star setting and 6 cell battery. Now I've set my battery to start charging below 20% and stop charging at 50% for battery longevity.

Hardware wise, not much difference. More GPU ram and I think you can definately install the regular graphic drivers for gaming.

Price wise, huge difference. The W500 is cheaper than the T500 for a similar configuration. Don't ask me why.

 

Mikee, how about some pics of the laptop itself? Everything else looks good. Btw, looks like you need to update your signature

 

Unfortunately, there aren't really any images out there comparing the T500 against the W500.

 

Are you using the stock driver? for a mobile workstation that's an unacceptable 3dmar06 score.

 

Great !! Thanks, lotsa people waiting on a review like this

and I was one of em

 

Feels like T61 and T61p, T500 and W500. If you know what I mean.

 

In my opinion, the keyboard of W500 is not as bad as you described. In fact, normal use, don't press too hard on the keyboard, the keyboard just works fine, no apparent "bouncing" at all. Of course, if the keyboard is as solid as the previous model, I would appreciate it.

 

Han - Yup, tests were carried out with the stock drivers. Do you have any recommended drivers that I could try out?

bencpp - I can tolerate some flex in the keyboard. However I cannot tolerate the fact that a Lenovo W500 has more keyboard flex than a Dell Inspiron 1200!!

 

ATI has been known about their poor driver support for awhile now, your best luck to try mod the desktop driver to notebook driver.
There was another W500 review, the 3Dmark06 score is higher than that.

 

What have you done while draining the battery? Was the 3h with the integrated card or ATI card?

 

Web surfing, emailing and writing this review.

It was with the ATI discrete card.

 

Cinebench scores added.

 

****! My prof submitted my T500 order. Oh well, it's still a good system. The only difference is the 256 as opposed to 512 MB VRAM.

 

Sorry to hear that. But the T500 is just as good.

 

Yeah, My 3Dmark06 score is around 3900 which is unacceptable. I hope ATI comes out with a new driver soon.

 

This review is what I wanted to see on the W500. Thanks for all the details, it will help my decision I'm looking for a reliable mobile workstation that won't replace my desktop but still needs to run Maya 2008 and other 3D/2D packages pretty well. I think this will be my solution because it doesn't have a glossy screen (gag me) and has the hardware at a good price compared to most.

So the W500 series IS fairly new? I don't have to worry about having a new model come out in a month and be remorseful of not waiting? I am looking to buy my laptop anywhere between now and the end of December. Any reason to wait until then?

 

2 reasons to wait is the drivers for ATI 3650. The benchmark performance is not what is advertised and possible dual screen display issues.

 

Another reason to wait. LED screen. But when it comes out there is probably going to be an extra premium on it so you'll have to wait for the price to drop.

Ah the infinite cycle of waiting for a better technology to come out. I am stuck in this rut right now.

 

Well I can handle just using the laptop screen for now so drivers/dual monitor issues are OK for now.

How much would you guess the LED screen would cost - $150~200 additional?

So the main advantages to an LED screen is potentially more even brightness, non-fading backlight and less power consumption?

 

Does W500 have Ultrabay? i.e. can I hook up an additional battery instead of DVD device? And is it worth it? Does anyone have any numbers on battery life comparing W500 with 6cell vs 9cell vs same setup but with an additional battery?

How does WUXGA screen feel? It seems to me it could maybe be kinda too much, and I am afraid that my eyes are gonna start bleeding after looking at those tiny, tiny pixels

So current W500 doesn't have LED screen? Any ETA on LED screens?

BTW, this forum rocks, keep up the good work guys!

 

Besides there is always a reason to wait, I'm also tempted to either wait for a LED with higher res or buy a T400 now. I have a WUXGA display on my current nb and it's darkness starts to suck me nowadays, even though it's a fine screen rearding viewing angles and there is nothing to complain when I sit in a mediocre lit environment.

 

i dont see a listing for W500, but check if there is T500 one it should work for W500 too if i'm not mistaken

andwelcome to the forum!

 

Updated with Issues and Fixes. Thanks.

 

My T61p came with the exact same monitor and I was shocked to see the date of manufacture was 2005 week 0. Is this really accurate? :S

One thing I notice, mine makes a bit of a buzzing noise from the LCD when the room is fairly silent. The buzzing is a bit louder when I'm running on battery power. Scrolling the screen with lots of text on it usually makes the buzzing more audible. Can you check yours to see if it has the same issue? Thanks!

 

Yes, this might very well be accurate. Others have reported similar things and there was actually a huge thread about it from someone who was upset at Lenovo for using old parts. Basically they just use what is on hand that fits the specs you ordered, whether it was produced today or 3 years ago.

 

I think your problem is related to the 'CPU whine' problem. See whether you can fix it with what I did: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=311572#Link4
See CPU whine fix.

 

Wow I guess my original diagnosis was wrong because the bios fix you suggested worked like a charm! No more annoying high pitched buzzing! Thanks for your help! Your attention to detail in your posts are amazing!

 

You're welcome! Bump for update.

 

Does changing this have any influence on battery life?

 

I believe it will but I haven't quantified the extent of the influence yet. My W500 is always plugged into the AC adapter.

 

I have the Viewperf benchmark installed on my W500. I run the benchmark but I do not get any results. It just shuts down. Do you know how to fix this?

 

I really hope there are new drivers for this card soon, because I'm prob never gonna CAD, but def looking to game.

 

You know you can just install the regular ATI Radeon drivers and you will be all set...

 

hmm I thought I read on the lenovo forums that doing that wouldn't work properly. Did you hear otherwise? Or try it?

 

I have not tried it with the W500. I was just suggesting it based reports of it normally working on Quadro / FireGL cards.

 

Awesome. Mine is arriving today. I'll definitely try it out and report back.

 

Just got it. The 'A' key on the keyboard is sticking, but otherwise, no problems, and surprisingly, NO FLEX.