What happened to Thinkpads all these year?

I broke the screen of my T60p a few days ago so I was looking to buy a new Thinkpad to replace it.

However, when I stopped by a local store, I found that the current lineup was simply unbuyable. The sales kept promoting the X1, which is such an overrated piece of junk, boasting a low res glossy screen (what's up with all the glossy screen these days?) and crappy keyboard. The T420 etc. all had the 1366x768 screens. I don't see a point to buy a quad core processor since all I do is browsing and my old core 2 duo is fast enough. Nor does the 120gb increase in hard disk capacity mean anything since I can always have an external hard drive to store my data.

And then there is this X220 that they claimed to be the best thinkpad of all time. It has a low resolution short screen, and is even heavier than my X200s. ?

When I read the forums, blogs, and so forth, I became kinda furious over the comments. 'If the X2 improves its resolution to 1600x900, it will be my next thinkpad'. Seriously, I was on my 1600x1200 T60p four years ago, so a 33% reduction in vertical pixels counts as an improvement?

Why is there no one here to criticize Lenovo for its counter-productive 'updates'? Can anyone explain why Thinkpads have gotten so unusable these days? Any alternatives?

 

If you customize them online you get more options such as resolution and dedicated video and the ability to apply pretty large coupons. Yeah big box retailers usually sell products based on cost and highest profit margins, hence why you see very few nicer computers at a store.

 

Well, I don't get the excitement about X1 either, as it's pretty much a non-Thinkpad on all counts. Just a consumer laptop with Thinkpad sticker ( glossy screen, mutilated keyboard layout, not replaceable battery, no dock, limited ports, HDMI video etc), perhaps trying to appeal to consumer audience.

But T420 and larger all have 1600x900 as options. And I'm yet to see a better TN screen than 1920x1080 option in T/W520. If lo-res screen is acceptable, X-series are great Thinkpads too and IPS screen is an option again. And all are cheaper than ever too (and 16:9 screens are apparently cheaper than other aspect ratios this season).

 

It's not about money. Even if they offer 1920x1080, it's 120 pixels less than my old T60p, and I remembered I read about a 2000x1500 option available on the old T60p. What I need is vertical pixels. All documents and books are designed to have a larger vertical than horizontal height. I just want to look at an A4 page without scrolling. Lenovo thinks that I am asking for too much.

Moreover, the huge bezel on the top and bottom of the T520/ T420 is so ugly. Other manufacturers are producing frameless screens, but Lenovo keeps increasing the frame size to 1/5 of the total height. That's absolutely ridiculous.

 

This is pretty much my take on it too.

The X220 has a *slight* loss of vertical resolution (compared to the X20x line-up), but the same vertical resolution as all of its other X-series predecessors (X6x, X4x, X3x, X2x).

The T420 has an option for a 1600x900 screen.

The X1 and "Edge" series are just IdeaPads with different logos, so I'd ignore those.

The W520 and T520 offer one heck of a nice TN panel.

Regarding the "island" keyboards appearing on some models: it's different, yes. But as someone who cares far, far more about keyboards than any person reasonably should, I actually think it's pretty good. I'm not new to the laptop keyboard game either (my favorite is that on my 750cs), and when I ran into RSI a while back I spent a good long while learning about mechanical desktop keyboards -- so I'd like to think that for me to at least find a keyboard acceptable would require it to be pretty good. The scooped island keys on the IdeaPad/budget ThinkPad line are some of the best island keys I've used, and are (IMHO) one of the few parts of the Edge/X1 line worthy of the ThinkPad name.

Obviously keyboards are a pretty subjective thing though, so everything I said should have a big flashing "YMMV" after it...

 

It's the consumers. They're the majority in this market, and they couldn't care less what the aspect ratio is, as long as the numbers are big. LCD manufacturers cut costs this way, and Lenovo has next to no choice in this. A lot of us want our high res tall screens back. =/

You know, if we listed screen sizes in height x width, maybe we would've gone to super tall screens.

The large bezels are there for structural integrity. "Frameless" screens are a illusion anyway; put a giant plate of glass over everything and it looks borderless.

 

It just isn't good enough. 1200 pixels is barely enough for reading documents, so any cut from that is unacceptable.

My opinion is that consumers should protest against companies like Lenovo instead of resorting to pusillanimous euphemism to disguise their discontent. Yeah, there are options that are slightly more bearable than others, but we shouldn't settle, especially when the previous models are so much better.

If Lenovo doesn't change I'll just be buying second handed T60ps and they aren't going to get any business from me anymore. That's the deal.

Nice profile pic colonel, but I don't think the majority of consumers think that way. I'm not asking for frameless screens, but my T60p/ X200s had 1/5th of the frame size than the T420s, and they seem much tougher than the newer thinkpads.

 

Heh, thanks.

I've heard stories of average people saying "widescreen is better because we have two eyes put side-by-side" or something of the sort. Maybe consumers don't think tallscreens are better, maybe they accept widescreens as not being worse. At least for media consumption. LCD manufacturers will exploit this to no end to increase margins.

The lid material changed from magnesium alloy to carbon/glass-fibre-reinforced-plastic. This allows for greater wireless signal penetration and increased impact absorption. However, IMO, this necessitated the larger bezels to compensate for the different physical and mechanical characteristics of the materials.

The magnesium alloy case had rigidity, which was necessary then to protect the fragile and brittle CCFL tube. Now that we're on LED backlights, we can use a shock absorption paradigm instead. This contributes to a softer and more springy feel in the lid, where it may be construed as flex (and technically is). That said, the flex is by design and is the shock absorption element of the structure.

 

Apparently it is. It's cheaper to not provide the rare options (and thus having to test much fewer possible configurations). Perhaps such options still exist if you contact Lenovo directly with a significantly large order.

And it's probably what made Thinkpads so affordable now. They used to be significantly more expensive than average laptops. Now they're priced the same, and ofter even cheaper (after coupons etc), than comparable consumer devices, while having much better keyboard/finish/expandability/trackpoint etc.

And jump to 16:10 panels to 16:9 is pretty much everywhere. Even HP workstations with Dreamcolor screens, that are MUCH more expensive than Thinkpads, have become 1080p in the latest reincarnation. I'd prefer 16:10 or better yet 4:3 screens too, but the majority of users apparently do not care the slightest that the screens are becoming smaller and smaller while keeping the same diagonal.

Ugly or not, if not the bezel, Lenovo would have to squeeze the keyboard or trackpad or drop Trackpoint control buttons. I'd rather see the extra half-inch of the vertical bezel.

 

How can you be so blind? Why do you have to defend Lenovo all the time? If they use a 4:3 screen then the whole height of the laptop can be fully utilized, getting rid of the bezel as well as keep the full size keyboard, control button and a full-sized palm rest. The entire logic of 'using the bezel to save the keyboard' is preposterous.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that I was criticizing previously. Why is everyone trying to excuse Lenovo? It is NOT justifiable to cut the screen height and increase the bezel size for some fancy glass fiber that nobody cares about - and making the laptop more rugged is probably not the original intention by Lenovo anyway. It is NOT acceptable to keep the large bezel 'in order to keep the control buttons' - if they stayed with 4:3 screens there would have been no problem. How come everyone too afraid to give some constructive criticism? Come on, it's only an online forum, I don't even care if big brother Lenovo is watching.

 

My vision shows me that, unfortunately, 16:9 screen is what all manufacturers are selling right now, including HP DreamColor series, and probably even Apple will switch to that next year.

Yes, if Lenovo had 4:3 screen it would be great and awesome. But, there are many more things that are important for me in a laptop than just mere aspect ratio, especially as I have Windows Taskbar at the side of the screen (the reasons why Windows team put it at the bottom by default are mostly invalid now).

Thinkpads are not perfect. Far from it. There are fewer options now than there used to be in IBM days, TN screens are from the bottom of the barrel (except FHD), black electrical tape treatment is needed so that battery fits well, the dock has only some of the needed ports, etc.

I would love to buy a 15" laptop with 1600x1200 IPS from Lenovo, or any other manufacturer, but which also

a) Has durable build without glossy parts and/or cold metal and/or sharp edges where my hands touch it.
b) has a decent trackpoint (whether trackpad is present or not I don't care)
c) permit to install at least 2 internal hard drives, and connect external ones through fast port (eSATA/Thunderbolt/USB3 doesn't matter)
d) has a decent keyboard, with Home/End/PgUp/PgDn block of keys in the traditional orientation
e) has dock as an option
f) has external keyboard with the exact same layout as accessory, so I don't have to switch when using it in the office
g) can fit 16GB RAM, so can run VMs on it
h) does not weight a ton (8 pounds max) and can work on battery for at least 2-3 hours (not browsing and watching video, but running few VMs and Visual Studio instances)
h) priced south of, say, $2500

I'd buy that. But who's selling?

 

That's what i am doing, and i have recently started to simply build my own machines by using the best components of the T6x generation of Thinkpads. The build results have turned out to be very attractive and desirable machines for a certain kind of users.

While the T60(p) has less than desirable mainboard options, which only let you choose GPU power combined with noise, mostly outdated CPU options, and a ridiculous memory limit of 3GB, it still featured the very best screen in the industry, with the 15.1" machines being equipped with BOE Hydis UXGA Flexview displays.

But if you replace the T60 mainboard with a much nicer 14.1" T61 Penryn based mainboard and T8x00/T9x00 CPUs, one easily raises the RAM memory limit to 8GB. Together with Intel graphics combined with a T500 fan one gets a cool running, silent, and long living system with very decent performance for a standard working scenario. Adding a suitable SSD would then be the icing on top.

No, this is not cheap to do if one prefers new components available from after market sellers, but it is IMHO a much better investment to build such a machine than giving away one's money to Lenovo for a cheaper but inferior counter value.

 

4:3 screen and IPS, was the main reasons why I bought a 6 year old laptop last week, the T60p.

 

The lack of 4:3 screens isn't Lenovo's fault. They're getting their hand forced by LCD manufacturers. The entire industry is at the mercy of panel producers. I want a 1600x1200 W520 as well, but I don't see that happening anytime soon unless we all want to send letter bombs to LG or something drastic like that. The profit-driven world sucks. Deal with it or join a revolution.

 

Low profit margins in the laptop industry is what killed Thinkpads and other higher high-end laptops.

But then the end-user benefits having to may several times less for a laptop now than say 5 years ago.

 

1600x900 in a 15.6" is working pretty well for me. It's great for doing side by side windows. With Windows 7, it's now easier than ever as well.

 

IBM's ThinkPads didn't use anything special as far as TN panels were concerned. Or at least none of the ones that I've owned did.

As far as the battery "fitting well", I trust you have taken into account thermal expansion/contraction in your assessment... right?

Regarding the dock: the definition of "needed ports" varies over time. At some point, people who require, say, RS232, will become a minority, and the port will be dropped. If you're in that minority, well... that's unfortunate. But that's how the technology industry works: standards change.

 

That's commendable effort. Have you been successful in your undertakings? Do you mind posting a guide/ photos of how this can be done?

I've read from another forum that QXGA screens can be fit onto the T60p. Do you happen to have any related experience?

I think the T60p has most of the characteristics you mentioned, apart from the 16gb ram.

 

Totally agree that 4:3 screens are better and Lenovo should listen to customers. I'm sure there are plenty of us who are willing to pay $2500 for a T410s sized machine with QXGA IPS + modern specs (good battery life, i series processors, ram, ssd).

I'm also interested in the QXGA mod. Do you know where one can get the screen? Also, do I need a 4:3 T60p to do the mod? Or will the 16:10 T60p/ T61p also work?

 

QXGA is a 4:3 LCD, and the widescreen with the 16:10 are not compatible in size with 4:3 LCD. If you are really one of those who do want this mod. Here is what it will look like after you done it:

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Sony now owns the company that IBM started to make the QXGA IPS LCD.

I would imagine you probably need to pay somewhere close to the 4000+ dollars for a machine that is as thin as the T410s with an UXGA or QXGA LCD. But given the fact that Sony did not sell that many Z series with those 13 inch FHD LCD, i imagine you won't see Lenovo jumping at the idea of this.

Anyway in the current situation you are not going to see 4:3 coming back.

I mean IBM had the T220 and T221 desktop LCD with WUQXGA resolution in 22.2 inch format, did you see them ever getting released back to the market again?

IBM used its PC business as a proof of concept mule in the latter years to prove that their technology can be produced for mass market and that there is a demand for it.

Lenovo with its limited engineering and leverage with parts supplier would never match IBM in its engineering prowess, but whether people could or choose to see this fact is a different matter altogether.

 

How did they manage to do this? Have you tried it before, lead org?

 

nope and i don't like the look of the machine with this mod.

Follow this thread.

forum.thinkpads.com • High quality IPS/AFFS display panel for ThinkPad R500

 

The T60 on the youtube video link seems to be a perfect fit. I assume that you can achieve the same if you buy the QXGA screen and the T60p 4:3 version? Just wondering if anyone here on this forum has done it before.

 

I removed some comments and messages. Keep it civil, guys.

 

forum.thinkpads.com • Installing QXGA screen on T60p

have a read of this thread. It can be done it will involve some fiddling around, if you have the time it is a good little project to do, and you will learn a lot from the hands on experience. You would certainly appreciate the effort that goes into making a laptop.

 

I might be one of the few that likes wide screens, but I miss 16:10 aspect ratio. I wish they would have a 1920x1200 screen, which would have the advantages of both the 16:9 and the 4:3 that people seem to talk about.

 

Do your other hobbies include attacking windmills?

Look, the fact is the computer market doesn't support what you are asking for. I think it sucks that 1366x768 is the default resolution on things like 15.6" laptops but that's what it is. I'm not sure I would want 4:3 to come back. I've had 4:3, and 16:10 laptops. The 15" 4:3 is basically too large to use on a plane because the limiting factor on the airline is the depth of the base and height of the screen (top of screen in the seat back, base of the laptop too close to type). Even my 14" 4:3 (Dell M20) was tight on a plane. I do miss the 1400x1050 in a, for the time, small chassis. However I might be willing to trade that screen for a 1600x900 14" screen since I'm more likely to want side by side windows than maximum vertical space. I understand the want for 1200 vertical pixels (I've had 1600x1200 and 1920x1200 screens) but in the end those days are gone... happily with their departure we also have seen much cheaper computers.

In the end you sound like a crotchety old man complaining that modern cars aren't as good as your old '71 Chevy Nova. Well, in some ways you are right but the fact is things have changed. Overall we are getting more for less these days but the price we pay is often fewer options for exotic, low take features. A guy who worked with the LCD screen makers once told me the market share of 15.4" UWXGA screens. It just about didn't exist. Pity since I really like my 15.4" 1920x1200 screen.

 

I may be a crotchety old man, but the lower quality screens Lenovo has is just one of the reasons I switched to a competitor that has better screens. Good enough for business isn't necessarily good enough for me. I want better options.

It seems the only vote that counts is the one that involves money. If enough people buy a competitive product, then maybe Lenovo will take notice. Until their growth trajectory slows and they start asking customers why they stopped buying, they will continue to offer whatever THEY want.

 

Yes, but Lenovo does not produce it anymore. And W520 has most of the characteristics I mentioned too, except the extra 120 vertical pixels (not IPS too, but still very decent), and is much faster overall and lives on battery longer. So it's still most (but not all) characterics.

My point was that okay, I stop buying Lenovo out of protest. What else can I buy new, and from who, that will give me more than 1080 vertical pixels in a comparable package, and that will not fail at least a couple of the points? 17" MBP? No thanks.

 

or you can view this as an opportunity for entrepreneurship.

 

OP: What you're asking for now doesn't exist anymore in the laptop market as a whole. So really, your comments would apply just as well to any computer manufacturer currently making new (and therefore 16:9) laptops. In that vein of criticism, I don't think there's any lack of people who share your opinions.

In the meantime, you buy whatever computer suits your needs best. I prefer newer computers with much better battery life, and I frankly don't mind 16:10 or even 16:9 all that much (provided the latter had HD+ or FHD display options in 13"+ and 15"+ laptops, respectively), so I own a T500 and X120e. If you want high-res 4:3 displays, recognize that your options are limited, but by all means, go get a T60.

 

Some of their screens may be lame but that's probably true of others as well. I can say the W520's FHD screen is very nice as is the X220's IPS screen. Since I haven't compared them side by side with all the competitors I can't say for every model.