What does Lenovo need to do to keep your business?

I'm on my third Thinkpad (T42->T60->T530). I'll probably look for a new machine in a year or so. While I like the better screen offerings of late, some of the other changes pretty much disqualify a future purchase. Mainly I need to see the discrete trackpad buttons come back... some of the CAD software I use is just too painful without discrete buttons. Real function keys are a must (for software development - I think the T-series still has these), I'd like to see the touchpad and keyboard centered (for the 5-series - I have no need for the numeric keypad extension). A 16:10 display would be great, but I can't see that happening.

Basically, a 'thinner, lighter' version of the T530 with an IPS display and current CPU/GPU would be perfect.

What do you want/need? Does Lenovo actually pay attention to these boards?

- Jay

 

Lenovo doesn't need to do anything. There will be other products to choose from if one doesn't like any of their products. Apple has a centered keyboard and 16:10 design. Dell's Latitudes and Precisions have discrete trackpad buttons, nice screens in some of them and simple to open, unlike some of the latest Thinkpads. HP's ZBooks are top of the line and feature nice designs but are costly. So if one doesn't limit him/herself to one brand or one product, there are other products to look at.

 

Stop consumerizing ThinkPads. I would gladly pay 1500-3000 for a ThinkPad of _60/61 series build quality. I honestly want back the X tablet with the swivel hinge. The nonsense of the Yoga/Helix is not an X tablet.

 

Bring back the back/forward keys.

Oh, and stop trying to make Thinkpads into non-Thinkpads. That's another good way to keep my business.

 

No they don't.

 

IMO lenovo is on the right track and I would like them to continue on that track. The quality of the current ThinkPads has greatly increased compared to the X220/T420/T520 disaster and I'm also happy to see that they are trying new innovative things. (like the adaptive bar)

I also like the fact that they listen to customers. The integrated trackpoint buttons are widely disliked, which is why dedicated buttons will be returning with the next series. (confirmed by lenovo employees)

Also, if the T1 and W1 rumors are even remotely true, then even 16:9 haters will be satisfied soon enough.

At the moment, the only thing that really bothers me is 16:9, so if I ever buy a new ThinkPad again, it better have 3:2.

 

The only change that I like to see if a detachable battery in thinkpad yoga. Actually I will get my fifth thinkpad T440p soon.

 

Wow - first I've heard about the buttons coming back... great news.

 

LOL @ "X220/T420/T520 disaster." Wow. Please explain how that entire line is a disaster and how the current line is much better. The next person might say the opposite so we don't know what is actual and what is based on one's own biases.

They listen to their bottom line, not to the customers. If the sales keep on going up and up, would there be an incentive to dramatically change course? Maybe enough customers have complained so that's why they are changing. I wouldn't exactly call that "Listening to customers."

 

As always this is just my opinion, but the X220/T420 series never convinced me. From small things like the cheap plastic used to the mediocre build quality or IMO ugly design, I was never happy with my X220 or T420. There are quite a number of things that I dislike about those ThinkPads, but I won't go into detail here. If anyone is interested in details just send me a PM.

Even if that is the case, we still get what the majority wants anyway, which is a good thing nevertheless.

 

OK I agree that the new Thinkpads look nicer, but that doesn't excuse their functional deficiencies. I can tolerate some compromises like getting rid of the latch, introducing the chicklet keyboard, having the battery divided into a sealed + replaceable portion, getting rid of the indication lights, replacing the thinklight with a keyboard backlight, or even moving from the 7-row to the 6-row keyboard. But when they do completely idiotic things like replacing the function row with an "adaptive" touch panel (as an extra row would have been innovative, but replacing the function row is idiotic), or slightly less idiotic things like putting out a clickpad that destroys the usability of the trackpoint, yet at the same time fails to meet the standards of the Apple trackpad that they tried to copy, basically resulting in a "worst of both worlds" situation....

What Lenovo doesn't get is that if I want to buy a Macbook, I'll buy a Macbook. In fact, by the time Broadwell comes out, if I can't buy a real Thinkpad I may be forced to settle for a real Macbook instead - not a fake Macbook like what they tried to do with the current gen models.

 

The Adaptive Keyboard is just used with one model currently. Lenovo often does something like that to test the market - releasing one model with a certain feature, and see how the reactions are (One example where this feature was adapted to all ThinkPads: The original X1 and the chichlet/backlight keyboard | One example where the feature wasn´t adapted: The glossy display of the original X1).

I still don´t understand how the ClickPad actually destroys the TrackPoint experince. It has two real flaws compared to the dedicated button:
- You can´t press two mouse-buttons at the same time
- If you use the TrackPoint with two hands, you will have a problem if you want to lay down your thumb

And thats it. Everything else, is just about the same as the dedicated button: Still the same basic position of the button zones as with the old button, still about as much pressure to press. Of course, you will need some time to get used to the slightly different feeling. But that does not destroy the usability of the TrackPoint by any means. It has some real benefits over dedicated buttons, since you can set you own button size - if you take a look into the driver.

And anyway, it is also not important. The feedback from many customers was obviously negative and the dedicated buttons will return. Which I dislike, but, oh well, it seems the market decides in the end...

 

Well, the biggest problem (for me), besides my original comment here, is that if Lenovo were to continue the functionality changes to the Thinkpad line, making it more consumer-class (specifically taking cues from Apple), what makes the Thinkpad special anymore?

For me, that answer would be "Nothing", or "It's Thinkpad-black?" My point is, I don't see a reason to buy a Thinkpad anymore because what made them special when compared to the Elitebook and Latitude was the TrackPoint and the associated buttons with it. Without those, why would I care about Lenovo's Thinkpad? Latitudes tend to be cheaper, and Elitebooks (imo) offer better build quality. I love my Thinkpads to death, but I'm not going to be a mindless fanboy for Lenovo; if I don't like what they're doing, I'm not handing over my money. Thankfully, enough sane Thinkpad customers protested the new touchpad that Lenovo's now back-tracking on that decision.

 

^ And that is exactly the reason why I haven't bought a new ThinkPad. They keep eliminating features that make it "Think" and thus all the new ThinkPads I see are not real ThinkPads. And no I'm not one of those crazy ThinkPad zealots, I liked my X220t despite the fat battery and excessive bezel, I hated my X201 with a passion. The _20 line of ThinkPads are the last I will buy personally.

 

Amen to that one.

 

That 2nd point was a huge issue with me, as when I'm mousing around with the trackpoint I'll often have both my thumbs on each of the 2 buttons. And since there's only 1 physical button under the trackpad, it can't accurately detect which thumb I'm actually pressing down. Also, as soon as you touch the touchpad, it disables the functionality of the top "buttons", and only lets you use the bottom "buttons". So that totally messes with the experience for those who like to use both the trackpoint and the touchpad. Aside from that, it makes too much noise, the button depresses too far, and I found that it often doesn't accurately detect which button I'm pressing. I tried to get used to it, I really did, but I couldn't. I also have another friend with a T440s who gave up on the trackpoint and just uses the trackpad.

I think if they had used the same technology that Blackberry did on their Storm 2, it might have done the trick. So I'm not entirely opposed to the clickpad idea, it's just that their implementation of it was horrible. The original Storm also had a crappy design with only 1 button under the screen, but then the Storm 2 fixed that:



Lenovo should check that out if they want to keep the clickpad design. It would actually solve the first problem as well, since it would allow you to press 2 buttons at once.

 

A lot of CAD software requires dragging things while clicking one of the buttons. I've tried this on some touchpads and it was very difficult... I don't have access to a T540 (or comparable) machine to try it on, but I can't imagine it being as easy as it is with dedicated buttons. I have tried a number of trackpad-only machines, though, and, just for general 'clicking' it's less easy/consistent than having the buttons. Even Mac's are less convenient, and usually Apple does a great job with that sort of thing.

 

I find the new clickpad means that it's much trickier for me to do everything with one hand (ex. left click with right-hand) - though I might be able to change that in the driver as you noted - and I need more force to click. Plus, the palm of my finger has to be there or everything is recognized as a left-click. The new touchpad is fine (the surface/2-finger scrolling/navigation is great), but depressing the whole pad still feels odd to me. A more normal clickpad would be fine, though I'd still prefer discrete buttons over all else. That would be the ultimate Windows trackpad for me. I guess I'll live with it and resort to tapping rather than pressing down, particularly since I can do 2-finger tap to right-click (I had to do a registry edit on the x120e, but I could've sworn it defaulted to that on the newer t440s driver).

I don't actually mind the rest of the recent design choices though, save for the tons of latches inside the newer machines when opening them and the F key experiment on the new x1 carbon (I hate that with a passion). One slight qualm I have - whose idea was it to swap the media keys (which I use all the time) for Windows 8 function keys? I wouldn't have a reason to use them even if I were running 8 - and I'm running 7 on this t440s, so they're even less helpful.

 

Though I've never used it, I can't foresee liking the new trackpoint set up. My X220 will meet my modest needs for some time. Hopefully, when I'm ready to upgrade, this will be straightened out.

 

Ha! I'm totally stealing that for my sig line!

 

they've already lost me and I'm a huge thinkpad fan. I have a few w520 and t420 and I think I'll keep a couple of each since they have great battery life, they don't get overly warm, good keyboard with dedicated buttons, msata, large ram support, easy upgradeability. Just wish they were a little lighter with a bit better screen.

 

My thoughts exactly...

I've spent roughly $6K on two new non-ThinkPads in the last 18 months - the money that could've gone to Lenovo had they not changed the keyboard layout - and will keep on moving in the same direction(s), while advising my customers to do the same.

Vote with your wallet. That's all you can do. Period.

 

I'm in the same boat except I haven't found anything yet to replace, it's a difficult decision to be honest, just tempted to buy an older model, but I will need the warranty service for my travels, which I don't think anyone has mentioned, this has been a huge selling point for thinkpads in my opinion. T61p is holding up though as a good temporary machine.