What is Happening to THINKPADS

Fellow ThinkPad Owners I have a burning question to ask you all. I have noticed that ever since Lenovo Took Over the ThinkPad line, Quality has slowly been declining. While the ThinkPad lines are still built to higher more roughed standards then your typical HP/acer etc...I was dismayed to witness the slow decline of the original Standards IBM created with the Thinkpad Line. I understand the mass market Consumer now expects Laptops to be had for massively cheap prices, and we all know the only way that can happen is a decline in quality. Don't get me started on the issues I have had to deal with on many of the T60/61 fans they are utter crap, and I have had to replace many for people.

Today I went out to look for a new THINKPAD over at an Authorised THINKPAD reseller here in TORONTO. I was appalled for instance when I tried out the keyboard's on 3 T500 line models. The keys are not as good as my OLD T40 and T60, and to I also noticed the Keyboard Flexed tremendously. I realize that Lenovo has 3 Subcontractors that are responsible for the manufacturing of there keyboards, Chicony, NMB etc... But the flex coupled with the less than stellar keys is unacceptable. Remind me why I am paying extra Dollars for the THINKPAD line? On a positive note there X series Line had a stiffer back-plate and better keys. I am tired of this inconsistency with Lenovo, THINKPADS were built on the reputation of being SOLID, durable and quality machine.

Fellow members Can you give me a few pointers on what makes the current THINKPAD line better than the other brands, what features distinguish it from the rest of the heard and what do you think of SONY's High End TZ. They seem to be built well(sadly with SONY's Inflated price) Hell SONY's VIO TT Line, assembled in JAPAN and made from carbon fiber is the way in My IHO that I expect a laptop to be produced, Of course SONY was Asking $2000 for this little gem.

 

Been there, discussed that. Those display models may have been older. Lenovo has taken steps to resolve the keyboard issue that first appeared on launch of the newest platforms. These steps involve a brace under the keyboard, reverting back to the T61 style keyboard etc. If you buy one and aren't happy with it you can call Lenovo and request a T61 style keyboard.

 

Who's paying much a premium for ThinkPads these days? If you know how to work the system you can get them as inexpensively as any notebook from Best Buy or the like and they're still better than those machines in my opinion. There's still a few premium machines like the T400s, W700 or X200t if you want to pay more. This is the reality of buying a notebook today. Every dollar they raise prices costs them sales. They have to balance price and features. The T4x had the best keyboards of the more recent ThinkPads, but the rest of them were pretty fragile due to the thinness.

 

And X301.

 

X301 are on sale all the time now too, though the optical drive sets you back $200.

 

I agree that the quality has greatly decreased, he/her/it has a point on the slow decline. It may have been an unnoticeably slow decline but a steady one for sure. I think consumers may be to blame, considering no thinkpad ad's in the early-mid 90's when they were conceived ever depicted the mainstream as using them. It was directed towards professional businesses and corporations that needed simply but well designed, easily serviceable and reliable mobile computing. IBM really built the name up and before Lenovo came into the picture very rarely designed a model that users were utterly displeased with. Lenovo seems to want to make technology that was only really intended for the business user available to the mainstream for a relatively very low price. I blame Lenovo marketing and the mainstream consumer for this. Consumers want the quality and feel of the ThinkPad for exactly the same price as a not as well made Dell, so the gap between the two or the makers in general is getting smaller and smaller because the consumer wants things cheap cheap cheap and could not or did not want to fathom the reason ThinkPads were a premium product that was a step above everyone else.

 

Well you could also look at the building up of business brands from HP and Dell. In my corporate IT experience thinkpads are not viewed as the epitome of business laptops by regular users.

Also you have to look at total cost of ownership, perhaps Dell and HP are bringing really good 3 year business leases that provide satisifying support contracts.

But could just be lenovo's management too.

 

I agree on "who's paying a premium"...these days, Thinkpads are the same or cheaper than comparable HP and Dells. I can't see why anyone would by those when you could have a Thinkpad.

As for keyboard, I had the one on my T400 replace, and they put in a Chicony, and it's the bee's knees.

Every other keyboard from all other manufacturers suck in comparison. I use to think all keyboards are the same, but after using the Chicony, I can tell you it makes a difference.

 

Nobody is, that is my point, you used to pay a premium but it really payed off getting a ThinkPad in the long run because you could keep it for a long time, with a similar Dell or HP it may not have lasted that long but was cheaper but could've bought a decent ThinkPad with the money you spent fixing the Dell or HP. This is why corporations started using them, the price was high but that is why they ordered in bulk, because the price most likely drops when ordered in large palettes. That and the cost of operation was lower than that of a Dell or HP or Acer, i'm not knocking those companies by the way. Now the gap is getting so thin between quality and utter crap, that it's not worth buying a ThinkPad for the actual quality anymore.

 

I was talking about Dell and HP Business lines, which are not crap. There is more competition.

 

Those of us who are willing to pay $2000 for a laptop built with extremely high quality components are a small group and our purchases would be nowhere even close to numerous enough to keep Lenovo afloat.

Lenovo makes its money selling to corporate customers. And, throughout the past few years, the corporate buyers have largely shifted to a "lowest price wins the contract" policy - in many ways quality be damned. If that corporate customer has a choice between buying a fleet of $2000 laptops that are perfect, or a fleet of $1000 laptops that have a couple flaws but are still very good - which are they going to choose?

Lenovo has to be able to compete at the price points of its competitors, or else it will go out of business and there will be no Thinkpads. In order to bring prices down, it has to bring costs down, and they have to cut some corners in production. I think they do a tremendous job with quality for the low prices we see today.

So, don't blame Lenovo - blame the majority of its customer base for demanding lower prices at the cost of some qualities.

 

That world doesn't exist anymore so you'd better get used to it. Technology changes so fast these days it doesn't pay to spend that kind of money on any kind of PC/notebook. Back in the day when ThinkPads cost $3k you bought it as investment. Down the road you could sell it at a reasonable price. Now as soon as you buy it, it takes a huge hit in value and the next thing's coming down the pike.

 

Oh i didn't say i was complaining or pissed off about it, it's just a small annoyance to me.

 

this is the way society is going, we are becoming a 'throw-away' society, everything is dirt cheap, and quality reflects. I am convinced there is no high quality anything anymore. especially cars and computers.

 

Quality of the Rolls are still good under the Bavarian, while Ferrari and Alfa Romeo have improved dramatically compared to those 30 or 40 years ago.

Quality costs money.

 

Sony? You’ve been blinded by its looks and little else. Their boxes might win beauty pageants, but their support is atrocious—and I don’t mean their technical support staff:

• When I owned a high-end (carbon fiber) Sony, and decided to give Windows x64 a spin, Sony didn’t know what x64 was—let alone have drivers for it or have a plan to make drivers available. Lenovo has had Windows 7 ThinkPad drivers out for a few months now—and the product hasn’t even been released yet.
• The fan on my Sony sounded like a miniature airplane was always nearby. I almost never hear the fan on my ThinkPad.
• Want to update your Sony BIOS? Better hope you’re running a version of Windows they support—otherwise you’re SOL. Lenovo provides ISOs for all their BIOS updates (no supported OS needed).
• Want to run a non-Microsoft operating system on your Sony? Good luck—they’re the most proprietary vendor out there.
• Hoping Sony will integrate a hardware manufacturer’s mainline driver enhancements into the customized driver they produced for their customized hardware? Keep hoping—Sony doesn’t care/they already have your money. Unless the sky is falling, Sony tends to do little more than make their original release driver available for you to download.​

Your experience with a computer is more than the sum of its parts. If you want an overpriced consumer-focused pseudo-business-class notebook that women find pretty, buy a Sony.

 

Thinkpads have gone down in quality, but they are still among the best in the industry. And OP, Sony's quality isn't perfect either. I had the horror of owning a Sony laptop that was utter crap in build quality, falling apart the day I brought it home, and crapping out after only 3.5 years. Now I have a Thinkpad T61p. I did use a T23 a while ago, and it was superb in many ways, and I think of this T61p as just as good.

Aesthetically, I hope the rest of the lineup (in the future) takes cues from the T400s. That one has got to be the sleekest and best looking Thinkpad of all time. And I think Thinkpads are way more solid than anything Sony makes, at a better price.

 

I just came home for fall break. Just got my t500 and i think its really awesome =D

i may not know way too much when it comes to the past thinkpads, but this laptop is surely much better than consumer grades

 

I own a T400s and this is definitely one solid laptop. I can hold the laptop one handed and there is absolutely no flex whatsoever. I can only compare to the Dells (Inspirons, Vostros and Latitudes) and my old Z61p, but the T400s is by far the most well-built. Of course, its not an entirely fair comparison since there is a price difference. The screen on the T400s is really lacking though, and I really wish we had the old FlexView screens of the past.

I think the perception that Lenovo's quality has decline is due to their lower cost of entry. The quality of the T400s and the X300 are still comparible to the Thinkpads from the IBM era.

Edit: Oh and speaking of Sony.. man I had a Sony TR3 before and I had to send it in 3 times to replace the hard drive and motherboard. The machine is still running today, so it could have been a lemon, but their support was among the worst I have encountered. I was forced to purchase their recovery DVDs ($40) when it was clearly a hardware failure. The hard drive died while running both Linux and Windows, yet the customer reps insisted a clean recovery would cure all ailments.

 

Sorry for going off topic, but Nvidia256, do you mind me asking where in Toronto you were able to see some Thinkpads in person? I live somewhere near that area and I've been dying to get my hands on a T400s or an X series but haven't been able to find anywhere that has them on display.

For what it's worth, I don't know if Lenovo's quality has been in decline, but from my experiences, it's still worth every penny paid for a Thinkpad especially considering the decline in price.

 

Sony... i use to love their product when it was high quality, their support was atrocious, luckily their past product quality was good. Now i don't buy sony, since their products quality is declining due to cost cutting, yet their product price remains pretty much the same.

 

what does IHO mean?

 

In my opinion.
In my honest opinion.

Is what I think he meant.

 

I think it's IMHO (in my humble opinion).

 

Apple product have mostly replaced Sony products as the new cool and hip.... Sony products are just not cool anymore, nor are their product particularly innovative or user friendly as it had been.

The only sony products that i have bought recently is a HD hdd video camera, psp and PS3, and a decent set of MDR-F1 and Sony Qualia 010 headphones.

 

If you customize a Thinkpad it seems they nickle and dime you more than other OEM. Plus the upgrade options are usually more expensive. I remember when they were selling BR with the W500 but that upgrade option cost 3x the amount others were charging for it. lenovo's coupons actually bring the price down to the competition but are still normally more expensive.

 

The Blu-ray drive for the T500 is a writer whereas most others are readers, which is why it cost significantly more. The BD-R on the E6400 is priced similiarly. I wish they made a BD-ROM for ThinkPads. If they cost with coupons what other machines do and are better machines, which they are in my opinion, isn't that a better deal?

 

Yeah but it really makes you feel like you have to jump through some hoops just to make the price comparable. I priced out a x301 yesterday and received $1K+ off the price and still felt like it was a bit much, yet much better than it use to be.

 

ThinkPads have the strongest laptop display hinges among business class machines. Period.

What do you expect from BEEFY SOLID STAINLESS STEEL hinges?

It never fails to impress when I lift my X61 by a corner of its opened display with one hand to demo its ruggedness.

Not only does the display not break, the hinge is so solid that the display remains at the SAME angle as it was opened with ABSOLUTELY NO FLEX - at all!

Now THAT'S solid build quality for you. Don't even think of trying this stunt with any other laptops apart from Toughbook-grade mil-spec'd machines.

Oh and APS HDDs on rubber rails, rubberised, non-slip magnesium alloy casings/rollcages, best-of-breed solid, satisfying keyboards are quality that remain ahead of the pack. Now if only they have options for better screens & speakers...

 

Before you get defensive of the brand, he/her/it was only stating that the quality has and is still slowly and steadily decreasing. To me this issue is all relative when you put the other contenders into perspective of quality. To some people they are fine buying a Dell because they realize they will never just throw it into their bag they'll be careful with it. They are still doing a good job especially considering prices have dropped so much in recent years.

Edit h yes and also, before you call me a troll again...

 

I was impressed by the E series Dell hinges. I wouldn't pick up the laptop in the corner like I do my x200 but the hinges were still very strong on both an E6400 and E4300 that I have used.

The keyboard is no comparison though.

 

What is it with keyboard flex btw?

It isn't an indicator of build quality or durability. An indicator of build quality or durability would be a MilSpec test, which the Thinkpads can now claim.

 

Well the SL series also is certified for that low level military test too...

The keyboard issue is more of a management decision that proved to detract from the quality of the product.

 

You can get the old T61 type keyboard if you call up Lenovo service and say your keyboard is substandard, they will send out the new keyboard at their expense.

 

this isn't necessarily true.   not everyone's system will qualify for a keyboard exchange.   some systems already shipped with T61 keyboards and therefore wouldn't qualify.   plus, it's up to the technician whether or not they want to have the system returned to the depot for inspection or whether they want to send out a new keyboard.   calling support does not guarantee a new keyboard will automatically be shipped out.

 

If they had a better screen my Thinkpad would have been upgraded earlier this year.

 

Yes yes i got a PM from you regarding this, my friend was using my laptop at that time, he wrote it, so i will have a word with him.

 

I'll chime in here a little bit. In my opinion, the build quality of the Lenovo-made Thinkpads is just as good if not better than what came from 'ol Big Blue. Lenovo made a very smart decision when it retained the design staff after buying the brand... and that quality shows. I found a local retailer who was kind enough to let me bring in and play around with my 15" IPS T60p next to a T500... and in overall build quality both machines were about as good as one another. Yes, the screens and minor issues with the keyboard are annoying, but Lenovo can't really help the screen issue. The manufacturers have them at their mercy, so really bad-quality TN displays it is, sadly enough. The keyboard issue was solved pretty quickly, which is a testament of how Lenovo actually listens to customer feedback. I've seen a lot more horrible service from plenty of other computer manufacturers.

Either way, I'm sticking with Thinkpads as far as my notebooks go. My current combination of a T60p and an X60s will last me quite some time, but when it's time to upgrade I'll be looking here again.

 

got it.   thanks.

 

I've played with the new T400 at work and they look great. Compares well to my T61. I also have an R series and the build quality arent as good on them.

 

My T61 feels way more solid than my old T42p, it is a brick. It has rollcage and I can pick the T61 one-handed with no later 'consequences' like the motherboard flex on the T4x series. So I think the quality has improved a lot, and it's a nice balance between price and quality. Let's see in a couple of years if my T61 is still working as my previous IBM'ers.

 

Some people have blown minor issues out of proportion.

Lenovo does what it thinks is best for the company while minimizing costs and maximizing profits. IBM couldn't even keep it afloat back in the day which eventually forced them into selling its PC department to Lenovo. My T61 was probably at least 2000 if not 3000 CAD back in the day while I got it for 1000 CAD taxes included.

Personally, I wouldn't mind calling the IBM CS for a replacement keyboard because my machine would have cost at least 1000 bucks more had it still been IBM. My opportunity cost of calling them is by no where near that figure. Moreover, it feels so much more sturdier than most of the consumer laptops priced around 800 -900 CAD.

 

I'm happy that business laptops in general have gotten cheaper, otherwise, I may very well have stuck with a consumer-grade laptop instead of getting my T500. I know I wouldn't have been able to pay the ~$3000 that my dad bought his T42 for years back (it was company-paid), or even the ~$2000 that he paid for the T60 at his current company.

Most, if not all, the solid Thinkpad quality has been retained, especially in the higher-priced X-series, which I find well worth it for the huge price decrease.

 

the T61 with the Intel X3100 are very reliable, i have dropped one of the machines that i had several time, cracked the heat vent, the magnesium chassis, the top cases and it is still going. But i wish i have had bought the accidental protection, since i am so hard on this laptop. This T61 looks more abused then the T40 that i had.

Regarding Thinkpads, it is in the same category as Dell Latitude and HP Elitebook, but by far Thinkpads are the most easiest to upgrade, strip apart and do minor services compared to either the Dell or HP. Anyone whom used HP laptops know how to take apart their laptop, and 80% of time you will break some stuffs when doing it.

 

They may be in the same category but the truth is that for the price they are still very well built... also this topic has been argued since Lenovo took over the PC division from IBM heavily, each and every person will have different opinions.

 

I take it back after seeing this...

 

at the current AUD to USD exchange rate, i can get a thinkpad in USA cheaper than a SL or R500 second hand in Australia........

 

The comment "...thinnnest thinkpad ever" is the same as Apple's sales pitch for the MacBook Air...

 

It's just their business T line is getting way too main stream - widescreen, etc.

There is no inherent problem with that; but they continuously are failing innovate, nor trying to improve upon age old problems, e.g. poor CCFL display, wobbly battery, and pathetic speakers. While the quality has been slowly improving, especially cooling. The others are catching up too fast, Thinkpad doesn't refresh too frequently neither. As one could say, 'Nothing is good or bad but, by comparison'.

While on the X series, and for T400s, the quality is really good. That's at least going somewhere.

While ppl associate quality with thinkpad traditionally, they've been around for so long, the same design is getting rather outdated - some like it as its subjective. But since there are certain near new T400 configs that are on eBay, starting at about $550, with P8400, WXGA+ CCFL, and 3 years warranty - it just makes me wonder how cheaply these things really are, and how far the new management is milking this brand...

 

wow thats a very nice price for the T500, where did you find that pricing?