Why ThinkPads like T420 are more expensive?

My current laptop is a 4 yr old Inspiron 1501, 15.4”, 6.4lbs.
It’s now time for a lighter new one, less than 5 lbs, 2nd gen core i5 or i7 for photo/video editing on top of the general purpose web browsing and MS Office.

I don’t understand why the business laptops are so much more expensive than the consumer ones.

For example a fully loaded XPS 15 with blazing speed, quad core power, high end dedicated graphics card with optimums switch, finest screen, and best in class audio goes for $1050
i7-2630Q, 2GHz, 4GB Ram; 500GB 7200 rpm, Skype certified HD Webcam, DVD, Widi; nVidia GT525M 1GB; FHD R+BGLED, JBL Speaker
While the bare bone T420 is about the same price? i5-2520, 2.5GHz, 2GB Ram, Webcam, 250GB 5400rpm, HD+

I’ve been looking at Latitude E6420, ThinkPads T420 and X220, Elitebook 6460p and comparing them to XPS15 (too heavy at 6.4lbs) and Y470

I need help here, thanks.

 

I believe you get what you pay for. Before I purchased my R61 a few years ago, I needed a reliable laptop that could take a beating (having 2 little kids). So far me, the extra money was worth it for the durability reasons. Not saying that a regular dell (non business) isn't reliable, but most consumer laptop's can't take a beating like the thinkpads. Plus they just work. I have accidently dropped mine a few times, spilled orange juice on it, and the kids use it daily. It has a loud fan and a few nicks and chips but it still runs like a champ (maybe a little slow but a clean install would fix that).

It is hard to swallow the price increase at first. I am looking to upgrade to a T420 and the price is setting me back a bit. I had been eyeing a Thinkpad Edge especially considering how cheap they are and what I would be using it for (viewing photos, internet, word). At the same time though I don't know how durable they are and I believe they are not built like the T series (could be wrong on that though).

I almost flinched on a loaded XPS last weekend but I was reminded how well my thinkpad has held up and realized for a couple hundred more it was a no brainer. Customer support has also been superb (at least for me) with Lenovo which is not something I can say about Dell (again at least for me).

Just my two cents....

 

It's simple:

They're better engineered, better designed, and better built.

ThinkPads aren't designed to look shiny or appeal to the Starbucks crowd.

ThinkPads aren't intended to provide ZOMG TEH PWNZ0R gaming performance.

ThinkPads aren't built to be the cheapest laptop you can buy.

ThinkPads are meant for work. ThinkPads are built to work.

I sometimes demo my ThinkPad in some dramatic ways. A couple times I've been using my machine when a question along the lines of "Why do you use a ThinkPad" is asked by someone seated near me. Sometimes it's a Dell user, spoken with curiosity. Other times it's a Mac user, spoken with disdain. My demonstration: I close the lid (suspending the laptop), then in one smooth motion brush it off of my lap and onto the floor. Then I pick it up, open the lid, and resume working. "That's why."

Look at it this way, would you rather pay $1500 now for a nice ThinkPad and use that for four years, or purchase a $500 laptop now, a $500 laptop to replace the first one when it breaks a year later, a $500 laptop to replace that one when it breaks, etc...?

If you go with a cheap Dell or other budget brand, you might be surprised at just how expensive "saving money" can be.

 

Two words: Build quality. While the current XPS is actually built pretty well, it doeesnt come close to a thinkpad. Same goes for dell business models.

 

Wow. That's very theatrical! I hope you don't do it too often. How much can the ThinkPads take such beatings? It's amazing.

 

Overall business notebooks are better built, better designed and more reliable than consumer grade notebooks. The big 3 (HP, Lenovo, Dell) still carry parts for very old laptops (good luck finding a 3 year old Gateway part). Many parts are backwards compatible for business notebooks. Business support is way better than consumer support. And personally I think business notebooks look better than consumer models.

 

In the consumer market you pay for something that works now (e.g. shiny toys from Apple). In the business market you pay for something that will work 2-3 years from now just as well as it does now even if you abuse your machine to some extent.

 

Well my t400 has taken a few falls while running and it hasnt needed a single service call. Do that in a consumer model and they may just be sending you a whole new computer.

Agreed. More time is spent on RD (at least it seems so) and you can feel it once you transfer from a consumer based notebook to a business model. You may not win popularity or fashion contests at the local coffee shop, heck you might even get a few chuckles or smug looks from those with "fancier" computers. But when you sit down well before another user at the coffee shop and when their computer runs out of battery or gets coffee spilled on it you get a free show as they panic. Sadistic? Maybe.

 

I am not a gamer so I guess the build quality and inner depth of the ThinkPads more than compensate for the frilly extras of the cheaper ones

Hey YOTR, which ThinkPad Edge are you checking out? The E420s lookings stylish and light. Does it measure up to the regular T's???

 

I was looking at one of the closeout models. It looks like you can get one nice equipped for around $600 or less.

I like the looks of the new E420s but I still don't know if it is designed to take a beating. Plus it isn't that much cheapert than a T420 (at least the new models don't seem to be). I know a lot of thinkpad users state that the Edge line is not really a thinkpad. I don't know if that stems from the build quality or just the look of it compared to the original thinkpads (like the T series). Maybe someone else can chime in on this.

 

Well my ThinkPad got thrown out of my boot via the rear window after a car smash (lorry driver clipped my car and smashed me sideways ). It landed on a ditch but I just picked it up after the accident, took it home with me and the ThinkPad booted it up as if nothing happened. I'm typing on this very laptop as I speak.

Though I don't wish to do that often I can tell you that... it hurts!

 

Please post a video. And do the dramatic demo with your brand-new ThinkPad. Seriously.

Which one did you do those demos with? The X301? The T43p Flexview? The "really mint" T60? The "no screen" T400?

 

I know this has been answered, but I went through the same thing. I have a fully loaded XPS 15 i7-740qm system and am replacing it with a T420.
Basically for the same reasons, need a light laptop with long battery life and good CPU power (minimal GPU power since the only game I play is League of Legends).
Build quality between a Thinkpad and XPS is not comparable. The new XPS is all plastic, there is no metal inside the chassis at all. The cooling system of the XPS is cheap, Dell designs and builds these things as cheaply as possible.
My XPS has great warranty, 2 year completecare, and I've had to use the warranty services 4 times since I got in November! I had a Thinkpad T61 in undergrad that never, ever needed support, the best warranty is the one you never need to use.

 

Damn! Even if I was super confident that my ThinkPads could survive such treatment, I'd hesitate a zillion times before I made such a demo. Most likely, I'd sweep off the questioner's machine onto the floor and when it breaks, I'd say, "That would not happen to my ThinkPad".

Of course, I would have scoped out the nearest exit and make a dash for it for in all probability, by that stage, my life would most likely depend on how fast I can evacuate myself from the place!

 

I've done things to my T400 that would make anyone with a laptop cringe XD. Dislocated the fan once, but nudging the fan assembly fixed it.

Just an hour or so in a lecture hall, I left my X100e precariously perched on the seatback in front of me so I could fill out a form. While reaching for it again, it fell off and cartwheeled. Kept using it like nothing happened.

Got four of my friends to convert to ThinkPad from consumer-land throughout my last year of high school with my T400. Leading by example, I suppose

 

Wise words, indeed.

Are there great things other than dropping, like 2 feet, onto the floor? (I mean accidents, not no-compensation dramatics.)

 

2 feet isn't much at all, by my standards.

 

So let's toss it up high and let it free falls! All the magnesium must be good for somethin'...

 

Throw it in the air like you just don't care

 

Film it please! Let's all share in your expression of wanton pleasure!

 

ThinkPads have been tested by the government for heat, shock, and humidity, which have been reported by a number of reviews to be some of the very few that are.

http://lenovolaptop.amzons.net/2011/03/26/watch-lenovo-mil-spec-testing/


http://www.slashgear.com/eight-lenovo-thinkpads-hit-military-rugged-standards-2335468/

 

You either have a very very small laptop or a very large boot to have a thinkpad fall out of it.

Still glad to hear youre alright and to a lesser extent the thinkpad is too. Being flung out of a trunk is just one of the many testiments to thinkpad build quality.

 

So glad I'm not the only one doing this demo on a frequent basis. One such event, I realized mid-flight that the floor was concrete. Only time I ever broke character in a Thinkpad demo - I thought it would kill my old X41 for a half a second, but it just left a scuff on the concrete. My X201's already taken an intentional fall to silence a co-worker - and a few unintentional falls as I use it on public transit.

My first laptop was a Thinkpad, and it was a quality machine. I've been an addict ever since, but in moments of weakness I've tried to defect to Toshiba, Dell, and most recently Apple. I don't mind consumer grade machines, but consumer grade machines don't like me. When I purchased my mother's Dell Vostro, the keyboard lasted less than a day in my hands before keys began jumping ship! The Thinkpad and my old work issue MacBook Pro were the only machines that even came close to keeping up with my lifestyle. The only reason I didn't defect wholeheartedly to Mac is due to a dislike of all things shiny, flashy, or stylish, and my longtime devotion to the idea of "Any color, as long as it's black."

Thinkpads have the perfect brew of power, portability, and robustness to fit the bill for my day to day use. One can settle for less laptop and probably still get by, but I'd rather spend the money the first time and have the device that does the job for the long haul.

 

Some say they are better built, engineered, are sturdier and can withstand harsher treatment and have better customer service than consumer grade laptops.
Its not universal tho, there are consumer laptops that happen to be on par with some of the business laptops and there are ones that are even better and other way around, far worse than business laptops.

But what I do wonder about is why dell price their Latitudes cheaper than comparable ThinkPad models? While latitudes are all metal and thing, Lenovos are all plastic, except for the bottom roll cage. T420/E6420 come to mind.
Wheres the catch? Looks to me that Lenovo is simply milking ThinkPad brand as hard as possible.

My 2c.

 

yeah the price difference can come from a significant number of intangibles. Putting aside the specifications, Thinkpads, Elitebooks, and Latitudes will cost more than their consumer laptop counterparts because they offer higher quality materials, more durable build quality, value-added software (Thinkpads have Thinkvantage which is based on PC Doctor, and it has full system diagnostic capabilities), and better warranty service.

I have a Dell M1330 at home and it's had to be repaired 2 times due to the graphics card (8400M GS). Dell repaired the system because it had a warranty, but it was a huge pain to get them to agree that the graphics card was defective. They had me reinstall the OS despite the overwhelming evidence that the OS had nothing to do with it, and when they replaced the motherboard, the replaced it with more faulty GPUs, never even contemplating switching it to Intel graphics to save the system from needing future repairs.

They have really lousy warranty service, whereas on my college campus, I had my Thinkpad repaired as soon as the part shipped, and my Thinkpad was repaired onsite. They didn't question me or tell me to reinstall the OS or other useless crap that won't help.

So if anything, you can't compare the systems solely on specs, because you may get a significantly misleading impression on the overall quality of the product. If I were you, I would look at getting some hands on time with all the laptops, I know you can't find these brands in stores, so you may have to find someone in your area to allow you to get some hands on time with it, maybe asking your friends if they know anyone. That's the annoying thing with these brands of laptops, you can't march into Bestbuy and look at the machine one on one. Probably one reason why people have the perception that PC laptops are low quality and Macs are high quality, because they can only see the cheap PC laptops in stores right next to the high quality Macs.

 

With a brand new ThinkPad? A heavier model, such as W510? Please make sure you have it captured on video in your next instance of frequent demos.

Interesting expression! It's your money: spend it as you wish! And bravely!

 

Lol actually it's quite a big laptop (15.4" R61e) in a very small boot!

 

if you're like a lot of users out there and replace your laptop every 2 years, and use it mostly on a desk, then spending money on a business grade laptop is a waste.

i buy business grade because i need my laptop to work. not just for personal reasons (long distance relationship much cheaper with skype!) but also because i cant do my job without one.

so it depends on what your usage is. is business grade better? reliability etc yes, bang for buck? not really. for example my sister is happy with a consumer grade dell with the next business day onsite warranty.

 

Remind me to resist the temptation to do a Thinkpad X series juggling video when I get home.

 

Resistance is futile.

 

@veer, the price difference maybe due to a number of factors:

1. There is a different business model.
2. Different sales volume would affect overall profit margin.
3. Dell sometimes have localised assembly factory that build up laptops from CKD kits. This would attract different tax rate, and depending on the volume of production and localised wage, it may work out cheaper.
4. Also, the cost of warranty support and distribution can be slightly different.
5. Finally, some laptops that is sold to the consumer market maybe sourced through third party suppliers whom have obtained the machine from corporate origin. This will affect the final price, as each reseller would have different price markup.

E6400 was a very good machine, but the E6410 and E6420 is a different beast altogether. I think you should test these machines before jumping to conclusions such as these.

 

Edge series seems to be fairly well built, maybe not as much as a T4x0 though. They lack the roll cage, but so do older Thinkpads and the SL series (of which included the SL300 that passed MilSpec). A lot of the shouts of blasphemy probably came from the chiclet keyboard, glossy screen, non-boxy appearance.

I really want to do that to my Thinkpad, but I own it and I don't want any risk since its a very important tool for work. I watched people who have company issue laptops throw theirs in the air, none have broken, and if one did, it would be replaced much quicker than mine would be.

I would find it hard to juggle laptops. They tend to be heavy and hard to grab. I would love to see a juggling video of Thinkpads though.

 

Well, to chime in for the OP, business-class notebooks like ThinkPads are significantly more durable and feature better after-sale support than most consumer-class machines. My T500 survived an 8-foot drop while in its bag with minimal scarring. I had to replace the LCD due to multiple dead pixel spots which appeared(they didn't entirely go away as I had hoped), but the notebook itself still works well. These are machines built for everyday durability and reliability, and it's something they excel that.

I may be thinking hard about getting an Alienware M17x to fulfill my gaming sweet tooth, but the X200 I take around with me every day will still be my constant companion nearly everywhere I go.

 

i dont feel like configuring one, but i dont believe that the XPS 15 in the OP is only $1050.

has anyone confirmed this?

 

Let's keep it conceptual, together with the theatrically conceptual.

Those people should go out more often.

I'm afraid it won't ever be posted, especially with one's own, brand new, expensive, fully functional ThinkPads. Three X201's in the air? You're talking close to, or maybe over, $4,000. You can feed a lot of hungry children with that much money.

This accident is realistic. I wish you and your T500 well.

 

Well I dropped a brand new Edge 15 that I bought for my wife and could only imagine the damage I did especially to the harddrive. Three months later it is chugging along nicely. It hasn't missed a beat.

(Sorry, this is in response to YOTR in post #10)

 

You get this from the Canadian site.

Select the $899 model and add $150 for 1920 x 1080 screen upgrade

XPS 15
Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, 64bit, English
2nd generation Intel® Core™ i7-2630QM processor 2.00 GHz with Turbo Boost 2.0 up to 2.90 GHz
4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR3 Memory
Standard Keyboard - English
15.6 FHD B+RGLED TL (1920x1080) and Skype-Certified 2.0MP HD Webcam
NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 525M 1GB graphics with Optimus
500GB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive
Elemental Silver Aluminum
Integrated 10/100/1000 Network Card
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 9.0
8X Tray Load CD/DVD Burner (Dual Layer DVD+/-R Drive)
JBL 2.1 Speakers with Waves Maxx Audio 3
Intel® Centrino® Wireless-N 1000
Microsoft® Office Starter: reduced-functionality Word & Excel w/ ads. No PowerPoint or Outlook
McAfee Security Center with VirusScan, Firewall, Spyware Removal, 15-Months
56 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
1 Year Basic Mail-In Service Plan
No Mobile Broad Band Selected

TOTAL: $1,049.99 ________________________________________
The Dell Online Store: My Cart

 

Three X201's - no way, no how. I can't afford that many notebooks, to be perfectly honest with you. Now that you mention it, I can't juggle to save my life, so putting my collection of X-es (560X, X41, X201) to the test probably isn't such a good idea. With my hand eye coordination, I'm likely to put out an eye on one of them. Yes, I am more concerned about injury to myself than to my beloved notebook.

However, lest I be called a liar, here's a fresh - albeit terribly lit drop test.
<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6Lsj9bQ-JLU?hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6Lsj9bQ-JLU?hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width='425' height="344"></embed></object>

That's a laptop I paid for with my own money. I'll go so far as to say that's the only laptop I'd pay for with my own money - at least the only brand. I know it will survive my day to day abuse,.

Edit: I didn't realize how dark my home office is/bad my camera is until I tried to take this video. Ugh.

Edit 2: It took three takes to get enough light that one could tell something was happening to the notebook, aside from vague crashing sounds in the dark. If you check my Youtube channel, you can see the first try.

 

Don't forget docking stations. Consumer laptops don't have docking stations. I can attach my keyboard, monitor, mouse, printer, scanner, whatnot in a smooth move and I do not need to unplug N cables to get the laptop off my desk. Yes, Dell and HP business laptop have it too. But only the business models, see the Dell E5420 and E6420. Durability: the E6420 is tested to mil-std so it must be quite durable as well but the ThinkPad series are a proven design. Oh and the recent biz laptops have slice batteries. Very few laptops have slice batteries actually but they are a marvelous concept. I just ordered a T420 with one

 

Not all business notebooks have docking stations. Mostly the mainstream and mobile workstations offer docking stations. Dell's entire Vostro line doesn't offer it as it's entry level business.

 

None of the above. I definitely wouldn't do this sort of thing with machines that I refurbish/resell or ever plan to resell.

Usually when I do it, I cheat (a good demo's a staged demo): I push it with both hands forward off of my lap, which means that it will land flat-ish from about knee height. I also make sure I do it on a carpeted surface, as that will prevent scuffs and scratches (not to mention help cushion its fall.)

I try to avoid doing this too often. And yes, it absolutely is theatrical. It's not exactly a formal test of durability -- just something that's relatively safe and showy (albeit in a pretty nerdy way.)

 

Yeah, and the Thinkpad Edge doesn't offer it either I think, same with HP Probooks.

 

Why on earth would you drop your notebook on purpose for a youtube video?

 

Five reasons among many:

Yamato Thinking Blog Archive Freefall (System On)
Yamato Thinking Blog Archive Open-Close Test
Yamato Thinking Blog Archive “Your ThinkPad Doesn’t Need Extra Clothing”
Yamato Thinking Blog Archive Have you ever accidentally dropped your laptop from one side?
Yamato Thinking Blog Archive “Coffee or Cola?”, that is the question.

This is how Lenovo designs and tests ThinkPads to make sure that the laptop you buy will work day-in and day-out whenever you need it to perform.

This is the kind of quality that I am willing to pay extra for.

 

'cause it's done in a way that he's pretty confident won't cause any significant damage?

 

I don't own a Thinkpad yet, but my dad has been using them for a long time. I'm planning to get an X220 though.

The way I see it, they're the biggest bargain ever. I mean, are they really that much more expensive? You have to consider that the newest processors come to the higher end models first.

The smaller you go, the more this becomes obvious. Just look at the ideapad U260 for example. Glossy screen, 2 year old processor, for 800 dollars. The Thinkpad X220 is one of the first notebooks to be getting Sandy Bridge, has much better build quality, better keyboard, matte screen, much better connectivity, for just a little more.

Even if you're not rough with your laptop, it's reassuring when you can tell that it's built up better. I know someone with a Toshiba Portege R500, and it is so fragile I would personally be scared to use it. Saw an R700 at Best Buy the other day, and I grabbed a corner of the screen just to see what would happen. It bent like cardboard, and I was honestly scared that it would snap off. I also had the chance to use an Acer 15" cheapo computer with a core i3, and again, the screen flexed so much it was quite scary.

 

And for a much more aggressive set of real-life demos (none of which I would have the guts to do with one of own machines!):

YouTube - Lenovo ThinkPad X201 crash test - Part 1
YouTube - Lenovo ThinkPad X201 crash test - Part 2
YouTube - Lenovo ThinkPad X201 crash test - Part 3

 

One the first one, I wondered how much dirt got jammed into the machine.

On the third video, it looks like the LCD screen might have a perm key impression or two.

I'll be happy to shoot youtube videos if Lenovo supplies the machine. I'll torture the crap out of the new X220, W520, etc.

Ever seen what a tesla coil can do?

 

I'm not sure. I thought that at first, but it looks like the key impressions on the left were dissipating after he opened the lid. I chalked it up to thermal difference (i.e. the keyboard is warm/hot, the outside is likely cold given the presumed location...) but who knows.

Uh... yes, actually. I had a science-filled childhood. Although I haven't seen what it does to laptops specifically...

 

Jeez my stomach wretched watching all those videos. I would never subject my ThinkPads to such torture.